Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016 Sweden asylum center stabbing: Difference between revisions

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2016 Sweden asylum center stabbing

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~~WP:NOTNEWS, WP:MEMORIAL~~ notable per WP:CRIME, WP:NCRIME. Execution of an unusual crime that triggered a wide social reaction and possibly some policy changes. Worth documenting as a historic event. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 11:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note nominator has now entered a Keep vote below. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:Spirit Ethanol you might want to read the policies that you are citing, since they do not apply to this article, and also at WP:BEFORE, because if you had run a simple search or two on this incident you would have been able to judge it's notability more accurately.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:32, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually since this article is about a criminal act as opposed to a criminal, I would suggest that the applicable notability guideline is WP:NCRIME not WP:CRIME. But I guess it's the thought that counts. ;) Coretheapple (talk) 20:00, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As per nominee. --Eduemoni ^↑talk↓ 12:02, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by !voting.. irrelevant.BabbaQ (talk) 21:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The is patently NOT a WP:MEMORIAL. WP:NOTNEWS is a guideline that does not apply to this article, It states "Wikipedia does have many encyclopedia articles on topics of historical significance that are currently in the news, and can be updated with recently verified information." This article passes WP:GNG because of the worldwide scope and depth of coverage and because of the impact of the event on the current dominating topic in Swedish politics. That said, it needs expansion. It is more productive to help expand articles on obviousl notable events than to delete them. Here is a little [1] of the material that can and should be added to this article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:29, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

— Note to closing admin: E.M.Gregory (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD.

