Talk:Eddie Brock

Improvements to this article

The article, as is, needs some heavy copy editing. It is far too long, with many unneccessary details. Unfortunately, there are far too few details in the character history section. Important events such as the birth of Carnage and the other symbiote spawn are missing.

The section on the creator controversy is only tangentially relevent to the character information and would be much more suited for a separate article. There are already articles in existence about the Spider-Man movies, so we don't need to discuss them in depth here. Etc.--66.188.137.248 03:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The creator controversy does go on a tangent from the article, but I don't think there's enough to justify it being a separate article, unless there is more to add to the story. If more sources and more information can be provided, and some organization of the section, then I think having a separate article would be a good idea.--Undertow87 23:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I know one improvement

You know the Ultimate Venom article? Before it was combined with the Venom article? Do you think you could bring the Ultimate Venom article back, but combined with the Venom Article? Or you can make it like how you make Wolverine, you know? There is a section with Ultimate Wolverine but a link leads to a seperate article. Can you do the same with Ultimate Venom please? If you do I'll stop changing the Ultimate Venom, Rhino pages. Answer Below As Soon As Possible.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.77.167.58 (talk • contribs) 13:13, August 21, 2006 (UTC)

It will be brought back when there is more to bring back than just a summary of plot and the entirety of what would be the Ultimate Venom article makes the Venom article unwieldy. The consensus among serious comic article editors was that we should keep the Ultimate characters in their main continuity counterparts' articles. --Newt ΨΦ 14:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Until then, why can't you bring back what was deleted, like the ultimate wolverine? Then you can add more info later? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.77.167.58 (talk • contribs) 15:05, August 21, 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty simple, really. The kid just wants Ultimate characters to have SHBs. Ultimate Namor, Ultimate Deadpool and Ultimate Giant-Man among others. Now, it's likely a universal decision that affects Ultimate character sections across the board needs to be reached, so, Kid GIPU, I recommend you take this up with the comics project. Oh and sign your comments.

Suggestion

Stop changing my corrections. Now maybe I haven't put enought info on Ultimate Venom, Carnage, and Rhino, but instead of deleting my corrections, add stuff I haven't added. I think wikipedia works better if most of these articles are as precise as possible.

Who are you and what are your "corrections"? --Newt ΨΦ 14:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Newt ΨΦ, are you the one who deleted the Ultimate Venom article and combined it with the Venom article?

Spider Man 3

Four Villains, including Sandman, Venom, Goblin, and someone else. Avi Arad said that. --Kozmik Pariah 22:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Creator of Venom

It is perhaps not coincidental that this dispute arose at a time when artists such as McFarlane and Larsen were enjoying a great deal of popularity and clout with readers, and exploiting their popularity by publishing creator-owned books with their new company, Image Comics, and it is possible that this issue was a subtext of the greater debate over the importance of writers versus artists that was being waged in the industry at the time.

This seems grossly inadequate. The only reason John Bryne is involved in this discussion at all is that there was a vicious Bryne/McFarlane feud at the time. I'm starting to wish I kept issues of Wizard from the early 90s, but John Byrne would write angry responses to McFarlane's column in Wizard. McFarlane would put thinly veiled jabs at Bryne in the note from the author section of Spawn. It's irresponsible to bring Bryne into the discussion at all without explaining the situation.

In the introduction to (at least) the current edition of the Secret Wars trade paperback, Jim Shooter claims that at least some of the idea for Spider-Man's costume came from a fan who had written in years earlier with what struck him as a good idea so he brought it. However it should be noted that Shooter is particularly hostile to Byrne - the same introduction also brings up the story of Byrne using a scene in an issue of Fantastic Four to retcon a prominent Chris Claremont X-Men story featuring Doctor Doom to explain it was really a robot (using some extremely petty "the real Doom wouldn't have done that in that panel" reasoning), though he doesn't actually name the two writers.

And another confusing bit:

Writer Peter David corroborated this notion in his But I Digress column in the June 4, 1993 Comics Buyer’s Guide, in which he related that Michelinie discussed the ideas behind the character with David, since at the time, David was the writer on The Spectacular Spider-Man who wrote the Sin Eater story from which Eddie Brock's back story would be derived, long before McFarlane was assigned to the art duties on Amazing.

