Talk:Ignatius of Antioch

An event mentioned in this article is an October 17 selected anniversary.

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Note: I'm not comfortable about my identification of Philadelphia in this article with Amman; I seem to remember that there was a Philadelphia in Anatolia (which is mentioned in Book of Revelations), but so far there is no Wiki article about it, nor is it mentioned in the Philadelphia (disambiguation) page. (I'm adding this information from memory, without any of my references at hand.) -- llywrch 16:40 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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What's the deal with the fact that he wrote in run-on sentences? Mydotnet

I was wondering this too. Many ancient languages did not use literary/organizational things like sentences. Ashleyisachild

Ancient Greek did indeed have sentences. They just aren't organized the way modern English ones are. Translations (which will always be approximate at best) simply reflect this reality. --Preost 02:16, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with ASDamick. Ancient Greek is in all capital letters, no spaces and no periods or accent marks. But the grammar was more advanced than modern English: there are words and nouns and verbs ... and sentences.

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I have translated Theophorus "vessel of God." would 'instrument of god" be more accurate in this context? I have added a good deal more and a Catholic Encyclopedia link. Better vet my additions. --Wetman 19:33, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Theophoros

Theophoros literally means "God-bearer." It comes from the word meaning "to carry." In Greek usage, something that is _____phoros is something that carries _____. For instance, a rassophore monk is a monk who wears a rasso (a kind of garment). In Orthodox Christian theology (the Church which still seems to pay the most attention to Ignatius), at least, there is a strong sense that Christians are all called to be bearers of God, i.e., theophoroi, bearing God inside of themselves.

Yes, I was looking for a sensible rendering of -phoros. So "vessel of God" is acceptable after all.--Wetman 19:51, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd prefer "bearer of God," but "vessel of God" works, as well. Preost

Category:Catholic martyrs

I've now twice removed the anonymous addition of the Catholic martyrs category. The reason is that it's somewhat anachronistic to claim a 2nd century bishop of Antioch as a "Catholic martyr." Such a distinction as "Catholic" hadn't really taken by that point, and the almost necessary association that would be made by inclusion in such a category would be to the modern day Roman Catholic Church (especially since the category is a sub-category of Category:Roman Catholics), which Ignatius certainly would not have had a sense of himself belonging to, certainly not as something which is so clearly out of communion with the church he was bishop of.

If any such distinction is to be made, he would be an "Orthodox martyr" rather than "Catholic," especially since he tends to be much more highly regarded by Orthodox Christians than by Roman Catholic ones. A whole patriarchate of the Orthodox Church regards him as their patron. But of course when St. Ignatius was martyred, the two churches were still one. To claim him for either "side" is implicitly to deny that.

In any event, "Christian martyrs" is good enough, it seems to me. To claim Ignatius as a "Catholic," especially as some subset of "Roman Catholic," is to do injustice to the historical reality. —Preost ^{talk contribs} 20:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

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I just removed a rather long passage that appeared to be an apologia written by a Seventh-Day Adventist - a long, convoluted attempt to "prove" that Ignatius was not actually advocating Sunday worship, when he obviously was. Carlo 02:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just removed a slab of quotations that did nothing more than to confirm that, yes, Ignatius did use the word "bishop". -- llywrch 04:09, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Disciple of apostles?

What is the basis for the following: "Ignatius, who also called himself Theophorus ("bearer of God"), was most likely a disciple of both Apostles Peter and John."? It sounds like christian guesswork and/or wishfull thinking 62.79.77.252 20:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Not sure why you think it's hard to believe: Peter and John were real people, and Ignatius was a first-century bishop of possibly the most important city in the early Christian Church, Antioch.

The idea that he was the disciple of John comes from the Martyrdom of Ignatius, which purports to have been written by those who accompanied him on his journey to Rome. He is also close to Polycarp, whom Irenaeus - disciple of Polycarp - says was a disciple of John.

The idea that he was a disciple of Peter I had not heard. I guess it comes from his being a bishop of a city that Peter was previously (one brief one removed) bishop of. It doesn't seem unlikely, but I don't see much solid to back it up, so I changed that part. I'll clean it up as soon as I figure out how to properly footnote. Carlo 00:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The ideas you mentioned came from Christians in the 4th & 5th century, some declared, one anonymous. Here is an extract from my website, http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/ignatius.html which I am trying to have posted as a link:

"The seven letters are considered quasi-canonical by the Catholic Church (& some other ones) and the historical justification for many of its doctrines. One of the reasons would be Ignatius' alleged acquaintance with Jesus' disciples, as first "revealed" centuries later by bishops John Chrysostom (347-407) & Theodoret (393-457).

From the "Catholic Encyclopedia, St. Ignatius of Antioch":

"St. John Chrysostom lays special emphasis on the honor conferred upon the martyr in receiving his episcopal consecration at the hands of the Apostles themselves ("Hom. in St. Ig.", IV. 587).

Natalis Alexander quotes Theodoret to the same effect (III, xii, art. xvi, p. 53)."

"Theodoret ("Dial. Immutab.", I, iv, 33a, Paris, 1642) is the authority for the statement that St. Peter appointed Ignatius to the See of Antioch"

And from the 'Martyrium Ignatii', ch.1:

"Ignatius, the disciple of John the apostle, a man in all respects of an apostolic character""

This Wikipedia page is unfortunatly one-sided.Bernard

Proposed link

I have been instructed to post my website: http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/ignatius.html for review. Please, if any reader think it is worth to be posted, do so. Bernard Muller