@E.M.Gregory: E.M., I just wanted to point out that whether or not those guidelines apply, WP:NCRIME definitely does, which is why I changed my !vote to "keep." Coretheapple (talk) 14:54, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:47, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Ultimately, this is a local crime story with no serious encyclopedic value. The nominator was correct in bringing it to this forum. And Adoil Descended (talk) 14:09, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Local? it has been reported extensively by international media. No serious encyclopedic value? Personal opinions weights lightly over guidelines. --BabbaQ (talk) 21:36, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete. NOTNEWS applies to this tragic event. Coretheapple (talk) 16:35, 3 February 2016 (UTC) changing to keep see below. Coretheapple (talk) 14:50, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am expanding/improving this article. However, even when it was written it could not be accurately described as a "local crime story". "Local crime stories" in Sweden do not get intensive coverage in the British, American, French and other foreign media. Nor do Prime Ministers rush to the scene of a "local crime" with "No serious encyclopedia value" in the hope of difusing popular response, which, in this case, had included a nationwide series of premeditated attacks in which groups of men beat up black and brown-skkined people in thestreet and attack asylum centers.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:07, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coretheapple, NOTNEWS does not apply. I have explained that below several times.BabbaQ (talk) 21:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:HEY. Editors who weighed in above need to at least look at expanded article (nothing fancy, just a quick expansion) an enormous amount of sourcing is available (most intensely from Britain papers for those searching in English,) more is available in other European languages and, of course, in Swedish. this: [2] gives a sense of the early coverage. The stabber (there is no doubt of his identity) is now a poster child for what the Swedish and international press report as presumably thousands of adult, male asylum seekers who lied to authorities by claiming to be underage so that they could take advantage of generous benefits and fast-track paths to legal status available to minors arriving without adult guardians, and also a poster child in the debate over whether asylum seekers who create crimes should be deported or allowed to serve their penalties and stay in Sweden. Except, he's not a child. He's a fully mature six-footer with a beard who all the reporters who have seen him guess to be 20 or so. The incident is reported to have sparked a round of deliberate attacks on asylum seekers and asylum centers by nativists. Coverage will obviously continue as this case moves towards trial and sentencing.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:57, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. Stick a knife in this one, it's done. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:46, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NOTNEWS does not apply. This is a article with great sourcing of national and international media. BabbaQ (talk) 21:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article goes far beyond whet is meant by not news because both Swedish and foreign papers have continued to run stories about it, and to cover details as they come out, and because it is discussed as a driver of political reactions to immigration I Sweden.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. Agree with User:Lugnuts. User:BabbaQ has a point, but on balance I would agree with Lugnuts.AppliedStatistics (talk) 08:32, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NOTNEWS as stated by others, and also per WP:COATRACK. I reject E.M.Gregory's argument that the relationship between this incident and the 2015 refugee crisis is sufficient basis for this article to meet WP:GNG – if we were to do this, we would have hundreds of pages relating to individual crimes, each presenting its own take on the refugee crisis, and that is exactly what the COATRACK policy is designed to avoid. Once this article is stripped back to the bare facts about the incident itself, it falls into the NOTNEWS category. Aspirex (talk) 09:31, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not a coatrack.WP:WINAC Note that every source that I added to the article is, in whole or part, an article about this specific stabbing murder. Each of the response assertions is there because sources discussing the incident assert that it was the or a contributory factor to specific consequence, such as the articles asserting that this attack was immediately followed by a sharp uptick in attacks on immigrants (or people who look like migrants) And while the article is about this crime, many, many articles about this crime point out that the perpetrator appears far older than his stated age, it is reasonable ot include that, look at WP:WINAC: "It would be reasonable to include brief information of the background behind a key detail, even if the background has no relevance to the article's topic, as long as such information is used sparingly and does not provide any more explanation than a reasonably knowledgeable reader would require." which is why I include a little information about the incentives migrnats have to lie about their age. Also note WP:WINAC: "Material that is supported by a reliable, published source whose topic is directly related to the topic of the article, is not using the article as a coatrack.".E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:09, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. Ratatosk Jones (talk) 16:10, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NOTNEWS does not apply to a article that has great sourcing from media all over the world. Its not a local story or little importance or no press coverage.BabbaQ (talk) 21:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the article is extremely well sourced and notable. I think the delete votes should re-look at the article and see the new additions. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:14, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User:Spirit Ethanol Thank you for helping clean up the article. I wonder if you would consider withdrawing this AFD, given the amount of attention that the crime continues to generate in around the world and in Sweden where this incident has become a highly charged signifier at a time of burgeoning political tensions about the enormous wave of illegal immigrants. see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2012 Paros (Greece) rape.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@E.M.Gregory: per WP:WDAFD nomination can only be withdrawn with no other delete votes. Best path to retaining article is via more keep votes. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 16:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - NOTNEWS, wikinews is thataway nableezy - 17:05, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NOTNEWS is irrelevant here as the article has great sourcing and is about an event that has been reported on by plenty of international press.BabbaQ (talk) 21:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That doesnt address NOTNEWS at all. Which, like it or not, is certainly relevant. nableezy - 07:40, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The article doesn't meet WP:NEWSEVENT. As tragic as it is, there's no evidence that there's any lasting effects or significant coverage beyond the usual sensationalist coverage of a spectacular murder. NEWSEVENT is pretty clear that media's criteria for publishing is different from Wikipedia's notability criteria which means that an event can receive a lot of media coverage without being notable. Sjö (talk) 17:18, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know anything about lasting effects? It has been a week or so since it happened. that is purely speculations.

