Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Octaviano Tenorio

Octaviano Tenorio

Octaviano Tenorio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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No independent sources. All "sources" of this article are either passive mentions (the Salt Lake Tribune article has a mention of Tenorio that is only one sentence long) or are connected with the LDS church, from which he draws his notability. pbp 16:43, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

• Keep To being with there is an attempt to cast drawing notability too widely. The LDS sources are indepth coverage because he is a major person to a religion with over 15 million members. Yet we have a source from the Salt Lake Tribune, which is absolutely not an LDS source. So why is it not accepted, because it is supposedly a "passive mention". However it is a mention that inherently shows that Tenorio is a widely respected and known person, it inherently shows that Tenorio is notable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:02, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Did you even read that article, @Johnpacklambert:? It's a passing mention about Octaviano in an article about [redacted]. There is one sentence about him in the article. Please familiarize yourself with notability guidelines before continuing to create articles or vote in AfDs. Also, there is no policy that states that high-ranking LDS officials are inherently notable. The size of the LDS church has no bearing on this discussion. If you believe that high-ranking LDS officials are inherently notable, create a discussion at one of the policy-changing forums on the topic. Until then, GNG reigns supreme, and this article fails GNG. pbp 17:15, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

You are the one who does not even try to understand the nature and meaning of the reference. Size of religious organizations does have a bearing on the importance and notability of their leadership.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:30, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

It's one sentence! ONE SENTENCE. That's the only independent reference in the article! Also, please provide me with the policy or guideline that being a mid-level official of a religion of a certain size means automatically notable. Oh, right, there is one. pbp 17:42, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Tenorio is not a "mid-level" official. He is one of the top international leaders of the Church.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:12, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. It doesn't matter if he is the biggest chief of all time. What matters is whether he passes WP:GNG. Please, JPL go reqd qnd study GNG. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:53, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

• Delete - fails WP:GNG. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:14, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
• Delete. Clearly fails WP:GNG. The article's creator Johnpacklambert (JPL) confuses the concept of notability with the concept of importance. The policy at GNG is that there should multiple independent and reliable references to sustain an article about this individual. In this case there is only:

1. A mention in a book published by Brigham Young University, which the head article notes in its lede "is owned and operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Regardless of the size of the coverage there, it fails the independence part of the GNG requirement for significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.
2. A passing mention in an article about his brother. That fails the "significant" part of the GNG test.

So there is precisely nothing to count towards WP:GNG. The article's creator, JPL, seems to be aware of this, because he has just proposed amending the notability guidelines to create an exception for "Leaders in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other religious organizations", specifically to rescue this article. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:17, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

• Notice. I removed a sentence from the article and redacted part of two sentences from this discussion. Please read WP:BLP. I would strongly recommended not discussing that topic any further. Herostratus (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
• Delete "People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject." Article doesn't have this. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:06, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

• Keep. Squeaks in under WP:GNG, arguably. I added two refs to the Deseret News, which the Deseret News is owned by a church, but so is the Christian Science Monitor and they are both reliable and notable sources of general news -- although granted the Deseret News does also include Mormon church news (but then, that's important to life in Salt Lake City no matter what your persuasion). One of the sources has a couple sentences about him, but also quotes him, and the entire article is, while not about him, about the Missionary Training Center of which he is the head. The other source is a full mini-biography talking about his posts and his familiy and what have you.

So there's your multiple (two) coverages which are (arguably) "significant coverage" in a major general-audience newspaper.

In addition to that there're full bios of him elsewhere. Sure they're internal church organs, but it's a big and important church and people read this stuff. Liahona is notable enough to have an article here; it's not nothing. It counts some.

In addition, for your tie-breakers, he's A Grand Poobah or whatever of pretty big church, and there are only 100 Grand Poobahs, and that matters, and he's head of the church's second biggest Missionary Training Center, and Training Missionaries is central to this church's whole shebang. So he's an important guy.

And there's probably more stuff out there. I found those two sources in two minutes of looking. Keep. Herostratus (talk) 21:18, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

@Herostratus: I don't think your keep vote is particularly rooted in policy. For one, I don't consider Deseret News to be an independent source. You mention the Christian Science Monitor: I can understand using the CSM to cite a random bio, but I would give pause at using it as the primary means of determining notability for a poobah in the Christian Science Church. The same logic applies to the Deseret News: acceptable for ascertaining notability of a non-Mormon, not as much for a Mormon (Note that that doesn't mean it can never be used as a source. It just means that Mormon officials need to have citations from other works in addition to it to pass the reliable, independent sources threshold). Also, the poobah argument has been discounted above as not being rooted in policy. pbp 21:39, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Which source is intellectually independent and has significant coverage of the subject? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:52, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

My vote is rooted in policy, specifically WP:GNG and I explained why and how. My take on the Deseret News is that it's not a religious paper but rather a large, long-established, distinguished, notable, neutral, professionally written and edited and fact-checked general-audience general-news entity with a large circulation.

And as I explained, in addition to maybe passing WP:GNG (depending on how you cock your head), what's the hurry to get rid of this article? There's plenty of church sources for info on the person. And it appears the guy is a major behind-the-scenes player in the world. Presidency of the Mexico City Missionary Training Center alone makes him a (minor) player on the world stage, notwithstanding that this is behind the scenes and less likely to garner press attention than if he played shortstop for the Dodgers. How does it help the project to say to readers "Well, you came here looking for info on this important person, but guess what? You're on your own". We're not rule-bound here, we're here to serve the reader. Herostratus (talk) 22:51, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

The same can be said for every YouTube "personality". Just wait and sources will turn up somewhere... some time... --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:03, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

@Herostratus: The distinction behind important behind-the-scenes figures and important on-stage figures does matter, because our rules say that there must be reliable, independent sources. If you don't like it, change them...but they are there for reasons. pbp 00:18, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

There are sufficent refs in the Deseret News to support a stub article, IMO. It's MO and you don't have to agree. It's borderline and there's no way to be certain who is "right". I think I am but who knows?

The other refs are not good for establishing whether the article should exist, but if it is allowed to (by the Deseret News refs), they are considered reliable and useable to fill the article out to its present useful size and make it be another ornament to the project. Herostratus (talk) 00:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

• Delete. This isn't really that hard. Is he generally notable? If so, he will have significant press coverage in neutral sources. Nothing significant in neutral sources? Conversation can end. If he is generally notable, and he becomes so widely known that a significant number of people will come to wikipedia looking for information on him, then significant press coverage from neutral sources will happen. The NYT, WSJ, and WashPo aren't ignoring him despite his importance because of his religious affiliation; if they're ignoring him, it's because he's not newsworthy. He's still an important human being; people can still love him, respect him, and admire him -- he just doesn't meet a notability standard on a website he doubtlessly isn't losing any sleep over. Deltopia (talk) 00:50, 9 July 2016 (UTC)