Talk:Socialism

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Nordic model

There is nothing in Socialism#Nordic_model about socialism. This short section is primarily based on Esping-Andersen, G. (1991). The three worlds of welfare capitalism. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. Esping-Andersen's seminal book is actually called Welfare Capitalism, not Socialism..... So what is the basis for claiming that the "Nordic Model" is socialism? --— Erik Jr. 17:48, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Nordic model seems a more complete and fulsome discussion of the relationship between the Nordic model, social democracy, capitalism and socialism. The truth is, with any system impacted by social democracy there's going to be the question of, "is this, in fact, socialism?" - as Wikipedia should stay neutral in the dispute between reformists and revolutionary socialists over who is and isn't a True Scotsman, I'd say we can definitely keep reference to the Nordic Model in this article, linking back to the full article which provides additional context. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps, but still: the sources cited in this short section does not place the Nordic model within the socialism spectrum. Esping-Andersen use the term "capitalism" or "welfare capitalism". So if no sources supporting the notion that the nordic model is socialist, the section should be removed or modified. --— Erik Jr. 18:27, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I only can bring sources in spanish about the subject in case they are any useful; (I'm not aware if Norway politics changed recently though)

https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/-por-que-noruega-siendo-socialista-se-convirtio-en-un-pais-rico--20145416210 (liberal newspaper from Chile)

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/1637298-noruega-el-unico-socialismo-del-siglo-xxi (conservative/right wing newspaper from Argentina; title implies all other kinds of socialism outside Norway didn't worked)

https://elpais.com/diario/2011/10/30/eps/1319956015_850215.html (conservative newspaper from Spain)

Is Norway the last socialist state in Europe? When asked, the finance minister, the Labourist Sigbjørn Johnsen, smiles and moves on to another topic. At the end of the interview, the director of communication puts things in place with an icy gesture: "Socialists, yes, but democratic."

Regards. --Agustin6 (talk) 19:35, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

A section dedicated to the Nordic model is not appropriate in this article because it is widely recognized as a form of capitalism and not a form of socialist economy. Because social democratic parties in some Nordic countries (Sweden and Denmark) played a significant role in shaping the social and labor market policies of these countries, it would be appropriate to reference it in the history section as a partial result of social democratic politics from the 1930s-1980s. But an entire section devoted to it is unwarranted because it is not a form of socialism, and I suspect this section was added at some point to make a political statement. -Battlecry 10:04, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I suggest we need to, per WP:NPOV cleave to what reliable sources have to say on the subject, rather than getting drawn into the debate between reformists and revolutionaries. Simonm223 (talk) 12:05, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, reliable scholarly sources, opinion pieces in newspapers are light weight in this context. — Erik Jr. 13:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Battlecry with regard to political statements. It's been happing to several articles on, or related to the topic. The source provided doesn't support the idea of the Nordic model as being socialist. Sure the Nordic countries have been influenced by socialist movements, but it's a stretch to label them such today. For the section to make any sense, it needs to explain what makes its history influced by socialism, which it currently does not do. I suggest a heavy modification. Justm (talk) 19:08, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Is the word of director of communication of Sigbjørn Johnsen (cited above) light weight? --Agustin6 (talk) 06:18, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Very much so. The nameless aide is simply a spokesperson dealing with the press. I managed to narrow it down to Signe Bunkholt Sæter, which served under minister Johnsen for two years. She's a former journalist turned lobbyist. I think we can safely assume her words as pretty light weight and heavily biased. Justm (talk) 18:59, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

It makes no sense to single out the Nordic countries in particular to include a section for since there is no policy specific to the Nordic countries that isn't implemented elsewhere. The section also doesn't include anything defined under socialism in this article. It also links to another article that hardly mentions socialism at all. Hence, this section should be removed. 193.234.42.32 (talk) 12:03, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

• can we detail that it is a mixed-model??2404:4408:20C3:9800:ED83:B08B:469F:7F72 (talk) 09:53, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

We should continue to maintain a section on the Nordic Model (AKA Social Democracy) though with substantial changes for the following reasons:

• Many people mistake it for socialism and others view it as mixed socialist/capitalist system. This stems from the modern idea that strong welfare, universal healthcare, and strong labor union systems are "socialist" in nature, view many people hold these days. So even if the Nordic Model is not a true socialist system in the traditional sense, it is seen as having socialist elements. Other dispute this idea since traditional socialism advocates ALL resources be owned by the people collectively, by way of the government, Social Democracies do not do this (for the most part).
• Some modern politicians, such as Bernie Sanders, while describing themselves a "Democratic Socialists", have been characterized by others as being more "social democratist" (i.e. Nordic model advocates) rather then traditional socialists due to the policy positions being more along those lines (such as advocating for universal healthcare, strong labor unions, strong welfare states, strong regulation of corporations, etc.) without specifically advocating the government take over all sorts of industries.

As such I advocate we modify that section explain how the Nordic Model is commonly mistaken for socialism (in the traditional sense), how the terms socialism and democratic socialism have been used as a synonym for the Nordic model/social democracy. We can also address the debate over whether a mixed economy (capitalism combines with social welfare state) is in any way "socialist" or not and how the term socialism has expanded in meaning in recent decades, based on how many millennial have used the term as a synonym for social democracy. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 19:36, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

The way the Nordic model is presented (as a variant of socialism) is clearly misleading. So the section should either be removed from the article (because there is no support for "socialism" as a label on the nordic system) or substantially changed to adress some common misunderstandings. The section must however be based on scholarly sources, without proper sources the section should be removed as soon as possible.— Erik Jr. 11:16, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

The Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen, in his speech at Harvard in 2015, described is own country as "not socialist". Here is the link to one of the reports about it: https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist - so could you please stop the discussion if Denmark is socialist or not? It is not. Thank you.

Nordic model - please remove from article

There is no support in scholarly sources for including the Nordic model. To describe the Nordic model as socialism is clearly misleading. --— Erik Jr. 13:40, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Pleas see my response to the above debate about whether the Nordic Model is socialism in anyway and thus weather it belongs in this article in the above discussion on the Nordic model. I believe the "Nordic Mode" should be mentioned in this article but we need to explain why it not traditional socialism, why it's often described as such in the U.S., and so forth. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 19:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Gert Hekma

It's a small change, but one of the refs mentions Gert Hekma, which could be linked to Gert Hekma. --77.173.90.33 (talk) 23:56, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done NiciVampireHeart 06:57, 19 February 2019 (UTC)