Talk:Christopher Langan

Article title

Should this article be at Christopher Michael Langan? That's the name on his PCID and Uncommon Dissent papers, and on his e-book The Art of Knowing. Media usage varies from "Christopher Michael Langan" to "Christopher Langan" to "Chris Langan", but the first is how he signs his essays. Tim Smith 20:59, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

No one's disagreeing, so I've moved the article to Christopher Michael Langan, leaving Christopher Langan as a redirect. Tim Smith 20:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

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I would like to see references for these assertions, moreover what is the relevance of these to this already dubious topic. I removed the "pseudoscience" and "crank" - why did you remove these I thought they helped put everything into context - links from the "See Also" section as they provided no relevant information and amounted to mere name-calling. I added "metaphysics" as that is the discipline to which Langan has said that his theory belongs. It appears to me that the "pseudoscience" and "crank" labels are due more to Langan's politically unwise linking of the explicitly evolutionary CTMU with Intelligent Design (and thus in mainstream opinion, Creationism) than to the merits of the main line of argument of the CTMU.

That said, some of the characterizations of Langan's CTMU in this article seem to be more hopeful assertions than demonstrated facts. This article's characterization of the CTMU as mathematical is only partially borne out by Langan's published writings. The mathematics in the CTMU is only occasionally symbolic, rather it is generally presented in verbal form. Also, the applicability of the CTMU to any specific area of natural science has not been demonstrated or refuted, so far as I have seen. Enon 15:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The reason that I added the "Pseudoscience" and "crank" links is precisely because Langan's ideas are not science, and yet are passed off as such (if one reads the entries for these terms one will see why they fit): while his ideas have certainly not been demonstrated, they are actually fairly easily refuted by anyone with an understanding of what he is on about; the problem is that simply we don't bother, because we have more important work to do than write papers ripping apart pseudoscientific theories. While Langan may claim that his ideas are "metaphysical", they do not conform to the generally accepted norms and standards of rigour for academic metaphysics either, belonging more properly to the sort of "metaphysics" one might pick up in the esoteric section of a bookshop.

Perhaps "crank" is a little over the top, but I really feel that a link should be provided to pseudoscience, perhaps with a proviso included somewhere about how this is how some critics construe his work? If the purpose of an encyclopaedia is to educate, then surely one must allow the reader the opportunity to evaluate the merits of an individual's claims in the light of current scientific opinion, without being misled?--Byrgenwulf 11:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

This article is a biographical sketch. Aside from the obvious fact that the CTMU does not rely on empirical justification and therefore cannot be classified as "pseudoscience", nebulous criticisms of it have no place here.

Byrgenwulf, who hints around that he is an academic expert in the philosophy of physics, should know that in order to credibly criticize Langan's work, he would need to write a well-reasoned paper on the topic, attach his real name to it, and include it in his vitae so that it can be properly associated with him and the academic institution with which he is affiliated and thus exposed to rebuttal. After all, a CTMU paper was published some time ago, and this is how "peer review" is supposed to work. If Byrgenwulf finds the CTMU too "unimportant" to merit this sort of treatment - or if he does not want people to see how coherent his criticisms really are - then he should not be wasting his valuable time carping about the CTMU on Wikipedia, let alone in somebody's bio. DrL 18:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the disputed tags for well-documented items, like the fact that Langan worked as a bar bouncer or has a high IQ. These facts are discussed repeatedly in the reference articles. The fact that Langan owns and operates a horse ranch is common knowledge in the high IQ community. There are photos of his ranch at the megafoundation website as he uses it for get togethers. I would hesitate to link to his ranch website, lest that be seen as an advert. DrL 11:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, for a change, DrL...but would like to add (as I've seen this comment before) that for encyclopaedic purposes, consensus among the "high IQ community" counts for less than nothing.--Byrgenwulf 11:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Pop Sci

I have added dubious proviso links next to the suspect PopSci articles as per this mention of how they might be forgeries. Byrgenwulf 18:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

As previously noted, this is a legitimate source. There were two articles in the same issue. One was an article, the other an interview. The issue (October, 2001) should be available at a local library if you wish to check. DrL 19:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Merging

I see Mega Foundation has just been merged here. There is an article on Langan's other IQ club, Ultranet. It has even less merit than the Mega Foundation, and seems even more of an advert. Can it also be merged here? I would summarily do it myself, but I must confess I don't know how...although it would probably be a good skill to learn. Byrgenwulf 19:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Response (1) The Mega Foundation and the Ultranet are not "IQ clubs". One is a registered nonprofit foundation; the other is a project of that Foundation. (2) You are not in a position to pass judgment on the "merit" of Langan, his work, his Foundation, his fora, or the associated Wikipedia entries. Please try to understand this. (3) You are not in a position to "summarily" do anything related to the Wikipedia articles on these topics. Please try to come to grips with this. These misconceptions run afoul of Wikipedia guidelines in fact and in spirit. Asmodeus 17:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding point 3, Asmodeus, you are wrong. See WP:BOLD --KGF0 ( T | C ) 05:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC).

