User talk:GeelJire

Welcome!

Hello, GeelJire, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially your edits to Garhajis. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Derek Andrews (talk) 12:00, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

English Translation?

Derek Andrews Hello derek , thanks for the welcome and i appreciate your help with the article. I just wanted to clarify that the article is already in English and doesn't need a translation. Only four poems are in the Somali language and i explained their contents in the paragraphs that precede them. Also i'll change the names in the Clan tree section to English for a easier reading. GeelJire (talk) 12:59, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the poetry, as they were a digression (United States, for example, doesn't include the full text and discussion of songs written to protest the Vietnam War). Further, there's a good chance that they are protected by copyright, so I'm going to submit the versions of the article that contain them for WP:Revision deletion. Largoplazo (talk) 13:59, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

The poems were my main source of concern. Without an English translation they aren't relevant in their entirety on the English Wikipedia. I'm also not clear about their relevance, but perhaps if they are notable in their own right, might be the subject of separate articles, though the comments above about copyright violations are something that Wikipedia takes very seriously. Canu Llywarch Hen is an example of how a welsh poem has been handled. You might seek guidance elsewhere on how best to proceed, as this is not a subject I have any experience in. With regard to the clan tree, this is verging on genealogy, a subject that Wikipedia has guidelines about - WP:NOTGENEALOGY and see Wikipedia:WikiProject Genealogy which may help. As it stands, the clan tree leaves me rather baffled as to its structure and significance. Dates might help. Again, welcome to Wikipedia, and don't be put off by these teething problems. There is a lot to learn about guidelines and policies. Derek Andrews (talk) 15:02, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Derek Andrews Again , thanks for the advice and suggestions. The poems have been removed , the article can do without them , no worries.

About the Clan tree , it's a male patrilineal clan tree and is very important to Somali clans , especially if you want learn their many sub-branches. Every other Article on Somali clans has a clan tree with similiar structure to mine and they've been on wikipedia for years without any issue. So i don't see why mine would rasie any issues. GeelJire (talk) 06:37, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

talk LargoplazoThe reason poetry is given weight in this article is because it's about a Somali clan and in Somali culture history is recorded in poems , we are an oral society. And since you deleted the actual poems, i thought adding a short commentary on the poem by a historian would be alright. And i disagree with you , i don't think it's a 'Digression' as you put it , since it logically follows from the preceding paragraphs and explains the events that caused the poem to be recited and its very nature. GeelJire (talk) 11:31, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Write about the events and source your writing to reliable sources. History of France doesn't tell us about poems about French history, or about other sources of information about French history, or quote at length what arbitrary historians tell us such poems or other sources have to tell us about French history. The article tells us about French history (and then has footnotes to sources). It doesn't suddenly start focusing on specific pieces of French music or French art or French couture.

Whether the poems are other sources are written or passed down through oral tradition is immaterial to the comparison I just made. And to use them as sources, they have to pass muster under the guidelines of WP:RS and WP:NPOV. Heaven knows oral tradition isn't necessarily either reliable or neutral.

This doesn't mean that an article on the clan wouldn't have a Culture section explaining that there is a poetic tradition, but to suddenly pull up a specific poem is getting into WP:COATRACK territory. There is no place for the article to have commentary like "The Isaq are portrayed as particularly callous and shameful in the way they parade looted Ogaden camels in front of their previous owners." Wikipedia is not in the business of casting such judgments, calling people or their actions "callous" or "shameful", whether or not this is sourced to a poem. If your justification for talking about these poems is that you are doing so to exploit them as sources of objective historical information, well, that isn't what you're doing. Largoplazo (talk) 11:49, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

About the Clan tree , it's a male patrilineal clan tree and is very important to Somali clans , especially if you want learn their many sub-branches. Every other Article on Somali clans has a clan tree with similiar structure to mine and they've been on wikipedia for years without any issue. So i don't see why mine would rasie any issues. GeelJire (talk) 06:37, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I have two problems with the clan tree. Firstly, how is it structured and interpreted? While it might make sense to a Somali, I suspect that most others will be left puzzled. What is the significance of the bolded people, the indenting and the relationship between any of them? In some instances part of their name is the same, and in others there is no similarity. Or are these names of sub-clans, not people? I have looked for guidance at Demographics_of_Somalia#Clan_structure and am not much the wiser. Secondly, this whole section is unreferenced, and without references the information cannot be verified, which is a cornerstone of everything we write here.