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, there's no evidence of lasting effects. E.g. no quick policy changes or resignations, as can happen as a result of other events. I might ask, how do you know there will be lasting effects? Sjö (talk) 05:46, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - this article covers one of the most reported on and talked about murders in Swedish history for a loooong time. It covers WP:NEWSEVENT and WP:GNG. And no, the users claiming this is a "local story" means "this is a non British or American" story, simply because is a story from Swedens doesnt make it a local story. This event has been reported by international press as well as evident by the articles great sourcing. This article should be kept as it is notable and follows the WP:GNG guidelines an is filled with great sourcing.BabbaQ (talk) 21:24, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NOTNEWS is a stupid guideline used to justify deletion for simply any article that deletionists wants to be deleted. Wikipedia IS NEWS and is based on news. BabbaQ (talk) 21:25, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOT isnt a guideline, its Wikipedia policy. Disliking that doesnt change it, and your dislike of that policy does not in any way invalidate the view of those who do accept that policy. nableezy - 07:47, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The murder along with wide reaction and revenge act(s) by mobs warrant a page, see 2012 Paros (Greece) rape for a precedent page. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 22:04, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What on Earth? The nominator has added a keep !vote? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:31, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could be because the article was modified, sources added it is now still in the news, so notnews certainly doesn't apply. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Spirit Ethanol: Agree, per WP:NCRIME. If you feel differently about the nom but cannot withdraw it, I would suggest striking out your original nomination, as you are permitted to do. Coretheapple (talk) 20:29, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete WP:NOTNEWS - every single tragedy and stabbing cannot have its own Wikipedia article. AusLondonder (talk) 22:36, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you're going to create an article like this, at least spell it "centre" AusLondonder (talk) 22:38, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

British spelling because coverage of this Swedish crime has been so massive in Britain? Interesting point.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:13, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"center"/"centre" is spelt "centrum" in Swedish AusLondonder (talk) 15:53, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

IDONTLIKEIT does not apply. Does every single tragedy have an article? I did not know that. No, seriously, only notable "tragedies" and stabbings are notable and should have articles such as this one. NOTNEWS does not apply as this event has received attention for plenty of international media and has created a debate over these centers. BabbaQ (talk) 22:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 12:40, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: WP:NOTNEWS and WP:LASTING apply. Most of the article is about a crime and the immediate responses. If indeed it leads to policy changes etc. it can be recreated. Insofar as it is related to the immigration debate, it should be present in that article, summarized and in context. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:31, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jason Margolis [3] on The World (radio program) on talking about how this case has sparked patrolling by vigilantes in Stockholm. Impact is verified.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:29, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean this article the source he uses doesn't make such a clear connection. Also, I removed a sentence in the article that erroneously said that the police had made a connection between the murder and the attacks. The stated purpose of the gangs according to reliable sources was to clean up among criminal street children. Sjö (talk) 07:16, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

