File talk:Ahmed Mohamed Clock by Irving PD.jpg

Per WP:FREER, if the subject be adequately conveyed by properly sourced text

Per WP:FREER, if the subject be adequately conveyed by properly sourced text without using the non-free content then such image fails the free use rationale. That is the case in this instance. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:38, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. A textual description can not adequately convey what many third parties were reacting to when they commented after seeing this specific image of the clock. Dragons flight (talk) 22:41, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

This picture of Ahmed Mohamed's clock was the only image of the clock released at the time of the Ahmed Mohamed clock incident and as such played a significant role in shaping public opinion of the incident. That is disputed. The image that triggered coverage of this incident was a nerdy-looking 14-year old kid in a NASA T-shirt being handcuffed [1] - Cwobeel (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I said a significant role. I did not say it was the only thing that shaped this event or the first thing. Dragons flight (talk) 22:44, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

The clock is nothing that can't be described in words: a pencil box with an LED panel, some circuit boards and a power supply. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:52, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

The statue of liberty is a woman with a torch. Adequate description? No, not at all. I doesn't seem likely we will agree on that point. I acknowledge it is an unusual claim, for what is an unusual case (how many images does POTUS react to?). Rather than try to speedy it, how about a multi-party discussion somewhere? WP:Non-free content review might be appropriate (though often rather slow), or we could try one of the more general discussion forums? Dragons flight (talk) 22:56, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

A Statue of Liberty photo can be use in an article of the Statue of Liberty under free use rationale. But this is not an article on Ahmed Mohammad's clock. The article is about the incident, and not the clock. The incident was related to perceived racial profiling and islamophobia and the response it generated. - Cwobeel (talk)

So an article with "clock" in the title isn't significantly related to the clock? You are reaching. WP:NFC doesn't require that the article be solely focused on the image, just that the image is related to a major part of what is discussed in the article, which would seem to be the case here. Dragons flight (talk) 23:04, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

We will have to agree to disagree. I'll wait for others to weight in and for FUR patrollers to take a look. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:06, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Would you mind at least writing something in the "concern=" field on the DFU to quickly let third parties know what you are worried about? Dragons flight (talk) 23:11, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

This is not just a disagreement, it appears that several editors including Cwobeel are trying to remove information from Wikipedia simply because they don't want people to see it. The entire premise of the story depends almost entirely on the appearance of the device he brought to school. You can't discuss whether he was profiled or not without showing the clock in question. You are trying to shape public opinion by hiding certain information and repeatedly removing information from Wikipedia, and that is starting to look a lot like vandalism. I disagree that this is a non-free image not licensed under fair use. The Irving PD have stated this is public use and provided it to the press to describe the clock, the website also says the information is public. You can call them to verify the license but I think you already know you're wrong and have no justification for trying to delete the image. - 106.187.88.122 (talk) 23:20, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

what it "appears like" is that there are editors attempting to edit according to wikipedia policies, and an editor making unsupported accusations about other editors and their motives. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:00, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

It's an historical image used by both the PD to explain their arrest and the other section describing the Microntel clock components. The image is both a depiction of the clock as well as an image that was analyzed and given its own separate significance. It easily meets NFCC guidelines. --DHeyward (talk) 23:30, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

To be clear: This image is not deletable on WP:FREER as it is both a depiction as well as a discussion of the image itself. Each of those reasons are adequate for NFCC but having both makes this a no brainer keep. The PD directly used the image to justify the dentention. A completely independent source [2] analyzed the picture. Fair use covers both conditions independently. Just as the iconic Caitlyn Jenner Vanity Fair cover is usable for commentary on the Vanity Fair section, this pic is allowed for its use because of the discussion it generated in addition to its historical relevance. The objections are laughably weak. --DHeyward (talk) 02:33, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Fascinating to see that after strongly arguing and !voting for deletion of the linked article, your sudden description of this incident as historic. Way to go. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:44, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Not at all. But your only argument is ad hominem so it's a very weak delete. Per NFCC this image is notable for this article. If the article is deleted, so should the picture. Feel free to delete the article. If the article is kept, though, this image is an historical image needed for context as well as explaining the analysis of the clock components. --DHeyward (talk) 03:05, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

