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• How can we distinguish between a serious commitment to ending bullying, and the feckless hand-wringing “we’re trying, but..” that has been so familiar by the infamous GGTF, Gamergate, Lightbreather cases? MarkBernstein (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

If nobody else asks the candidates, I will ask them directly "Are you willing to take serious steps to stop bullying of editors on Wikipedia? especially bullying directed toward women editors? Is this your number 1 priority?" I think this will help distinguish between those committed to a solution and the hand-wavers. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:55, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

A good idea. Last year, I asked the candidates what I thought were softball questions about civility and gender and I was astonished to see how many of them flailed about or responded in ways that were appalling. Gamaliel (talk) 19:08, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

• I think there are 7/15 slots up this time, unless there are some resignations... Carrite (talk) 19:16, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

"For 2015, seven current arbitrators will remain on the committee. The committee will continue to have 15 seats, leaving eight vacant seats with two-year terms to be filled in this election."

Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2015#Vacant_seats

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:48, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

There are seven expiring two-year terms, plus another arbitrator is leaving the Committee a year early which explains the eighth vacancy. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:29, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Correct, Euryalus announced that he or she will be stepping down at the end of the year. Mike V • Talk 00:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• The problem I foresee with this approach is that many editors will link "anti-bullying" to editors who promote civility which, to some folks, is a cardinal sin. You wouldn't think that encouraging civility and politeness, even in the midst of heated disagreement would be a bad thing but to some editors it's equated with a disparaging term, the civility police. This notion has tripped up many discussions and caused them to go off-track as some believe civility actually promotes censorship which is not the point at all. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:47, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • The decision to abandon enforcement of civility opened the door. That decision seems irreversible with strong support of most if not all, sitting arbitrators and the community. User:Fred Bauder Talk 03:22, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
    • @Liz: - We have to have faith in the community. Sure there are groups boys around here who like to joke around and don't intend to be obnoxious, but I believe the very large majority - even of the immature boys here - know the difference between joking around and systematically harassing a large part of humanity. The very large majority don't like bullying because they have, at times, been subjected to it themselves. Most people know the difference between right and wrong and are willing to act on it if they see the way forward. Have faith and respect the community.
    • @Fred Bauder: Perhaps the sitting arbs would rather not bother with standing up to the bullies, but I just cannot agree that the community supports ignoring the problem. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
    • To be fair, we should acknowledge that bullies are not just those who use a few naughty words. Bullies also include a not insignificant number of "editors" who act as though they were as pure as the driven snow while aggressively progressing their own agendas, as well as any editor who feels that they are "punching up", or that it is appropriate to do so. We could all (and I do include myself) do a lot worse than having a long, hard look in the mirror. Sometimes the best way to address bullying is to simply stop. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 09:36, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
      • Yes, "Punching up" was what I was subject to. User:Fred Bauder Talk 15:22, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• Please don't say "don't vote neutral." I'll vote neutral if, after much deliberation, I neither support nor oppose the candidate. I'll also vote neutral if I don't have an informed opinion on a given candidate by the time I cast my vote. If, as it sometimes happens, life intervenes and I don't have time to have an informed opinion on any candidate I may skip the election altogether rather than "vote neutral" across the board. Ditto if I do some or all of my homework and still can't support or oppose any candidate which I had time to research. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 21:18, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• I think if you asked most sitting arbs if they were committed to stopping bullying, they'd answer in the affirmative. It's a lot easier though, to sit on the sidelines and say "This is what should happen", and a lot harder to make the same call when you're going to have to cop the responsibility and consequences. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 02:10, 3 November 2015 (UTC).

ClueBot for talk pages?

Wikipedia has benefited for a long time now from the services of ClueBot and its descendants to protect content from vandalism. Maybe we should think about whether a similar artificial intelligence solution, using an edit filter and/or tags, could also be viable for catching problematic talk page interactions: Wikipedia should value its editors as much as its readers: without editors, there is no content. If you have suggestions or concerns related to this idea, there is an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Proposed:_Tag_.2F_edit_filter_for_talk_page_abuse. Thanks. Andreas JN466 21:21, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

This is a great and potentially revolutionary idea. Instead of putting the onus on editors, especially new ones, to find out how to request assistance and negotiate Wikipedia's dramaboards, help can come to them. As long as humans reviewed the bot's results, I don't see any downside. Gamaliel (talk) 21:24, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Self-government and self-responsibility