changing to Keep. Reconsidering, based on WP:NCRIME, which is what we should be looking at. The scope of the media coverage is such as to warrant an article. Nominator's reconsideration was persuasive. Coretheapple (talk) 14:48, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per E.M.Gregory. --Article editor (talk) 15:21, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep (and rename) Notability of this event seems to be clearly established with widespread domestic and international news coverage, as well as significant societal and policy implications in Sweden. I don't like the title of the article however, suggest renaming to something like "Murder of Alexandra Mezher". User2534 (talk) 20:01, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could you give some examples of the significant societal and policy implications? I live in Sweden and I can't think of any policy implications, and the significant societal implications are limited to increased fear, as far as I know. Sjö (talk) 07:16, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 13:26, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I note that most of those who want to delete claims WP:NOTNEWS is relevant. while its not, as this article subject has been in world media as evident by the great sourcing, and has ignited the debate over immigration not only in Sweden. BabbaQ (talk) 09:44, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"NOTNEWS" was my first reaction. However, a few article improvements demonstrated the subject is clearly not covered by that policy, so I changed from delete to keep. Article still needs work. Coretheapple (talk) 21:04, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per E.M.Gregory + notable fact which molds public opinion in Sweden and Europe. Stefanomione (talk) 13:33, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closing user: Even the nominator has added a Keep !vote.BabbaQ (talk) 17:39, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That has been noted several times. Thank you. AusLondonder (talk) 02:53, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, seriously. WP:NOTNEWS is still policy, and relevant for this article. Huldra (talk) 22:59, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You can not claim WP:NOTNEWS when it has been established that the article is notable beyond that. It makes your !vote irrelevant. This subject has reached national and international attention and been the foundation for discussion about immigration as well. A crime article doesnt automatically fall under NOTNEWS. You do not even like most Deletionists at this discussion take the time to make your argument beyond some "drive-by" policy claim. --BabbaQ (talk) 08:43, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh stop it. As user Sjö has pointed out: this incidence has had no lasting consequences in Sweden (or elsewhere, AFAIK). Yes, I know there are some editors on Wikipedia who thinks that each and every murder committed by a Muslim (the vast majority of Somalis are Muslims, after all) is notable. I´m not one of them. And you are not getting to decide which votes are relevant.....or not. Huldra (talk) 09:00, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I think this is a perfect example of how reasonable folks can disagree and interpret WP guidelines differently. I understand the positions of both sides, but in my opinion this goes beyond being a news story. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:54, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per nom. Donottroll (talk) 15:41, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There is long precedent for tragedies that receive widespread coverage and analysis--as this one has--to also have an article on Wikipedia. I don't believe NOTNEWS applies in this case, and I think it's fairly telling that even the nominator has switched their position on this article, as has been noted several times above me in the discussion. Hallward's Ghost ^(Kevin) ^{(My talkpage)} 21:06, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 22:03, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 *'''Delete''' per WP:NOTNEWS. Stick a knife in this one, it's done. '''[[User:Lugnuts|<font color="002bb8">Lugnuts</font>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Lugnuts|Dick Laurent is dead]]</sup> 07:46, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 :*NOTNEWS does not apply. This is a article with great sourcing of national and international media. [[User:BabbaQ|BabbaQ]] ([[User talk:BabbaQ|talk]]) 21:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
-*::::This article goes  far beyond whet is meant by not news because both Swedish and foreign papers have continued to run stories about it, and to cover details as they come out, and because it is discussed as a driver of political reactions to immigration I Sweden.[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 11:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
+::*This article goes  far beyond whet is meant by not news because both Swedish and foreign papers have continued to run stories about it, and to cover details as they come out, and because it is discussed as a driver of political reactions to immigration I Sweden.[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 11:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 :*'''Delete''' per WP:NOTNEWS. Agree with [[User:Lugnuts]]. [[User:BabbaQ]] has a point, but on balance I would agree with Lugnuts.[[User:AppliedStatistics|AppliedStatistics]] ([[User talk:AppliedStatistics|talk]]) 08:32, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 *'''Delete''' per [[WP:NOTNEWS]] as stated by others, and also per [[WP:COATRACK]]. I reject E.M.Gregory's argument that the relationship between this incident and the [[2015 refugee crisis]] is sufficient basis for this article to meet [[WP:GNG]] – if we were to do this, we would have hundreds of pages relating to individual crimes, each presenting its own take on the refugee crisis, and that is exactly what the COATRACK policy is designed to avoid. Once this article is stripped back to the bare facts about the incident itself, it falls into the NOTNEWS category. [[User:Aspirex|Aspirex]] ([[User talk:Aspirex|talk]]) 09:31, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 :*This article is not a coatrack.[[WP:WINAC]]  Note that every source that I added to the article is, in whole or part, an article about this specific stabbing murder.  Each of the response assertions is there because sources discussing the incident assert that it was the or a contributory factor to specific consequence, such as the articles asserting that this attack was immediately followed by a sharp uptick in attacks on immigrants (or people who look like migrants)  And while the article is about this crime, many, many articles about this crime point out that the perpetrator appears far older than his stated age, it is reasonable ot include that, look at [[WP:WINAC]]: "It would be reasonable to include brief information of the background behind a key detail, even if the background has no relevance to the article's topic, as long as such information is used sparingly and does not provide any more explanation than a reasonably knowledgeable reader would require."  which is why I include a little information about the incentives migrnats have to lie about their age.  Also note [[WP:WINAC]]: "Material that is supported by a reliable, published source whose topic is directly related to the topic of the article, is not using the article as a coatrack.".[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 11:09, 4 February 2016 (UTC)