IQ

I've heard differing accounts of Langans IQ, ranging from a slim 140 to an impressive 195. Which is it? Are we cherry picking the highest number? Jefffire 12:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Where did you see this 140 figure? It is possible that Langan took a lousy IQ test that had a ceiling of 140. All the certified psychologists that have tested Langan, have speculated that he possesses an IQ that approaches 200 (15 points per SD). Regardless of the fact that the CTMU looks like the work of a 15 year old. CDiPoce 17:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Traditional IQ tests don't go up that high, and those that claim to do so are more dubious and probably measure different things, which is why I'm concerned. Jefffire 18:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

That's something that's been worrying me. Something doesn't add up here...the Mega test apparently has a "ceiling" of just less than 5 standard deviations. A standard deviation with IQ is 15 points, which means that it can only accurately (insofar as it is accurate at all) measure up to 175. I was shown a newspaper article about a chap who wrote the Mega test and came away with an IQ of 185. Which means there is something very odd going on about the reporting of scores here; I'm not sure quite what, but the whole thing is very strange. Byrgenwulf 19:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The reason why I said that psychologists have "speculated" 195 is because that IQ would have been extrapolated from a test. However, that does not mean we can disregard the 195 figure. They had made an educated guess, which holds more weight than us just spewing out lower numbers because of our own inadequacies. In the case of the Mega Test, I believe there was some ceiling bumping. CDiPoce 23:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, what we, as editors, think about the reported scores is completely irrelevant. WP:NOR. Report what exists in the secondary sources, which so far as I have been able to find is 195. If you can find a reliable source that says otherwise, add it, and cite it. --KGF0 ( T | C ) 05:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I placed two links. Note Langan does not control the website that those links lead to. Links are of scans and add color to the article. I also corrected a previous error (wrong link, oops!). DrL 14:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Errol Morris Documentary

Byrgenwulf, you are attributing comments to Errol Morris that I don't believe were stated by him. Please provide the source of Morris's comments. This was a terrific documentary that won an honorable mention for Morris at the Cannes Film Festival. As far as I know, a transcript does not exist. DrL 18:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Go here and hover your mouse over Langan's picture on the mosaic. Byrgenwulf 18:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't deny that it was "hyped" that way by the website; just that Morris never said anything even close to that. Please don't mislead. Watch the documentary. It's very good. DrL 18:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm calling for mediation on this one. Please discuss your changes here first. DrL 13:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

DrL, don't you understand? You don't get to decide what Morris said, Morris decides that. And on his own website, Morris makes that comment. I am simply quoting Morris. Simply because it is less than flattering doesn't mean it should not be included, especially since the documentary in question is being used to glorify the subject of this article; this is gross distortion of fact, made clear by the fact that the person who made the documentary describes the subject of this article in a less than flattering way. Byrgenwulf 15:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that you watch the documentary. If you want to attribute a quote to Errol Morris, then look for a quote with a source, signature, or byline. This is a piece of unattributed hype appearing in a rollover on a gif at a website that is not edited by Errol Morris directly. Please...that's hardly a source, particularly when WP:LIVING requires editors to be "very firm about high quality references". I think if you watched the documentary, you might see why Morris chose to submit this at Cannes. In the meantime, please be more responsible in your editing of biographies of living persons. DrL 15:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It is not unattributed hype when it appears on the website of the person who made the documentary in question. You have no way of proving who edits Morris' website, or who determines what statements are put there. That statement has all the qualities required of a reliable source. Therefore, I would suggest the following:

"In the description given of the documentary on Morris' website, Langan is bla bla bla (fill in text I had previously posted)."