Brock doesn't actually appear in the Sin-Eater storyline itself so I reckon this is either a "do you mind if I add to your story" consultation or a Spidey writers' conference. I'm also not sure which title David was on at the time Venom arrived - by the time of publication I tink he'd left Spectacular and was being courted as a regular writer for Web. Of more note is that in Web #18 and #24 there are moments when Peter Parker is attacked by an unseen opponent who hasn't set off his Spider-sense and who is later revealed as Venom - clearly a sign that Michelinie (then writing that book - almost every regular Spidey writer seems to have shuffled round the titles!) had something in the pipeline at the time, clearly before McFarlane was given the Amazing asignment. Timrollpickering 00:39, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Symbiote Spawns

I'm pretty sure of four out of the five names of Venom's children. Scream, Riot, Lasher, and Shriek, even though Shriek is already the name of another villian. I'm not sure about the black symbiote that looks like Venom. His human name is supposedly Carl, yet the symbiote name might be Phage or Hybrid or something else. Illusionz

The children of Venom I am familiar with are Carnage, Phage, Hybrid, Lasher Shriker, and Riot. Josh C.

Earth/Universe X Venom

I remember reading in the Earth X and Universe X series that in that future, Venom has joined with Peter Parker's daughter, May Parker, and they have become a crimefighter Venom. I believe this is an alternative-timeline future, but it seems important enough that it could deserve it's own section under "Other Versions of Venom". Anyone who knows this topic better than I want to tackle it?

The Chocolate/Brains issue, revisited

Before, this idea was knocked out as "vandalism" or being "stupid." However, whether it was stupid or not, it was still a major feature of the character's development.

The drug that the symbiote needed was phenethylamine, which is a real chemical really found in both animals (though I haven't done research to see if it was speicifically in brain tissue) and in chocolate. It's quite common, actually, which is a bend in the reality for Marvel.

However, since this particular quirk was an issue for all the miniseries appearances of Venom after The Hunger, (in Lethal Protector he is given chocolate by the government as part of the arrangement), it seems a bit ignorant and/or petty to remove it from the front wiki.

Just my two bits.

Agreed.

I was talking it out with SoM (the remover) and he says it lacked sources. I've since found numerous people confirming the Hunger miniseries fact, and thing it can be added back now, maybe with the provision that it says that the point rarely appeared afterwards.

Ironic

Does anyone else see the irony in this statement (regarding IMDb listing Topher Grace as Venom in Spiderman 3):

...this cannot be taken as fact since IMDB is a free-access site that can be edited by various sources.

--Don Don 06:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, fairly hypocritical for someone editing a wiki. --Viridis 21:30, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the point is that we cannot rely on other wikis/free-access sites for verifiable facts. That's why we ask for reputable sources, cross-referencing, etc. We do it internally/informally all the time, but we're not allowed to reference Wikicities, pbWiki, etc... -- nae'blis _(talk) 22:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

To those who reverted the Angelo Fortunato/Wolverine edits...

In Mark Millar's 'Venomous' arc Angelo Fortunato did indeed possess the Venom suit before being splattered all over the street.

And while I hadn't read the Venom series, I do know that Venom did possess Wolverine. 'Half of Canada' I'm not so sure on.

Regarding healing factor

IF Venom has ALL the powers of Spider-Man, then he does have a healing factor. Peter Parker has always been able to heal fast. He's no Wolverine, but he's had broken bones heal in just a few days. So IF (notice the if) Eddie has all the same powers, then he does. Just wanting to mention that. Thanos6 21:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not powerful enough to be considered to be a healing factor, as Spidey obvious ages like a normal human. T-1000 05:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Not every healing factor has to work at Wolverine power for it to count. Thanos6 22:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Even those with a weak healing factor ages much slower than Normal, see Cyber. Then there's also the issue of Spider-Man catching colds.T-1000 05:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Then what do you call his "enhanced healing ability"? Thanos6 05:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

That has to do with his durability being great than Humans, so he heals a little bit faster, but it's not an unique power. T-1000 05:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

How come he was healed from gun shot wounds in mintues. That was not durability. Eddie Brock did not have the symbiote on him when he was shot in the chest. The costume came around after that and healed him. Venom does have all of Spidey's powers and also has some powers of his own.

