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'''DELETE:''' This is another attempt to link nationality to vocation, in this case terrorism. This seems to be specifically directed towards Pakistan. There is no basis for implying/ emphasizing terrorists of Pakistani nationals as that is a racist tendency in itself. Any such attempts to come up with categories with an illicit agenda is regrettable and this page needs to be deleted in that respect {{unsigned|156.111.18.77}}
'''DELETE:''' This is another attempt to link nationality to vocation, in this case terrorism. This seems to be specifically directed towards Pakistan. There is no basis for implying/ emphasizing terrorists of Pakistani nationals as that is a racist tendency in itself. Any such attempts to come up with categories with an illicit agenda is regrettable and this page needs to be deleted in that respect {{unsigned|156.111.18.77}}

'''DELETE:'''Indians are voting to keep the article mostly. Bias? Make your own hunch. Lets put an article on Indian state terrorism in Occupied Kashmir.

Revision as of 23:11, 15 August 2006

Terrorists of Pakistani origin

Article duplicates Category:Pakistani terrorists and is presently used by User:Robcotton for original research and crystal-ball gazing. —Viriditas | Talk 05:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Voting issues - In the spirit of fairness, any new votes made by IP (12.40.163.4) must be disregarded, he already voted once. Also, suspiciously this is the only contribution on Wiki that IP address (24.14.91.146) made. Keep a lookout for them and their (possible) socks. Also this is only the second contribution made by IP (156.111.18.77).Bakaman Bakatalk 23:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: This is not about Pakistani terrorists operating within Pakistan. This is about terrorist of Pakistani origin (most of them not Pakistani citizens), operating outside of Pakistan. Viriditas has been vandalizing the article, he has been removing the contents withought justification. This is an article containing a list and not a category. The information used for the article is widely published and readily available. Just click on the Wikipedia and external links provided.--Robcotton 05:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The list you created is original research which duplicates an already existing category. Your definition of who is or isn't Pakistani is subjective and open to interpretation, and in the case of Haq, you list him as a terrorist based on your beliefs and not on reliable sources. Furthermore he was US-born, so how does that make him a Pakistani terrorist? Ramzi Yousef's nationality is disputed, Hasib Hussain was born in the UK, as was Shehzad Tanweer, Mohammad Sidique Khan, and Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh. The article as it stands is not based on objective criteria and reads as original research. You've also added speculative content to the article; Wikipedia does not engage in forecasting the future, as the "Yet to be named" news section you've added implies. And, who are the "Murderers of Indian diplomat Ravindra Mhatre", and if they can't be named, how do you know they are Pakistani terrorists? Also, the external links you provide do not seem to substantiate the article you created. Just because a UK-born terrorist might have a Pakistani father, does not imply that such a person is a "Pakistani terrorist"; that is your original research. More importantly, Wikipedia convention appears to categorize terrorists after their place of birth, not by the ethnicity or nationality of their mother or father as you are doing. —Viriditas | Talk 06:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Question of nationality ;Viriditas's text justifies why the article is called "Terrorists of Pakistani origin" (and not "Pakistani terrorists"). There is a common thread among them, and yet most of the persons listed are not Pakistani citizens. This is an useful article with an appropriate theme.--ISKapoor 19:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We use nationality for categorization for the sole reason that it is verifiable. How do you even begin to verify "descent"? This is completely absurd and serves no useful, informative, or encyclopedic purpose other than to push POV and original research. What does it mean to be of "Pakistani origin" and how do you verify it? We don't list occupations in this way for that reason. What's next, List of engineers of Indian origin? Category:Indian engineers exists because it is verifiable and helps sort the engineer category. Why is "descent" notable, and what usefulness does it impart? —Viriditas | Talk 05:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Further information added:Viriditas had asked who are the "Murderers of Indian diplomat Ravindra Mhatre"? . Mhatre was murdered at Birmingham, UK in 1984. I have the answer which took me a while to find: Mohammed Riaz and Quayyam Raja. They were among the six convicted by a British court in 1985. [1]. Raja Abdul Qayyum was expelled by UK upon his release in 2005. They belonged to the same Mirpuri (They are considered to be "Kashmiri", but speak Mirpuri, a dialect of Punjabi)community as some of the other individuals from UK in the list of terrorists.--Robcotton 22:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I also request the readers to see People's Justice Party (UK). Note that there is a whole group in Birmingham, UK, who supported Mohammed Riaz and Quayyam Raja.--Robcotton 22:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Terrorism and social groups: Many criminal groups, gangs, terrorists, crime groups rely on social networking to recruit members. Thus there is Sicilian Mafia,Tamil gangs, Mexican Mafia, Irish Gangs, Korean Gang Gangpeh, Russian Mafia, Chinese triads List of Triad Societies, Criminally Influenced Tongs and Chinese Gangs etc. To know how such groups work, ethnicity needs to be considered as a common factor. Discussion of crime and terror will be very hard if references to ethnicity is considered non-PC. That will amount to prohibiting a candid discussion of terror and crime. --ISKapoor 21:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
With no exceptions all articles on these terrorists mention their ethnic roots. The question here is one of categorisation, not political correctness. (PC is itself a violation of WP:NPOV in any case.) The situation here is akin to creating a list of criminals who play video games or list of opponents of same-sex marriage with gay children. The notability of such features is hotly disputed, and Wikipedia should not be yet another front of these disputes. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 00:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Terrorism: random or correlated? Kaustuv Chaudhuri has claimed that it is a random event that some individuals of Pakistani descent are terrorist. Please see the following.
Articles
Terrorism pipeline flows to Pakistan, Chicago Tribune, August 13, 2006 [4][5]
Pakistan missing link in extremist battle, Sydney Morning Herald, August 14, 2006, [6]
Just whose side is Pakistan really on? The Sunday Times - Britain, August 13, 2006 [7]
Pakistan’s Help in Averting a Terror Attack Is a Double-Edged Sword, New York Times, August 12, 2006[8][9]
Books
Book: Pakistan's Drift Into Extremism: Allah, The Army, And America's War On Terror, Hassan Abbas, Jessica Stern [10]
Book: Pakistan: Eye of the Storm, Owen Bennett Jones [11]
Book: Pakistan: Between Mosque And Military, by Husain Haqqani [12]
Other
Congressional Briefing: Rep. McKinney 9/11 Congressional Briefing[13]
--Robcotton 21:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
May I also suggest another article. "The history of Britain's Mirpur population may help to explain why some became suicide bombers", Madeleine Bunting, Guardian, July 18, 2005 [14]
--Robcotton 22:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have not claimed anything of the sort. I have, in fact, expressed no opinion on the nature of terrorism. If you want to argue that terrorism has ethnic causes, you might find your view already expressed adequately in terrorism#Perpetrators. That article could use several more pairs of eyes in any case. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 01:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE! this article i am afraid more slander than truth. If you want to talk about research in these matters, why don't you follow the research being done that shows that none of the people mentioned by the CIA and US Govt had anything to do with it, you can look at Loose Change video for a very very thorough treatment of 9/11. The term Pakistani origin is v v much debatable, you can also say the person was from an Indian origin as Pakistan used to be part of India, you can also say British empire origin as India was a colony, you can also say more. I'd rather stick to the present nationality and beleifs of the person. Thank you!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.14.91.146 (talk • contribs) 2006-08-15 05:20:44 (UTC)
  • Keep. Both a category and an article would be useful in this case. Batmanand | Talk 09:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Jayjg and RJH. Article is very POV and inflammatory. Hate to say it, but even the term "terrorist" is POV and not worthy of a real encyclopedia. No legitimate purpose is served by listing perpetrators of violent acts by ancestral origin. How is this "useful" for research or understanding? The lists, sadly, could be endless, and we could spend endless hours debating who should be on the list and who should not, instead of doing real writing with context and history, which is what an encyclopedia should be in the business of doing. Bruxism 09:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Terrorism is an extremely important topic for an encyclopedia. Look at many articles now present on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism--Coffeesuds 14:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bold textDELETE Italic text90% of the people mentioned in this link are non-Pakistanis (British and American citizens by birth). Its like calling Timothy McViegh as a German terrorist (if his forefathers had emigrated from Germany). Baseless Indian propaganda to malign Pakistan once again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.40.163.4 (talk • contribs)