Whatever can be wrong with that? It is the truth DrL. If that is what appears on Morris's personal website, that is how Morris wishes his documentary to be portrayed, not so? Byrgenwulf 15:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Byrgenwulf, there is no indication that this is Errol Morris's "personal website". It looks like the website for a production or media company. I would expect that Morris has little or no involvement in creating or editing the content. He is certainly not listed on WHOIS. The absolute best you could propose would be "In the description given in a rollover caption at www.errolmorris.com, bla bla bla " which is clearly unsourced and cannot be included in a bio per WP:LIVING. It is also insensitive, again per WP:LIVING. DrL 17:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It is the official website of his production company. It is considered a reliable source for statements made by the company about the documentary. --Philosophus ^T 02:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, it is in fact considered more reliable than a description made by a Wikipedia editor who has watched the documentary. --Philosophus ^T 03:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding recent reverts by DrL: the presentation of the text on the website is not relevant. It is the description given there. "Unsourced" makes no sense, since I am not claiming that Morris himself said this. It is, however, on the website of his production company. --Philosophus ^T 05:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:LIVING - you need a stronger source than this. There is no author listed at the website. No author = no source. But I'm sure you already know that. DrL 05:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The author is Fourth Floor Productions. They are a reliable source for a description of a documentary which they produced. LIVING does not override WP:V and WP:RS.--Philosophus ^T 05:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed "unsourced" and noted that the documentary itself is the primary source. I'm wondering where you found "Fourth Floor Productions". I can't seem to locate that. DrL 05:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

whois --Philosophus ^T 06:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

DrL, you still had the bit about "rollover gifs" etc. Please don't mislead in the edit summary or the talk page, because what changes you said you made are not the same as the changes you really did make. Byrgenwulf 06:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are complaining about. The comment does appear in a rollover on a gif. It's obviously hype. DrL 06:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's put it like this. There seem to be double standards afoot here. When I wanted it to be explicitly clear that Langan's claims to have a "sum over futures" interpretation of QM were merely mentioned in a diagram caption, it was decided that the exact location of that information should be in a footnote, but the information could be included.

Now, when it doesn't suit Langan, that kind of information is not relevant, or must be suitably coddled with dismissive provisos in the main text? Really, it can't work both ways to Langan's benefit. Nor is it "hype" just because it is a "gif rollover". Anyway, that is how the site is designed: the gifs make a "table of contents", with the descriptions of each episode appearing when the mouse is over the entry. It is clearly the description those people wished to give of their documentary.

Do not apply double standards, please, do not mislead, and please try to stop letting any personal involvement you might have get in the way of an objectively true description of the content of this article. Byrgenwulf 06:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'm getting your point, Byrgenwulf. I don't see any "sum over futures" reference on Wikipedia.

Btw, it's hype because that's what it is, not because that's what I say it is. It's not contained in the documentary, just for presentation on the website and, yes, as a gif rollover (that does make a difference). It's simply offhand and would never in a million years be considered a reliable source. I've been teaching research methods for years to people just about your age. Most of my students are probably not as smart as you but they'd pick this one correctly. Please don't pretend you don't know exactly how weak this is as a "source". DrL 06:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

In the CTMU article, when I wished to point out that the "sum over futures" claim was made in a diagram caption in order to make it clear how tenuous it was, it was decided that the location of the claim could be put in a footnote, while the claim itself could remain in the article unadulterated.

The information on that site is not "offhand". The page in question gives information on each episode of the documentary series. They could have decided to do it all "text-only", just a list of headings giving titles, with the short paragraphs describing the episode underneath. Instead, in keeping with the general "artsy" feel of the site, it is designed with pictures and the hover command.

The manner in which a website is designed should have no bearing on its reliability as a source. If you teach research methodology, you should know that much: layout may count in terms of giving an impression, but sometimes even the most sloppily presented information is valuable. The reliability of a source is determined by other factors, such as who created it. Since the people creating the source are in a good position to decide what a documentary they have made is about, the information should be included.

I also do not appreciate references to my age, DrL; my age has nothing to do with anything. If I were truly wanting to be objectionable, I could start making a fuss about WP:CIVILITY, but I shan't, because I don't think of myself as a petty person.

As a concession, then, why not put the "gif rollover" proviso in the footnote, like what happened with "sum over futures" in the CTMU article, where the "diagram caption" proviso was similarly shunted to a footnote? Byrgenwulf 07:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

My comment about "sum over futures" was sarcastic. The article was deleted ... and my comment about age was tongue in cheek, really, my students are all ages - I was just trying to make a point. I hope the edit merits a truce - for now - I don't think it's fair and I'd still like to see what the admin says. DrL 07:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Apologies if I took you the wrong way: things have been very tense, here, of course. Anyway, your previous edit is still slanted, because you are including unsourced information, as well as bias and opinion: "the declining state of the world". It is not an established fact that the state of the world is declining. It might be Langan's opinion, but Wikipedia is not Langan's blog. Byrgenwulf 07:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely - it has been tense. Please check your sources, and be absolutely sure about their content and authorship, before editing this page again. So will I. Let's both make a greater effort at NPOV. Thanks. DrL 14:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