I have had a look for previous discussions on this topic. All I have found was at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia (items 11 and 13 in the table of contents). I agree with the comments made by User:Gyrofrog: "It needs to be comprehensible by anyone, and there needs to be a threshold for inclusion. It might make better sense on Somali Wikipedia, but where I also expect there is a similar policy or guideline in place regarding notability, verifiability, readability etc. The information also needs to be verifiable"

I am going to ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia for them to develop guidelines for these trees, interms of acceptable content and a standardised layout (with explanation). Derek Andrews (talk) 12:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Derek Andrews The indented names are the Sub-clan patriarchs and the names that come under them are sub sub-clans descended from this patriarch. None of them are living people. GeelJire (talk) 12:51, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Largoplazo You're comparing French History to Somali History. Apples and Oranges. Poetry doesn't have a central position in French culture or the way they convey their history, but in Somali culture it does , so including a Poem or Two is alright and sometimes necessary to give context. You deleted the poems , fair enough. But why are you against a short excerpt from an English written book describing the poem and the events that caused them to be recited ? , and why are so concerned about the words "Callous" and "Shamefully" ? those are the authors words and he is describing the poets point of view on how his people were treated. First you said you deleted the excerpt beacause it 'digressed' then you said you had a problem with the words in it , it seems like you have a problem with this article and you might have personal conflict with it and are just justfying your edits with whatever comes to mind. Also , your edits have left the article an incoherent mess with no continiuity whatsoever. This is pure vandalism GeelJire (talk) 14:18, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

No, I'm comparing apples to apples. History is history. One person's analysis of a poem in which he observes that they soiled themselves doesn't belong any more in a history of a Somali clan than in the history of any other people on the face of the planet that has a history of conflicts and conquest. Do you know that people didn't soil themselves at the Battle of the Bulge or in the Boer Wars or at the Nanking Massacre? Is this what you think we talk about on Wikipedia?

Your idea that this clan is magically different from all the other peoples of the world is loaded with bias. History is rife with peoples memorializing their conflicts in song and story: "Le Chanson de Roland", "The Charge of the Light Brigade", "In Flanders Fields", "Where Have All The Flowers Gone", etc. You are giving WP:UNDUE weight to the specifics of specific poems in a section that is about history, not about people's poetic reflections on this history. See what mention is made at Crimean War of the Tennyson poem The Charge of the Light Brigade. That's an appropriate level of coverage. The poem itself is mentioned, and that's the end of it. It is in no way cited as a source to support any of the information in the article, nor to give color to the events of the battle, because it isn't Wikipedia's job to give color to things. It's a reference work, not intended to evoke or stir emotion. Largoplazo (talk) 14:30, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

If you want to create an article on Garhaji poetry, that's a different matter altogether. Largoplazo (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Largoplazo Creating a Garhajis poetry article is unnecessary. I'll remove the 'defecating' parts but i contest the removal of the excerpt on the Guba poem.GeelJire (talk) 14:42, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I've listed this dispute at WP:Third opinion. Largoplazo (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

As for "it seems like you have a problem with this article and you might have personal conflict with it and are just justfying your edits with whatever comes to mind", I love it when people are so convinced that I can't possibly mean what I said (no matter how concretely I've explained it!) that I must be operating under some other agenda, and start accusing me of doing so. Why in the world would I have a problem with this article? Did I express one note of concern about anything in this article that was relevant and that is typical of the sort of information found in an article about a people? Read WP:AGF and just do not try to defend your position by pointing fingers at imaginary motives. Largoplazo (talk) 14:53, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps what GeelJire is saying is that Somali history is written in poetic form rather than prose? If so then it might be used as a reference, with perhaps a quotation included in the reference. But I would really like input from an expert Somali historian to weigh in on this. If 'oral tradition' is being used, I think that needs to be made very clear in the text, i.e. oral history says that... but I really don't think it is reliable and we start getting close to the realm of writing about mythology. I am also concerned about the article becoming a battle ground between feuding clans. Derek Andrews (talk) 00:59, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Third opinion