The appearance of the clock is a key part of the story, since at least one teacher seems to have felt that it looked like a bomb. I note that the editors arguing for deletion of the picture are also arguing for removal of accurate textual descriptions. In any case, no textual description would truly substitute for this picture, so WP:FREER does not apply. -- 120.23.86.86 (talk) 03:20, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Please be accurate in your statements. The article include all the comments made about the clock and analysis by different people based on the photo. So, here you have it: as we have detailed descriptions of the photo, WP:FREER applies 100%. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:29, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Please be accurate in your statements. Nowhere in the article is there actually a description of the clock, enumerating all its components and explaining how they are connected. So no, WP:FREER does not apply. -- 120.23.177.232 (talk) 05:56, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

That is actually more reason that the image doesnt meet WP:FAIR - there needs to be third party description of the image used. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:24, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

there is This [3] used the image. The picture itself being discussed is a completely seperate NFCC rationale and justifies it's use. There are two seperate and indepenent claims of fair use that meet WP's NFCC guidelines. --DHeyward (talk) 17:19, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I'll also note that the textual description of it being a Micronta clock arranged in a pencil box is also disputed. Visual representation is therefore not replaced with a FREER text version. --DHeyward (talk) 19:09, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

• Disagree with removal. If this image isn't important enough to the article to justify fair use, then no image here on Wikipedia is that necessary, and Wikipedia should just get rid of fair use, since some sort of written description is always possible. Getting rid of fair use here would make things that much simpler. They could just put up a notice that everything here is public domain. But fair use is allowed here, for a reason, which is for cases such as this one, as the image of Mohamed's clock project is integral to the story. Psalm84 (talk) 19:43, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
• Disagree with removal: Picture is worth 1000 words. Many people have analyzed the pic and said it looks like a bomb see other descriptions of the clock as a bomb or "parts of a clock in a box" in the WP article, talk page has long discussions of how to describe the hoax bomb in the lede with no agreement. Article is about the clock as much as it is about the boy. Raquel Baranow (talk) 04:46, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
• No to removal Image appears to be one produced by a police department under Texas law - and the Texas law is clear - there is no bar to reproduction here. Images which are not releasable include certain minors, police officers and bodies (a few other exceptions, but the drift is clear). See DHeyward's UT page for long version. Collect (talk) 22:19, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps good point, but still would require OTRS confirmation for a free-use license if not going by fair use. And a free use alternative could therefore be obtained. — Cirt (talk) 23:01, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

No one has even tried OTRS first

Has anyone even tried to go through the commons:Commons:OTRS process and contact the copyright holder of this photograph and attempt to get documented confirmation forwarded to OTRS-permissions that this image could be released under an appropriate free use license?

Failing that, it can be argued that a free use alternative could be obtained.

IFF no one has tried to do above, this image should be deleted as fair use, because a free use alternative could be obtained (via commons:Commons:OTRS).

Thank you,

— Cirt (talk) 18:26, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I doubt anyone ever asks most copyright holders of album covers or logos whether they would be willing to license it as a free image. I've never heard anyone interpret "could be created" to include convincing the owner to waive their rights. By that theory essentially any image could be made free, if you have enough money to buy the rights, but that's not generally the standard by which we operate.

That said, even though I think your logic appears to be a reduction to the extreme, I am willing to try sending an email to the Irving Police to see what they say in this case as there might be a better than typical chance they might agree. I won't be surprised though if they don't reply, or don't reply in a way that is helpful.