This essay is a nice fantasy best suited for the gullible, but history shows otherwise. There is no elected body of people that have ever changed a single damn thing to improve the lives of individuals. All change comes from within and radiates outward, from our close relationships with others to society at large. Until people take responsibility nothing will change. This begins with the author who says that he never really considered himself a feminist. I will not be placing my hope in any elected body of people but in myself and other people who I interact with on a daily basis, because that is the only thing that matters. Everything else is a distraction from the responsibility we have to each other. All that is necessary for gender-based discrimination to continue is for good men and women to do nothing when they encounter it. The solution is not arbcom but the will to act by the individual. Even consensus is not enough to stop it because groups can decide to discriminate as they see fit. So in closing, I voice my objection to the idea that the solution exists outside of ourselves and the choices that we make. Arbcom is not the solution and never will be the solution. Viriditas (talk) 02:40, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Of course the main way forward is for individuals to stand up to the bullies. I'm asking people to stand up to the bullies as a group. I don't agree that "There is no elected body of people that have ever changed a single damn thing to improve the lives of individuals" People can and do work together all the time. Wikipedia is a prime example. Let's just work together in an even better way. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

The way forward is to weaken bureaucracy and strengthen individual decision making. Wikipedia has focused far too much time and energy on building bureaucracy that has become more and more distant from the actual needs and requirements of the editors who use this site. It's almost 2016. We are now in the era of decentralized, direct democracy made possible by instantaneous communication and feedback. We are no longer in the realm of following leaders and organizations down blind alleys that lead nowhere. The model of this era is organically complex, fluid, non-hierarchical, self-organizing and emergent. Ironically, the old model of bureaucracy used a computational model that time and time again biology has disproved. The model of our time is a living system not an artificial intelligence, and this necessitates allowing the system to function on its own until homeostasis is reached. Instead what we see, time and time again, is a bloated, uncompromising bureaucracy trying to lobotomize, surgically remove, and extract the most important elements while ignoring their essential function. Stop building bureaucracy and start building relationships between editors that reinforces community. And stop saying Wikipedia isn't a social network. It is and it must function as one to retain female editors. Viriditas (talk) 04:47, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the idea that we need to "start building relationships between editors that reinforces community" but I'm not sure how that alone will help create and reinforce positive behaviors. Bureaucracy is not ideal, but almost every rule ever created was because some idiot did something to make that rule necessary. How is will a sense of community alone help fend off people determined to be terrible? Gamaliel (talk) 05:01, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Lord Acton? The evidence shows that the "people determined to be terrible" are those with power. By decentralizing power, you eliminate the problem. Why would you want to harm someone if that action would only end up harming you? When there is an imbalance of power, the distance between a harmful action and the victim is that much greater, externalizing the risks and the harm. At the end of the day this is about values and conflicts over values. Do you value knowledge and knowledge building, or hat and trinket collecting? Power and prestige, or sharing and self respect? Viriditas (talk) 05:17, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Whether it's the abolition of slavery, the introduction of old age pensions, the plimsoll line and other health and safety legislation, removing lead from petrol or banning children from being chimney sweeps, history has shown that elected bodies can change things in ways that improve the lives of individuals. To think otherwise is an extreme libertarian or anarchist political view that ignores many successful reforms by elected bodies. Of course elected bodies can prove inept, and Arbcom has often got things wrong, but the alternative of accepting that all individuals are free to act as they choose is to yield this site to the trolls, spammers and vandals, and in short order even the spammers would abandon it once the audience had gone. ϢereSpielChequers 09:17, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

All of your examples demonstrate my point. All individuals are free to act as they choose. In the past, many people freely engaged in slavery, allowed the elderly to live and die in poverty, gave corporations carte blanche to pollute, etc. Elected bodies allowed these things to happen. History shows that reform came about due to the efforts of individuals, not elected bodies, who are always the last to officiate and "legislate" what society has already decided. You have confused cause and effect. The pomp and circumstance of institutional formality comes after individuals have devoted and given their lives for these causes, in most cases against the consensus of the elected bodies who allowed them to happen in the first place. Your version of history is completely at odds with the arrow of time. Elected bodies of representatives are completely irrelevant in the Internet age of direct democracy. You're free of course, to keep trying to bring back the 18th century, but I think most of us have moved on. Government works only for the government. Few if any of us benefit from "representation". It may be difficult for you to accept these facts, but politics can and does evolve. We don't need arbcom or any other kind of bureaucratic process on Wikipedia, but it seems like a great number of people here are religiously devoted to creating and perpetuating unnecessary bureaucracy by any means necessary as a way to ignore the real problems and issues. It's essentially a shell game. Vote all you want, nothing is going to change until people change. Real change takes place at the level of the individual, not with laws nor with governments. Viriditas (talk) 09:57, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Being a fan of subsidiarity, I am all for solving social problems "at the most immediate (or local) level consistent with their solution." And I hope that you will consider organizing a local user group to do just that. You may make many wonderful friends that way. However, your local group will only be able to stick up for you against bullies at your local events.