<- unindent

unindent -> NPOV doesn't mean only including the positive parts of the description. Either the description is a reliable source, or it isn't. Since the consensus seems to be that it is, we need to include a balanced sample of it, not just a positive bit of it. It might also be nice if we could find a more detailed description of the documentary in a reliable source to add to the paragraph. --Philosophus ^T 14:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

• Absolutely. Just please check your wording so that you don't misrepresent the content of the source. Note that you were the one that originally introduced the quote that's on the page now. DrL 14:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

DrL, what makes it permissible to attribute the claim that Langan has the highest IQ in the world to the website, but not to use information from the very next sentence? Quoting the site directly, as I did, is not misrepresenting the content of it. Please try not to let any personal involvement you might have get in the way of the neutral status of the article.

I also think that distorting the purpose of Philosophus' actions like that is out of line. Byrgenwulf 14:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

If you are suggesting including an additional sentence, that's certainly reasonable. Please use an accurate quote, though. What else would you like to include? DrL 14:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the version which now stands is pretty much a verbatim quote from the website in question, so I cannot imagine what could be wrong with that. Byrgenwulf 14:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Sudden changes to errolmorris.com

As Anville noted, the text of the description on errolmorris.com abrubtly changed at about the same time that DrL changed her opinion on the reliability of the source and started insisting that the quote be accurate. This is really suspicious. DrL, did you contact the operators of the website about the text? If so, what did you say? --Philosophus ^T 15:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I would expect that word may have gotten back to them regarding how their website was being misused. I still think it's a poor source and the entire paragraph should be removed. Please just try to be responsible editors. DrL 15:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Truly, it is a strange day when "quoted" translates to "misused". Anville 15:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, do not misrepresent old content as being currently displayed at the em.com website. If they removed it, they probably felt it was not accurate. The link to the archive is there so why don't you give it a rest. DrL 15:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Either that or they received a legal threat, and decided that the easiest option was just to remove the material. --Philosophus ^T 17:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that. I think they just realized that material they had placed on the website as "hype" was being used for unintended purposes. A lot of companies do try to be responsible in that way. DrL 17:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Comparing IQ scores

Byrgenwulf, that is actually inaccurate. Marilyn's 200+ childhood IQ score is equivalent to about IQ 180 adult. IQ batteries for children are typically calculated on a different statistical scale (Marilyn took the Stanford-Binet at the age of 10). This is well-known. Marilyn actually scored lower than Chris on the Mega Test. I would make a neutral correction, acquiescing to probable exaggeration (again the passage is pure "hype" and nothing in the passage should be referenced, IMO), but I don't want to be accused of POV pushing. DrL 17:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not too sure I agree with that reading, DrL. Because while you are right about translating between adult and child scores, there are two other concerns here. First, it is unclear that the Mega Test measures anything like the same construct as the Stanford-Binet. Second, it is also well established in psychometrics that repeatedly taking a test decreases its efficiency, as you no doubt know. Now, it seems that Langan took the Mega Test twice, the first time yielding the absolute bare minimum for admission into the Mega Society; a host of people scored higher than him on his first attempt. The second time, it would appear that he took it under the name of his alter ego, "Eric Hart" or something like that, and scored five points better. Since that fiasco, I believe Dr Hoeflin has had to strongly discourage taking the Mega Test more than once, as many people were abusing the system to artificially inflate their apparent IQ. Don't take me for a fool, DrL. Not everyone is taken in by bluster. Since articles positively filled with bluster and tongue-in-cheek mockery are being used to play up Langan's glory and wonder, a little balance is perhaps called for here, don't you think? Perhaps all of that history pertaining to the measurement of Langan's IQ, and his antics with pseudonyms and things should be mentioned. What do you think? We can reference Noesis, the official journal of the Mega Society, the one which Langan received a court injunction to stop publishing under that name. Does that merit inclusion, perhaps, since it is easy and reliable to reference the findings of the Supreme Court? I would appreciate hearing your opinion about all that stuff. Byrgenwulf 17:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, reference to Noesis would violate WP:LIVING as the editor has a long-standing and very well-known dispute with Langan. Note that the policy explicitly states:

• Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject (see below).