That leaves one open question, do we need Mohamed's permission as well (or essentially that of his parents)? in general, when photographing statues and similar art objects, Commons requires that licensing permission be granted by both the photographer and the creator of the art object being photographed. I'm not sure if that rule would apply in this case as well, but it might be helpful to ask at Commons. Personally, I have no idea how to reach out to the Mohamed family, so if we also need their permission, I am not sure how one could go about asking for it. Dragons flight (talk) 19:00, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, please keep us updated if you hear back from the Irving PD. But you are right that probably the permission of the artist would be needed, and the Commons page about that is commons:Commons:Freedom of panorama. — Cirt (talk) 19:02, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a "useful object" being a "clock." It is similar to taking a picture of a car or dress and the copyright office uses such as examples. The copyright of the photograph is is solely held by the Irving PD. That would be the only requirement. --DHeyward (talk) 06:36, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Best to go through first trying to contact the original copyright holder, the creator of the work itself. — Cirt (talk) 06:37, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

The origin is Microtel. The copyright and maskwork marks are visible on their printed circuit board. It's an unnecessary rabbit hole. --DHeyward (talk) 06:43, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Please, I kindly ask of you, to please read commons:Commons:Freedom of panorama and commons:Commons:OTRS to educate yourself about these matters. Thank you very much, — Cirt (talk) 06:44, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm familiar. As a "useful object" it's not covered by panorama concerns. It's why we don't need Microtel's permission to photograph their circuit board. The artistic component is the photographers placement of useful components. The photographer is the sole artist. Ahmed has not made a claim of expression other than an engineering construction of a clock. He has rights regarding replica's but not photographs. Commons freedom of panorama does not extend to useful onjects. Pictures of cars in photographic backgrounds do not get deleted as a violation. In fact, Jimbo's photo with Ahmed includes chairs and a table which are not covered by "panorama" as they are useful objects even if unique and artistic. Please stop. --DHeyward (talk) 06:55, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

The original artist is the 14-year-old boy. I see there is much argumentation on the article's talk page as to whether the device was even indeed useful as a clock, or not. Therefore it is simply a form of his artistic expression -- as a sculpture. — Cirt (talk) 15:39, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not art. It's a clock. He's said it's a clock. The discussion on the talk page is whether it's novel enough to claim invention (a patent issue, not copyright). No one disputes it is a clock. The Micronta circuit board is hand drawn. We don't need their approval to photograph it despite clear copyright and mask works markings. Cars are as artistic or more than this clock. It's not an issue. --DHeyward (talk) 16:26, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Okay, we can respectfully disagree as to our interpretation of whether or not it is his form of artistic expression. Still, the easiest thing to do would be to get him to take a picture of it himself, after he gets it back, and use that photograph. Therefore, a free use alternative could be obtained. — Cirt (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion to avoid multiple steps

Suggestion: Once the artist gets his work back from its current location, instead of going through a two-step-process, would just be easiest to try to contact the artist and get him to take a photo of his own work, and get that confirmed with a free-use-license via commons:Commons:OTRS. That would be the easiest method without multiple steps. — Cirt (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

A new image (hopefully of better quality) would be useful to understand the device, but in my opinion it wouldn't serve as a full replacement. The current image has historical significance that would not be captured by a new image. The image that the police presented to the public is useful to understand both their position and the subsequent public reaction to that position. In addition, a number of commentators have attempted to analyze what Mohamed did based primarily on analyzing that one image. (Some of that analysis is directly discussed in the article.) Hence, this particular image played a role in shaping the discussion which couldn't necessarily be conveyed with a new image. That's my view anyway. Dragons flight (talk) 12:34, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

What the "clock" looked like at the time of the incident is the important perspective. Letting him take a new picture of the controversial item (allowing him opportunity to change the presentation) would be worthless from a historical perspective. I must say the hoops which are being directed to jump through for this are quite astonishing. The appearance of the "clock" at the time of the incident is what makes this important. Fair use clearly supports this image from a non-reproducible historical perspective. Arzel (talk) 14:57, 28 September 2015 (UTC)