Comment - Baseless Indian propaganda? Take your racist attacks to [www.chowk.com Chowk.com]. We are building an encyclopedia not a mouthpiece for Pakistani grievances.Bakaman Bakatalk 17:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I do believe that there is a corration between ethnicty and terror. This article is not simmalar to "terrorist who like hotdogs" which would not make any sence. While the exact criteria of who is "pakistani origin" can be debated since newpapers do not hesitate to discribe people as such there is no reason that we should. Jon513 17:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

DELETE: It is sad to see that even on wikipedia, people argue without facts. Some of the 'keep bullets' do not justify the invalid and weak sources of the article, but rather say that 'keep' because terrorists are from this country. This is hardly an academic argument, and I am strongly opposing existance of such articles, that would tarnish the reputation of wikipedia, as a well informed site.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.57.245.11 (talk • contribs)

Comment - A whole skew of delete votes (not the good faith ones like Chaudhuri etc.) are coming from IP addresses with little contribution history.Bakaman Bakatalk 22:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • KEEP: It is sad to see that even on wikipedia, fundamentalist elements and their sympathizers (sockpuppets?) are trying to revise the facts and whitewash the situation in discussion here. While the phrase 'of Pakistani descent' is questionable and may point to a certain bias, it cannot be denied that a causal connection exists between the fine folks listed in the article vis-a-vis their nation of origin.Netaji 22:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

DELETE: This is another attempt to link nationality to vocation, in this case terrorism. This seems to be specifically directed towards Pakistan. There is no basis for implying/ emphasizing terrorists of Pakistani nationals as that is a racist tendency in itself. Any such attempts to come up with categories with an illicit agenda is regrettable and this page needs to be deleted in that respect — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.111.18.77 (talk • contribs)

DELETE:Indians are voting to keep the article mostly. Bias? Make your own hunch. Lets put an article on Indian state terrorism in Occupied Kashmir.

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