It's pretty crazy to insist that the community should refuse to designate participants (such as the Arbcom, administrators, or WMF representatives) as having responsibility and authority to assist volunteers who are being bullied. Fighting things out as individuals has had some nasty results, some of which spill over onto other websites, and impact people in their offline lives. Basic order and civilized behavior is not optional if you want to be an appealing place for volunteers.

As for elected bodies: some volunteers here appear to think that elected governmental bodies are powerless to affect what happens on the Wikipedia websites because the websites are located in "cyberspace." Dream on, folks! If we don't solve our problems ourselves and elected governmental bodies have to step in, I can guarantee you it will not be fun. --Djembayz (talk) 23:45, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I can tell you as someone who was on the committee when some of the cases referenced were being handled that I was not pleased with some of the results. In fact, there was one case where I was 'in fairly strong opposition to the results and at odds with other members of the committee about how to proceed.

On the other hand, people need to understand that arbcom is not an investigative body, it si a deliberative body. In other words, an arbcom decision is only as good as the evidence submitted. Sometimes there is not enough evidence to support a strong finding or sanction. Sometimes there are moutains and moutains of evidence, but much of it is irrelevant. If arbcom had their own investigative wing that could put in the hundreds of hours needed to thoroughly research each case on their own and gather their own evidence, they would produce more even results. As it is, they are simply volunteers like everyone else and can barely keep up with their workload.

It is not my intention with these remarks to defend some of the more questionable decisions that have come out of the committee in the last few years, but to point out that the problem is not nearly as simple as this piece would have us believe. Different arbs would probably produce different results, but do we actually know that they would be better results? I think not. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:50, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

First, though ArbCom has limited abilities, it is far from clear that they have used the resources available or sought the resources that were needed. A small deliberative body which, for example, decides to act on the theory that Gamergate is about gender, really might be expected to seek expertise about gender before proceeding. A small deliberative body which decides to act on the theory that the Lightbreather case concerned harassment might have sought expertise about harassment. Consultation would have helped prevent blunders which continue to damage the project.

Second, does ArbCom use even the evidence placed before it? In the current AE2 case, it has indulged endless arguments to the effect that discussion of The Atlantic required that an editor be able to reply on-wiki, even though such a reply violated an Arbcom sanction. In contrast, another editor, Lightbreather, requested permission from Arbcom to address the same question a week ago, and has apparently not received even the courtesy of an acknowledgment. The disparate treatment complained of in The Atlantic continues, it seems.

Third, collusion and coordination have been the consistent, if silent, subtext of much of ArbCom’s recent work. Instead of stepping back, observing the big picture, and addressing the true problem, Arbcom has consistently chosen to pretend that all problems stem from personal misbehavior and can be addressed through personal solutions, as if the source of all problems were childish or deranged behavior. Many problems faced by the project stem from well-planned and well-executed conspiracies and campaigns conducted by dedicated operatives; you cannot hope to fix these with tools adapted for disciplining misbehaving children.

Finally, while ArbCom claims to base its decisions on evidence, it appears increasingly clear that evidence is beside the point: civility -- as Eric Corbett has pointed out so effectively -- is whatever your allies (or ArbCom’s) say it is. When is a cunt not a cunt? We now have thousands of words on this edifying subject! When is a block not a block? When the blocked party has influential friends! Wikipedia has become a place of men, not rules. When we equate harassment and the resistance to harassment, and when we demand that perpetrators and victims alike behave blamelessly, we ask too much; when we do nothing about offsite attacks and then demand that victims either offer no defense (lowering their profile as ArbCom intended to require) or offer a defense that is studiously civil to their attackers, scrupulously neutral in tone and substance, and never exhibits a trace of battleground behavior or ownership, we ask too much. We are asking volunteers to act as if they were saints in the face of attacks for which they were unprepared -- and then further demand that their behavior be judged as saintly by their dedicated opponents. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:45, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Admins