Response to third opinion request:

The dispute is generally supposed to take place on the article's talk page, not on one user's talk page. At any rate, I removed this entry because the dispute is between more than two editors. Consider opening a thread at WP:DRN. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 17:29, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Awal & Garhajis populations, My opinion

Hi Geeljire,

For what it's worth the population explosion in western Somaliland since the late 1950's onward has occured entirely in Habar Awal areas. This is a commonly accepted fact. You can look at the recent Somaliland election voter turnout to see Somaliland's population is more concentrated in the west. I highly doubt that Garhajis is larger than Awal today as most of the population growth in Somaliland has taken place in Hargeisa and areas west of it. I think something like 60-70% of Somaliland's population lives along the Hargeisa-Gabiley-Wajaale-Kalabaydh-Borama stretch which is dominated by Sacad Muuse until the Awdal Border at Dilla. Jibril Abokor which dominate in this area are probably one of the largest and fastest growing subclans in the nation, which wasn't the case 50 years ago. So it is both possible that Garhajis was larger than Awal in 1950 and today Awal is larger than Garhajis due to the exponential nature of population growth.

If you follow Somali politics at all, a prominent Western analyst named Matt Bryden estimated in a consultant report that Hargeisa-Gabiley-Wajaale-Kalabaydh-Borama has a larger population than Mogadishu today back in 2016. I can find the source for you if you'd like.

He starts speaking about Somaliland population clusters at around 48:45 int the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZmWu2Yf57I

Also lastly, using a colonial source pre-independence is highly problematic when talking about a nation as young as Somaliland.

Linkjan2014 (talk) 05:02, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello Linkjan2014

Using the Somaliland election voter turnout is highly problematic and can't be used to accurately estimate populations , one reason being is a lot of people don't vote , and when you consider the case of the Garhajis , who at least 60% reside in the Somali ethiopian regions and who are mostly reer mii (countryside folks) you'll see how flawed it is to to use voter turnouts as a way to approximate population. Also , the Habar Awal are more urbanized and densely populated and mostly reside in Somaliland and a specific region of Somaliland , weheras the Garhajis are dispersed in all Somaliland regions except Awdal and are dispersed in the Hawd region of ethio. All these factors considered and it's not surprising that Habar awal had a much significant votership.

And another thing that is flawed in your reasoning that Habar awal is larger than Garhajis , is that you have to assume that the Garhajis suffered a huge population drop that only a catycalysimic event could cause or that they simply stopped breeding. Think about it sxb , Habar Yoonis , a sub-clan of Garhajis was estimated to be the same size as Habar Awal , so how could they suddenly overtake the whole of Garhajis within 3 generations?. That is simply illogical. Only a mass epidemic like ebola or a genocide on par with tutsi geocide can take a toll on a population like that.

Anyway sxb , this is wikipedia , it's not a place for opinion or "commonly accepted knowledge" , it's a place where certain claims need some backing , and the british protectrate population estimates are the best thing we have , if you can find a more accurate population estimate from a reiable source , i'll gladly concede. But i do agree that the Habar Awal are the second largest Isaaq and clan and the largest clan within the Somaliland borders.

I just wanted to say thank you for having this discussion with me , i appreciate your willingless for dialouge unlike saaxiibkeen Cosby who seems to be ducking me. I have already made clear my not wanted to engage in a petty edit war , i'd rather talk it out first and establish the facts. GeelJire (talk) 05:31, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

If I may make a comment here, much of what Linkjan2014 suggests above is dealt with by Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:No original research in particular any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. The proper way to handle areas of uncertainty (if it is really needed to enhance the article, and is done from a neutral point of view) would be to discuss the verifiable sources, ie X estimated in 1956 that ..., which is somewhat contrary to.... We deal in verifiable facts here; if there are none, we don't write about them. In this case the facts are that there are estimates, but seemingly no totally reliable census data.