That's the Symbiote healing Eddie, which is not a healing factor. Just like a doctor healing you does not give you a healing factor. T-1000 03:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Tell me then is Venom fast? Is he strong? If Venom is only Eddie Brock and not the symbiote can I guess you can only consider him of normal human speed and strength. Venom is the combined sum of Brock and the symbiote. Since the coustume does have a healing factor then Venom does too. If Venom's bio went by what only Eddie had then he would just be a normal human. Do you even read Venom comics?

Powers

User:24.228.52.76 is taking things out of context in the powers and abilities section. Hulk and Juggeruant were not hurt by Venom's punches, and Superman was very weak when he faught Venom. I also need proof the Venom/Superman is canon. T-1000 05:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

"Juggernaut was knocked around like a toy in The Madness 2 and 3 meaning Venom is a alot stronger than 11 ton range. He also almost killed Sandman who is at the 85 class and almost killed Thing. Superman was not weakend in the comic. It never said or even hinted at that. Fans came up with that for an explanation. Hulk was not hurt by Venom but Venom was not hurt by his punches either until his sonic clap.

I guess you don't know that Juggeruant is immune to physical damage? Also, what prove did you have that Superman/Venom is canon? The Hulk/Venom thing nothing to do with Venom's strength, but rather his durability. T-1000 03:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The symbiote bonds to Eddie and they become one. They share all their combined powers. It can be said if Venom does not have a healing factor then he only has normal human speed and strength since that too is from the symbiote. The point is still the same, the symbiote does have a healing factore of its own. Once bonded to Eddie then he has it too. He seems to not know that Venom is the combined entities of Eddie Brock and the symbiote. Juggeruant is not immune to all physical damage since there are comics that show he has taken damage from various beings ranging from Hulk to Apocalyspse. Also it does not matter if he is since I mentioned Venom was strong enough to have an affact on Juggy. He still knocked him around like a toy. Moving him alone is a big accomplishment. All marvel/dc crossovers are canon if the comic takes place in two seprate universes. Last durability or not it takes great strenght to face the Hulk and lets not forget Venom almost killed the Thing and Sandman who are both in the 85-90 ton range. The point of all this is that Venom has shown greater strength than his bio.

Do you even know how the Venom/Juggernaut fight went? I show you a link:

[1]

Here is what other people thought of your edits:

[2]

Venom bite the Sandman. This had nothing to do with strength. Same with the Thing. Fighting a Super strong guy does not make you super strong. It's simple logic. Wolverine has faught the Hulk to a standstill, yet he is not super strong.

Non of the comic crossovers are canon except JLA/Avengers. Certainly not Marvel vs. DC and all access.

People with healing factors healing themselves. The symbiote is healing the host. See the difference?

Also, the stuff you inserted clearly violates NPOV, hence it is to be removed.T-1000 03:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Try reading Venom the Madness 2 and 3 not just 1 to support your argument. Juggy got bitched slapped all around. Venom fought Sandman more that once. That was their third fight. I guess you know that since you appear to be a big Venom fan. The first time Venom went punch for punch with him and beat him down back in the early nineties. All Access is considered canon because it acknowledges that DC and Marvel are two seperate universes. Check that out for yourself. NPOV? What is that. How strong is She-Hulk? He also tossed her around too like she was nothing. Venom also has lifted a large tank. Do you know how many tons a small tank is let alone a large one? Now for the healing factor. The symbiote has one. Venom has one too because Venom is the combination of Eddie and the symbiote. Venom is the total of them two and not just Brock. You seemed to have forgotten that when I told you last. Why is that?

Don't throw around terms like "a large tank". You have no way of backing up how much that tank weights. There are tanks that are about 10 tons. T-1000

Guys, any chance I could provide an outside point of view here? First, User:24.228.52.76, NPOV is neutral point of view, a cardinal tenet of editing on Wikipedia. T-1000 seems to be of the opinion that your information is in violation of that rule. Now, while I think you are pushing some things without references (much of your edit is referenced, but the "canon" thing in particular is a glaring exception), I don't necessarily agree with him. I think the "healing factor" thing is a little ridiculous on both your parts. You're splitting hairs over a term most people won't understand. Is there really some sort of world-is-going-to-end difference between "healing factor" and "enhanced durability and healing" or something of that ilk? Finally, with regards to the strength difference, you both bring up good points. T-1000 is correct that beating a strong opponent does not make you strong, but User:24.228.52.76 gives concrete examples (lifting a tank) demonstrating enormous strength. I suggest writing a strength statement using only those examples. --