DrL 17:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Comments regarding IQ testing

The whole IQ testing scheme is fraught with difficulty. IQ tests are inadequate. Attempts at "high-end testing have not been successful. For example, there was no restriction on retaking the Mega Test when it first came out so a lot of people took it more than once. After all, there was no time limit and specific feedback was not given with results. It quickly became compromised so probably the only truly accurate results were those early ones. Marilyn's score on the test came after she had been dating Hoeflin! How accurate could that be? DrL 13:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:LIVING

Before initiating a content dispute, I would like to see if there is any objection to simply removing the entire Errol Morris paragraph per WP:LIVING, which clearly states:

• Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject

The material, both positive and negative, is clearly hype and exaggeration. DrL 18:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You are very good at selectively quoting policy, DrL. This how the paragraph reads in full:

Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject (see below).

Since the website in question is neither partisan nor self-published (i.e. personal, like a blog, which is what the policy is talking about), it should be a valid source. Otherwise we just have your word to go on when it comes to determining what the documentary says.

Also, I see no reason why Noesis cannot be included, because the proposed information from it is not derogatory. It is merely the documented truth about Langan's claims (I have another source as well, but we'll leave that for now). It doesn't make Langan out to be a fool: it merely explains how he came to have the "measured" IQ that he does. I'm also going to include a bit about how contentious the method of measuring his IQ is, if that's alright: it is also interesting in general, I think. Byrgenwulf 18:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Please note that WP has already determined Noesis (and the Mega Society) to be a non-notable source. If it was non-notable enough for excision from WP, it is certainly non-notable here. As far as measurement of IQ is concerned, the discussion is probably more suitable to another article. In fact, if you do a little research, I believe that it is discussed already in a couple of WP articles. It is controversial and you could certainly reference that article from here. DrL 18:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No, Noesis was never established as a non-notable source. That is nonsense. It is merely not a third party source about the Mega Society. That is why it was not appropriate to establish notability for the Mega Society. But, by that argument, why not delete all the links to documents stored on the Mega Foundation site, since the Mega Foundation isn't notable enough for this encyclopaedia either? Byrgenwulf 18:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Notable or not, the editor has a long-standing dispute with Langan, making it inappropriate as a source per WP:LIVING. I'd be happy to request a third opinion on that. Please let me know if you would like me to initiate that discussion. DrL 18:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Minor additions

I hope no one will object to the factual inclusions, minor edits, and mention of the CTMU paper published in 2002. DrL 08:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Not really - I changed two words, for objectivity's sake, though! Byrgenwulf 08:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Questions for Arthur Rubin

Nice of you to stop by, but do you really think that you should be editing this talk? Admin or no, you seem to have some kind of personal involvement with at least one proponent of the CTMU. I wonder about the neutrality of your POV. You voted down the CTMU article without ever having read the paper behind it (which you admit below). You don't even seem to be able to answer a single question about it. Not very responsible, IMO. DrL 04:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Request for Clarification

The conversation above has been recreated here to illustrate the involvement of Arthur Rubin in this topic and show his insuitability as an editor of this page. It also speaks to a systematic style of editing that has been involved in the Langan article and led to the deletion of the CTMU article. DrL 13:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not copy and paste from editors talk pages in such a bad faith and disruptive manner. This is "disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point" WP:Point, and assuming bad faith. Don't do it. Jefffire 13:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment As long as Arthur Rubin, who was recently promoted to administrator here at Wikipedia, chooses to involve himself in editing this page (or any other Langan-related page), we need to be aware of any possible bias (non-neutrality) or conflict of interest to which this might speak. This is only fair to the readers of Wikipedia, who might otherwise be misled to the effect that Arthur is in conformance with WP:NPOV. As it happens, the dialogue in question clearly shows that Arthur is flagrantly biased against the CTMU and its author - he mistakenly associates them with "Intelligent Design" - and needs to recuse himself for ethical reasons. Until Arthur does so, this material remains relevant. Therefore, pending Arthur's recusal, I'm adding this LINK to his Talk page. Please do not remove it. Asmodeus 14:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Mass media is not an acceptable source for Langan's IQ, nor are self published websites. Find a WP:RS for this claim please, rather than repeating information a mass media sources has repeated without proof. Jefffire 13:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The mass media are a perfectly acceptable source for Langan's (or Marilyn vos Savant's, or anybody else's) estimated IQ. Estimated IQ is not "actual measured IQ"; Langan and many others are on record as saying that IQ cannot be reliably measured at this level. In any case, such claims do not pretend to be scientific or mathematical facts, but are merely statements about why the subject is considered notable. That Langan is considered notable for this reason is a well-established fact, and does not require publication of his personal scholastic or medical records. Asmodeus 14:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)