The article correctly points out that one doesn't need to be an admin to stand for Arbcom, but omits to mention that so far the community has only elected admins to arbcom. If any non admin reading this is considering running for Arbcom either this December or next December then may I suggest they consider first becoming an admin. ϢereSpielChequers 09:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Since RfA should be abolished and user rights devolved and decentralized and made available to anyone who needs them, which in turns allows them to be removed easily and without the current tyranny of indefinite terms, and in the process limits the powers of admins and gives the power back to the community whom they have disenfranchised to begin with, I would strongly disagree. Viriditas (talk) 10:24, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

WSC is just being real. The truth is that while it is technically possible to be a non-admin arb, it has never happened in the history of the committee. It's all well and good to imagine a whole other way of doing things and what you believe it should be like, but realistically it is highly unlikely, but not impossible. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:54, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Beeblebrox. I actually think that if we don't succeed in fixing RFA it is only a matter of time before we elect a non admin as an arb. Possibly even this year, personally I have voted for at least one non admin candidate in the past. But if any such are watching this becoming an admin first is going to make it easier to win an Arbcom election, and in my view anyone who would get 50% support in an arbcom election is likely to get over 75% support at RFA. ϢereSpielChequers 22:59, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Policy

Is there a reason we are going about this via an Arbcom election, instead of (say) writing these concerns on a project page and slapping it with {{proposed}}? This just seems a very indirect method to me. Have we really given up all hope of Arbcom following policy? --NYKevin 22:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

1. WP:Civility and WP:Harassment are already quite clear on the matter, but ArbCom has chosen to view these policies as optional.
2. When the people's elected representatives do not represent the people's views, it is customary in a civilized society, for the people to elect new representatives in the next election. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:12, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Anti-bullying

I would support an anti-bullying agenda. I think it is worth understanding what bullying (or attempted bullying) is. Bullying is the use of power to abuse or illegitimately coerce. It's important to realise that power is a subtle thing, especially on Wikipedia - it's not just wielded by arbitrators and administrators. Long standing editors have power, those that write for the Signpost have power - and, of course, we inherit, if we choose, power structures from the outside world. For example attempting to belittle another author's knowledge of Shakespeare as User:MarkBernstein has done, is an exercise, and I would say an abuse, of power. Making accusations of criminal activity against other (blocked!) editors is an abuse of power. Forming a cabal is an abuse of power.

Are those who are so keen on anti-bullying prepared to have their own actions scrutinised?

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC).

The only power I have is to tell people things that make them uncomfortable. Given the response the last two weeks, apparently people are very uncomfortable. As gratified I am to wield that power, I want to point out that we are willing to share that power with anyone who is willing to contribute to the publication. Gamaliel (talk) 03:01, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

You can resign as an admin, making the above statement true retroactively. Or not. I think it's already pretty clear what role "truth" plays in your narrative. 107.150.94.6 (talk) 04:26, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Nah, I'm having too much fun pissing off the peanut gallery. Gamaliel (talk) 04:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Brush up your Shakespeare! You better start quoting him now. Brush up your Shakespeare, and the women you will wow! (Are you quite certain is was Shakespeare and not Milton, Rich? Or Marlowe, perchance? Maybe it was Cole Porter? Or Sondheim?) The occasional literary allusion is not bullying; it's a good way to keep educated people amused and engaged. Jokes are good too, but they're hard work. MarkBernstein (talk) 04:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Should such literary giants seem too far a reach, one might solace in the bon mot of Justice Potter Stewart. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 07:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I thought we still had a policy that said something about No Personal Attacks. Did it really read, "no personal attacks by little people?" Speaking of the weather, and without reference to anything above, I also would like to mention that threatened boomerangs can be used by a mob of harassers to silence their opponents. "That’s a nice store window you have here. It would be a shame if...." MarkBernstein (talk) 16:45, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Voter guides

When I last ran page views to voter guides were about double those of the candidates' question pages. That means that about a dozen guide writers have a huge influence as opinion leaders, and if they don't like a certain type of candidate, for instance non-admins, then there is very little chance to gain a seat. --Pgallert (talk) 05:57, 3 November 2015 (UTC)