MikeJ9919 04:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

User:24.228.52.76 is violating NPOV because he is taking things out of context. He ignored the fact Venom was mutated (fell into chemical) during the latter encounters with Juggeruant. Crossover are not canon unless stated by the publishers, and the only one that fells into that category is JLA/Avengers. Lifting a tank is still nowhere enough to hurt Hulk and Juggeruant. Spider-Man lifted a train cart once, but he is still not strong enough. He is clearly pushing for favorism for Venom which violates NPOV. T-1000 04:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I have already took care of Venom's strength with the following statement: " His strength has been depicted with some degree of contradiction, depending on the writer.", which basically saids Venom's strength isn't consistent.T-1000 04:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a good core statement, but in order to address User:24.228.52.76's concerns, specific examples (with references) should be included. From NPOV:"Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular." Referenced examples are an important part of this. I don't think every fight should be included, but certainly a range of strength is important. For example: "Venom has demonstrated strength ranging from slightly greater than that of Spider-Man to strength rivaling that of Juggernaut, though the former may have been the result of a temporary chemical mutation. This depiction seems contradictory and dependent on the writer, though Venom is not generally characterized with massive superstrength." As I said earlier, unless he can find a reference, I agree with you on the crossover canon issue. Can we settle on wording for the healing factor thing? User:24.228.52.76, can I get you to weigh in on this? --MikeJ9919 06:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Like I said before, fighting Juggeruant does not give you Juggeruant like strength. Juggeruant's strength is incalculably high. Venom, mutated or not, does not have any where near this strength. User:24.228.52.76 is trying to implied that Venom has Juggeruant like strength, something that is not true and biased, and that is the part that is violating NPOV. For third party opinions, see my second link. T-1000 17:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that fighting Juggernaut does not give you like strength. When I said "rivaling", I was thinking Venom's overall fighting ability rivaled Juggy, but (1) it was a poorly constructed sentence and (2) I just read the first link above, and damn... Can we get some source on the Hulk fight? If Venom has indeed lifted a tank (again, does someone actually have the comic?), then is there any information on what tank it is? Yes, some of the lightest fast attack tanks are in the 10-ton range, but the M1A1 is almost 70 tons, and there are several that are heavier. User:24.228.52.76, I've tried to remain open to your point of view, but I'm inclined not to just "take your word" on things. I assume good faith, but in light of the Venom / Juggernaut evidence copied directly from the comic, the "knocked around like a toy" comment seems not just out of context, but blatantly untrue. --MikeJ9919 17:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

That comic he copied was in the madness one not 2 or 3.

Okay, but it's the only reference provided. This page is the closest I've found to a summary on Madness 2 and 3, and it doesn't include any mention of Venom beating the Juggernaut, being stronger or even as strong as the Juggernaut, etc. I'm inclined to side with T-1000 unless you can provide some clear evidence. I'm also going to ask some other editors for help, as I don't want this to remain an isolated back-and-forth. I'd like clear editor consensus one way or the other. --MikeJ9919 22:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Just read the Madness 2 and 3 for proof. Any comic store will have it.

Why do you keep ignoring the fact the Venom was mutated, and we are talking about normal Venom on wikipedia? T-1000 03:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Being asked to weight in on this discussion, I have this to say: No series published more than five years ago accurately portrays what current writers or editors will consider the Venom symbiote's strength range. Not until the Marvel Handbook gets to Venom will we have an official listing, and even then, this is with the idea that individual writers will stick by these standards and not have grossly out of proportion performance levels in stories. Comic book heroes are notorious for not being consistent having changed hands from so many writers (see the comparison between pre-Crisis Superman and post-Crisis Superman currently happening in Infinite Crisis). At best, we can state that Venom has significant strength, superior to Spider-Man's, and what fluxuations can be charted (like taking on the Juggernaut). We can't say anything that happened in any one series or comic appearance is a constant of the character, but we can compare power differences in publishing history to inform the reader. Cybertooth85 02:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Normal Venom got utterly dominated against Juggeruant though, and there was a reason for The Madness 2 and 3. Like I said before, Venom was mutated. The fact that User:24.228.52.76 delibrately ignored this shows that he is biased and violating NPOV. T-1000 03:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

For a pic of the mutated Venom: see below. This is NOT the normal Venom.