So, lets look at the opening sentence which says Garhajis ... largest sub-clan of the Isaaq which is supposedly verified here [1]. But that reference doesn't even mention Garhajis! I can see though that it is the sum of the Iidagalle and Habar Yoonis. But could perhaps two other sub-clans be totalled in the same way to a higher number? Without a source saying it is the largest sub-clan, it would be more accurate to just say that the an estimate published in 1999 puts their numbers at 170,000. This is both verifiable and neutral. Derek Andrews (talk) 12:37, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

The Isaaq clan has 3 major clans. The Garhajis , which is the Habar yoonis and idagalle sub-clans. The Habar Toljaala , which is the Mohammed abokor , Muuse Abokor and Umar sub-clans. The Habar Awal , which is the Sa'ad Muuse and Iise Musa sub clans.

In the Book i cited as a source they are all listed separately as sub clans. I merely combined the sub-clans. For example , i added the population esitmates of Iise Muuse and Sa'ad Muuse (Habar Awal) together and did the same with the other sub clans , and the combination of Habar Yoonis and Iidagale (Garhajis) was the highest. So i think the claim that Garhajis ... largest sub-clan of the Isaaq is justified.

Also , You can't just add any clans to each other unless they belong to the same sub-clan. For example i can't add Iise Muuse to Iidagale as one belongs to the Habar Awal and one to the Garhajis. If you wanted to estimate the populations of California you can't add the populations of cities from a diffrent state  like New york , you can only count the cities which are in California. It's anagolous to that.

thank you Derek Andrews Your comments are very much welcomed. All these Somali clans names and their classifications names must be very confusing for you , apologies lol. You'll get use to them.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Perhaps that should really be done in the article to explain your claim. The best way of handling that in my view would be with a 'note'. In case you aren't familiar with the syntax:

<ref group = note>Put your explanation here, with a ref to your source. </ref>

Then at the end of the article, before the references:

==Notes==

{{reflist|group = note}}

Thanks, Derek Andrews (talk) 11:43, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Again

Thanks again for the backup against the troll inadeer. Rest assured if you ever need help with your pages in a similar fashion, you can count on me.

Linkjan2014 (talk) 04:01, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

No problem bro , whenever i need a fair balanced moderator , i'll call on you Linkjan2014

hi Geeljire and User:Linkjan2014, mildesco is back with sock bayesdam on Tog Wajaale, can you open a sock investigation. 144.64.86.120 (talk) 21:56, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

talk I don't edit the Tog wajaale page so i'm not really familiar with mildesco , was he previously banned for sockpuppeting ?. Do you have convincing evidence that links mildesco to bayesdam or is it just a hunch?. If you do have evidence that might link these users , evidence that we can present to Wiki admins , please gather them here and i'll report him/her. GeelJire (talk) 01:12, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

3 days after Mildesco was banned for socking, Bayesdam created an account and began to continue edit warring on Tog Wajaale. Mildesco removed reer nur sub clan presence [2] another user re added it and then Bayesdam removed it because mildesco is banned [3] Mildesco is sock of Habar Awal king, he makes accounts everytime he is banned [4] 105.158.46.208 (talk) 13:06, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

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A cup of tea for you!

For creating William Archibald Macfadyen Seraphim System (talk) 11:51, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Macfayden image

Hi, I tagged one of your images at commons - presumably the source country for the image is the UK - (I think Elsevier is a UK company) - it is outside copyright in the US, but it needs the copyright status in the UK also. Please add this or the image may be removed from Commons. Seraphim System ^(talk) 03:04, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Dervish State

Greetings. Was wondering if I can get your thoughts on the issue of the name Dervish (State) and whether its appropriate for the article. Academic literature seem to frame it as Dervish Resistance/Uprising/Movement and not State. Any thoughts on a name change for the article? Here is the talk page discussion Talk:Dervish_state#Name_change_proposal Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 16:12, 23 August 2018 (UTC)