[3]

I've never disputed that. Nevertheless, this information should be included. As Cybertooth85 said, we should give baseline information, with some additional details on unusual fluctuations. For example, "Venom demonstrated substantially increased strength while fighting Juggernaut, due to infection by the Mercurial Virus."--MikeJ9919 07:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC) Also, I should note that both of you are in violation of 3RR, and I'm thus listing you both for whatever remedy an admin may deem appropriate. I hope this doesn't stifle discussion here, but regardless of what dispute may be ongoing, violating 3RR is inappropriate. --MikeJ9919 07:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I rewrote some parts of the Powers and abilities section, what do you guys think? T-1000 04:43, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I like it

Reverting

I've asked User:24.228.52.76 not to revert through my copyediting and to discuss his issues with the substantive text on the Talk page before reimplementing it. He ignored this request and reverted with no discussion on the Talk page, with me, or (as far as I know) with T-1000. He has also included no explanation in his edit summaries. I propose a policy of reverting similar changes on sight unless some discussion is attempted. Please note I have no knowledge of the dispute nor interest in it beyond the fact that User:24.228.52.76 reverted twice through basic copyediting, which I find rude. I invite editor comment and consensus. --MikeJ9919 05:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I gave explanations for my writings in the texts itself and I never new this was here. I did not know what the hell you meant when you asked me to talk.

Fair enough. As I said, I have no knowledge about the actual source material behind the dispute. I just ask that you be more selective in your reversion. If the other editors believe your version is more accurate, I'd be happy to copyedit the text for you. Please try to be more civil, though. We're trying to write an encyclopedia, and we assume that other editors are trying to include the most accurate information possible. --MikeJ9919 19:20, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Mike - thanks for your attempts at mediation. I've blocked both for 12h as a wake-up call to them. Hopefully they will come back more prepared to compromise and discuss William M. Connolley 13:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I forgotten about the 3RR rule, but User:24.228.52.76 has revert again very soon after his ban expired and has continued to try to push for his point of view. Something needs to be done about this. T-1000 03:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I tried to make a comprimise of the two. I'd like the last two paragraphs to STOP being removed, since they are not part of the Venom-strength debate. --Viridis 03:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

even so, the non canon stuff about Superman needs to be removed. Also needs to mention Venom was mutated. T-1000 04:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Powers and Abilities Consensus

I'd like to move the discussion down here for a final consensus, so we can avoid having two discussions ongoing in the "Powers" section and the "Reverting" section above. I'd like to thank Viridis for his compromise, and endorse it along with T-1000's minor changes. I've made some very slight flow changes, as well as adding the actual name of the additional symbiote / sentient toxic waste, the Mercurial Virus. I would not mind a mention of the Superman / Venom fight, as long as it's made clear that there is no evidence that this crossover is considered canon. Otherwise, I endorse this version as a consensus compromise. Anyone else? --MikeJ9919 06:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind. I'm always surprised by how quickly these things seem to resolve themselves. Apparently everyone's happy with this version.--MikeJ9919 04:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Powers and abilities

To User:193.216.91.133

"This indicates the symbiote doesn't have any inner organs or cells as we know it; it is a living and morphing mass made up of alien molecules. Finally, the symbiote is able to heal the host (a power that all the symbiotes share), and can protect its host in numerous ways. For example: by making sure the host gets enough oxygen even if they are one the bottom of the ocean. It is possible some of these powers evolved on the alien planet in Secret Wars. Because of the strange force the planet was loaded with, which among other things made it possible for Captain America to fuse the broken pieces from his shield together again as a whole by using nothing more than his will power and later made it possible for Ben Grimm to split into two different bodies (The Thing and an evil Ben Grimm), this could have had an effect on other Marvel characters too, even on a subconscious level (it was on this planet the Hulk started to change again). The minds and fusion of the symbiote and Peter Parker on this planet could then have resulted in some sort of transformation of the symbiote, giving it new abilities, like Peter Parker's need for a place to hide his camera, the need for a web and the fact that this symbiote was able to copy most of his powers. Venom is the only known symbiote that has been able to copy the powers of its host, and it only happened once (with Spider-Man). Since then, they have stayed with him on a permanent basis, also the spider symbol on his chest and the webbing. Even his offspring have inherited such things as the look, the power to climb on all surfaces and not activating the spider-sense. If they were able to copy the power of other superhumans just by touch or making them their hosts, they would probably have done this a long time ago to make themselves even more powerful. Venom himself appears to be unable to repeat the trick. Which is another indication that what happened on the alien planet in Secret Wars was only possible there and then. Peter Parker is the only host (his first?) that has become negative affected in the partnership with the symbiote, being constantly tired and taken over by the suit when sleeping, while all the other hosts has become stronger, including those of his offsprings. It seems like the almost complete fusion with Spider-Man was a little too successful, as he as mentioned since then have kept Spider-Man's powers (except the spider-sense), the general look of the black suit and been unable to adapt to or copy the genetic profile of other hosts in the same degree or fuse with them in the same way it tried with Parker. During the time it was a part of Peter Parker, it became permanently transformed, a transformation that has clearly passed on to the next generations, making them different from their relatives on their home planet. A little longer, and it would probably have been impossible to separate Peter Parker and the symbiote when the merging process were complete. Because of this, Spider-Man has a strong connection with Venom and the other symbiotes on earth. In a way they are a part of him, and his influence on their powers and abilities is clear. (Carnage is different with his more intimate connection between symbiote and host, as another process was involved in the creation of him, infecting his bloodstream rather than just covering his body surface. Still, he has inherited most of Venom's powers and limitations)."

All of the above are just your opinion. look at the word in bold. Do you have anything to back all of this up? Do you have info from the comic that proves that the symbiote's powers are not innate? The part about the strange planet affecting the symbiote is again your speculation/opinion, as is the info on Peter Parker and the symbiote. You use a lot of weasel words like "possible" and "probably" which means you have no edvidence at all. Your paragraph is too long and the writing leaves much to be desired. Your edit clearly violates NPOV and it is Original Research. T-1000 00:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree. It is not my opinions, it is suggestions on how to explain existing elements about Venom that is not mentioned elsewhere. And unless someone can prove it is correct or incorrect, they will do just fine the way they are. It is also possible to think logic (for instance; even if it is not mentioned, we have to assume that a day still has 24 hours, the earth still has a moon, marsupials still exists in Australia and so on. This way of thinking also goes for characters in the Marvel universe). Even the writers of he Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe have used words as "possibly", "could" and "maybe". I also notice you are reverting everything I have written, not only my suggestions. For instance the parts about the mental powers and the example about providing oxygen to its host even if it is under water (as seen in a story where Venom thinks he has finally killed Spider-Man). Instead of just changing, you are removing everything, which is not the way to do it.

"Do you have anything to back all of this up?"

Amazing Spider-Man #258 and Peter Parker #96. There you can read that the parasite are trying to become a permanent part of Parker, and that it would probably have succeded if Reed Richards hadn't been able to remove it. Because the symbiote was captured and separated from Spider-Man, we will never know what would happened. Maybe it would have fused completely, and maybe it would have been possible to remove it after all. Based on the issues mentioned above, the word "probably" is what suits best in this case.

In Amazing Spider-Man, from #259 to #261, we also see that the symbiote communicates telepathic with a small flying machine from space and is trying to take mental control over Franklin Richards, even if the symbiote is still captured in the container.

And like I said, you are allowed to think logic. Since the symbiotes have never shown any signs to be able to copy someones powers, and no scientists have discovered any signs of this, and it only has happened once (on the alien planet in Secret Wars), it is not a bad suggestion that Venoms powers has something to do with what happened on that planet. He was different from the other symbiotes, but only because he wanted to fuse with the host instead of living as a pure parasite. So far there is nothing that indicates he had other powers. But some of his powers have never been found in any other symbiotes or in any other hosts than with Spider-Man. And there is one thing we can say for sure, which is that the spider symbol on his chest and the white areas where the web is coming from was not a part of the original look of the symbiote. Yet it has become a part of Venom. Just because there is no direct proves to be found in the comic books (yet), it doesn't mean assuming is wrong. In Spider-Man, fans claimed that it wasn't the fall from the bridge that killed Gwen Stacy, it Spider-Man who killed her when he stopped her using his web, causing her neck to crack. In issues years later, it turned out the fans were right. No matter how or why, when looking at Venom and the other symbiotes, it seems clear that the first contact between Spider-Man and the symbiote was something unique. All I did was to suggests an explanation.

"Do you have info from the comic that proves that the symbiote's powers are not innate?"

Well, do you have any info from the comic that they are? So just because neither I or you can prove it, it should not be mentioned at all even if there are a lot of indications about the nature of the character? This is one of those subjects which is an open question, and because if that, it is worth mentioning.

"Your edit clearly violates NPOV and it is Original Research."

Wikipedia includes such things as politics, science, history, religion and so on. So it is obvious that it is important not to allowe all kinds of people coming up with their own ideas and claims without any relieble sources. But in this case we are talking about a comic book character and its origin/powers, which has nothing to do with the real world at all. In the strange world of comic books, facts and data will often not exist until they are published. The past, future, present and characters are not always the same in the comic reality, it depends on who is the writer and editor for the moment. When some elements about a character are not clear or is unexplained, it is only natural for people to mention this in the article, and come up with (neutral) suggestions that explains these parts in a best possible way if the answear does not exist yet. This tells the readers the following things; there are some interesting and relevant elements that is still not explained, and that the explanation offered is not a claim but the best possible suggestions for the moment until some writer of the comic book gives us the full story and all the answears, leaving no doubt behind (in the world of comic books, the reality where the characters are living is shaped and built in front of our eyes, including the past, and no one knows what will happen next). Before this happens, it is important to show readers the difference between facts and explanations based on strong indications (but still not proven). When some proves does show up, all what is needed is to edit the article a bit. Or do you prefer the words "but nobody knows..." to all the unexplained parts?

If you don't like the way I write, then write it with your own words instead of just removing all of it. English is not my mother language, and I don't live and have never lived in an English speaking country, so I just have to do the best I can.

To User:193.216.91.133:

Suggestions fall under Original Research, as in "it introduces a theory or method of solution".

When something is unknown about a comic character, we just need to mention that it is unknown. It is not for us to speculate about the nature of the characters. Until Marvel comes out with new info confirming what you wrote, it should not be included in the article.

I will reinsert the part about the powers as well as a statement about the nature of the symbiote's powers. T-1000 17:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Questionable Venom Appearances

File:VeSpPu Bagley.jpg

Venom Spider-Man Punisher sketch

A sketch by Mark Bagley featuring Venom, Spider-Man and Punisher from mid '90 was not used for a comic yet.

Where does it come from?

Was there a backstory about this sketch?

Any info, please!

"We" Are Venom?

Does anyone want to add something about Venom's variably referring to himself as "we" and "I""? It seems to be thoroughly inconsistent in the comic books. When I was younger, I'd vehemntly defend that Venom was always "we" (Eddie Brock + alien symbiote), but, now, I think that this is just a moot point, perhaps deserving to be mentioned on Wikipedia's page.

(Commando303)

Merge

Per WP:CMC, Ultimate character articles should be merged into the articles of their Marvel U. counterparts.

Survey

• Merge --Chris Griswold 06:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge Dr Archeville
• Merge --Newt ΨΦ 14:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge --Jamdav86 12:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge --New User
• Merge --Bignole 22:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion closed with the result being Merge. --Chris Griswold 08:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

• Nowhere near enough information yet for a new article. --Newt ΨΦ 14:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I disagree; Venom is an unusually popular character and there is more than sufficient information to validate a second page for the Ultimate version. QuestionMark
    • Most of the information can be condensed to a much more reasonably merged amount. --Newt ΨΦ 20:32, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
      • I disagree, although Ultimate Venom's article can be slimmed down, it would still appear obtuse in the main Venom article beyond reference.
• When will the merge take place? Ultimate Spider man keeps getting its link redirected back to the Ultimate Venom page. ≈ Seraph 31 20:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Pork Grind

It would be awesome if in the alternate Venom section, an addition of Pork Grind, Venom from the Spider-Ham universe, could be added, especially with a picture.

Who is this article for

I'm trying to edit it a bit but I'm having trouble since I can't tell if its for Brock, the Symbiote, the combination that creates Venom or what. The symbiote itself isn't called Venom I don't think, but the combination of Brock and the symbiote is. Its worse because other characters are being called Venom because they are using the symbiote so then do you follow the symbiotes progress or Brocks? Darkwarriorblake 02:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Film?

I think that the Venom/Carnage film should still be made, albeit a few more years in the future.

Failed GA nomination

Venom is definitely one of the coolest characters in the Spider-Man universe, and I hate to fail the article, but it just doesn't quite make GA standards. I see that you guys have a lot of trouble with anonymous editors adding stuff that needs to be cited, but so far you've managed that well. The best section is "Ultimate Venom"; you should try to follow in the style of that section when writing the rest of the article.

• The whole article needs a grammar run-through; some sentences run on too long, some sentences have comma errors, others aren't even full sentences.

• The "Character History" section is very good, but I don't think you need that many headings. Also, make sure to sum up storyline events in the shortest terms possible. For example, instead of "Meanwhile, reporter Eddie Brock had been penning a number of articles in The Daily Globe on the recent Sin-Eater case. Following a false lead, he proceeded to write a series of columns identifying Emil Gregg as the perpetrator of the crimes. When Spider-Man caught the real criminal, policeman Stan Carter, Emil Gregg was discovered to be a compulsive confessor. The Globe became a laughing stock, Brock was fired and shunned by his peers. Brock took up weight lifting in the hopes of reducing his stress, but was unsuccessful in alleviating his obsessive hatred of Spider-Man", say "Reporter Eddie Brock began to hate Spider-Man after he ruined his reporting career by debunking one of his stories."

• In the "Powers and abilities" section:

• Drop the Eddie Brock section, as those are pretty normal abilities.
• Make it all one section, even the weaknesses part.

• "Appearance in other media" should be made primarily to prose. We don't need to know every single game or episode Venom was in; are people gonna care whether he was in a mobile phone game?

• Put a one-paragraph summary of the "Controversy over creator credit" into the article.

• Get some references. It sucks that people just add information of their own without citing it, I know. Use the comic books, and try to find some stuff online.

• As for images:

• Can you get a better infobox picture? The one now is a comic book cover, distracting because of all the various titles around his head.
• Venom's first confrontation with Spider-Man could go.
• Maybe a pic of Carnage and Venom fighting?
• Enlarge the image of Venom's bulletproof ability; good use of the image here.
• Take out all pictures below "Appearances in other media".

Don't forget to italicize comic book titles. Good luck. --Dark Kubrick 05:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

CHECKLIST

• The whole article needs a grammar run-through; some sentences run on too long, some sentences have comma errors, others aren't even full sentences.

• The "Character History" section is very good, but I don't think you need that many headings. Also, make sure to sum up storyline events in the shortest terms possible. For example, instead of "Meanwhile, reporter Eddie Brock had been penning a number of articles in The Daily Globe on the recent Sin-Eater case. Following a false lead, he proceeded to write a series of columns identifying Emil Gregg as the perpetrator of the crimes. When Spider-Man caught the real criminal, policeman Stan Carter, Emil Gregg was discovered to be a compulsive confessor. The Globe became a laughing stock, Brock was fired and shunned by his peers. Brock took up weight lifting in the hopes of reducing his stress, but was unsuccessful in alleviating his obsessive hatred of Spider-Man", say "Reporter Eddie Brock began to hate Spider-Man after he ruined his reporting career by debunking one of his stories."

• In the "Powers and abilities" section:

• Drop the Eddie Brock section, as those are pretty normal abilities.
• Make it all one section, even the weaknesses part.

DONE

• "Appearance in other media" should be made primarily to prose. We don't need to know every single game or episode Venom was in; are people gonna care whether he was in a mobile phone game?

DONE

• Put a one-paragraph summary of the "Controversy over creator credit" into the article.

DONE

• Get some references. It sucks that people just add information of their own without citing it, I know. Use the comic books, and try to find some stuff online.

• As for images:

• Can you get a better infobox picture? The one now is a comic book cover, distracting because of all the various titles around his head.
• Venom's first confrontation with Spider-Man could go.
• Maybe a pic of Carnage and Venom fighting?
• Enlarge the image of Venom's bulletproof ability; good use of the image here.
• Take out all pictures below "Appearances in other media".

DONE

Darkwarriorblake 21:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)