Talk:Fall of Constantinople

Infobox

The infobox has become a mess, any chance of fixing it? 77.166.30.3 (talk) 11:26, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I've fixed some, but it needs to be resized. I'm working on that now. Even if that is fixed, it will still appear somewhat messy until page numbers are provided for some of the citations.--Jpbrenna (talk) 18:39, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Update: I will be working on this later tonight. I think that I inadvertently removed or added something when I was templating references and fixing other things, and I haven't found it yet, so I will be going through the whole thing line-by-line tonight.--Jpbrenna (talk) 23:00, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

I have tried removing the notes and notelist and several other things to get it to re-size and nothing works. I can't see that I'm removing any formatting from the infobox when I update the citations, so I'm not sure what is causing the problem.--Jpbrenna (talk) 06:55, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

John of Reading seems to have solved the problem. I'm not sure if some of the <br> tags were <wbr> before and I broke them, or if adding extra characters made it necessary. --Jpbrenna (talk) 08:06, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks dude, my brain got fried after seeing the mess :)) 77.166.30.3 (talk) 11:17, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Jpbrenna Do you think the notes in the infobox are necessary? The font is so tiny I can't even read them — I think it would be better to work them into the article (maybe as footnotes.) Seraphim System ^(talk) 14:17, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I just updated the existing footnotes. They were out of order, so I used a template that automatically ordered them and should help keep any subsequent additions ordered as well. I am agnostic about where they should appear. I don't have any trouble reading them myself, but I can see how it would be an issue with phones and other smaller devices. --Jpbrenna (talk) 20:30, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Would any other editors object to the infobox footnotes being worked into the article? If not, I am going to be bold and create a footnotes section for the article, since Jpbrenna is agnostic (indifferent?) Seraphim System ^(talk) 21:26, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

If we are going to move them, I think that they should be merged into the existing Notes section instead of a new "Footnotes" section. You should be able to do this by simply converting the {{efn|}} tags in the infobox to {{refn|group="nb"|}}. If you want them grouped separate from the other notes, but still in the Notes section, you could create a new group, perhaps calling it "ibn" for "Infobox Notes", add a template for that, and then create subsections called "Infobox Notes" and "Article Notes" to contain them. But I would first wait to see whether a consensus exists for moving them from the infobox. --Jpbrenna (talk) 16:46, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for your contributions and participation! I'm late to this discussion, and I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but the various estimates and citations don't belong there (per WP:INFOBOX, and MOS:INFOBOX). So I removed the here and replaced them with the Ottoman Archival data numbers and a single note mentioning the western estimates.

• end of byzantine empire:<ref name="ealoipolis">{{cite book|author1-first=Georgios|author1-last=Frantzes|author2-first=Ioannis (Ioannes) A.|author2-last=Melisseidis (Melisseides)|author3-first=Pulcheria|author3-last=Zavolea-Melissidi|title=Εάλω η ΠόλιςΤ•ο χρονικό της άλωσης της Κωνσταντινούπολης: Συνοπτική ιστορία των γεγονότων στην Κωνσταντινούπολη κατά την περίοδο 1440 – 1453|trans-title=The City has Fallen: Chronicle of the Fall of Constantinople: Concise History of Events in Constantinople in the Period 1440–1453|language=el|edition=5|publisher=Vergina Asimakopouli Bros.|publication-place=Athens|publication-date=2004|isbn=9607171918}}</ref>

• Belligerents:{{efn|More specifically, the [[Byzantine Empire under the Palaiologos dynasty]]}}, {{efn|The Venetians decided to make a peace treaty with the Ottomans in September 1451, because they were on good terms already with the Ottomans and they did not want to ruin a relationship. They also did not want the Ottomans to interfere with their trade in the Black Sea and Mediterranean. The Venetians' efforts mainly included giving Constantine XI ships and a total of 800 soldiers in February 1453. The Venetians also promised that a larger fleet would arrive to save Constantine, this fleet would be full of ammunition, fresh soldiers and supplies. This fleet arrived too late.}}, {{efn|The Kingdom of Sicily mainly donated ships and a few soldiers, it was not official however, and was done by several Cardinals.}}, <ref name="1453istanfatkar">{{cite web|author=Tekbaşina|website=Milliyet blog|title=1453’de İstanbul'u Fatih’e karşı savunan Osmanlı Şehzadesi kim?|trans-title=Who Were the Ottoman Princes Defending Istanbul against the Conqueror in 1453?|language=tr|url=http://blog.milliyet.com.tr/1453-de-istanbul-u-fatih-e-karsi-savunan-osmanli-sehzadesi-kim-/Blog/?BlogNo=344096|accessdate=2016-02-13}}</ref>

• Commanders: {{efn|The Genoese captain Giovanni Giustiniani Longo was wounded in battle, but managed to escape, he died during the early days of June 1453.<ref name="pertusicadvol1">{{cite book |editor-first=Agostino|editor-last=Pertusi | year = 1976 | title = La Caduta di Costantinopoli, I: Le testimonianze dei contemporanei scrittori greci e latini |trans-title=The Fall of Constantinople, I: The Testimony of the Contemporary Greek and Latin Writers |volume=I|publisher = Fondazione Lorenzo Valla | location = Verona | language = it}}</ref>{{page needed|date=June 2017}}}} * {{flagicon|Ottoman Empire}} [[Orhan Çelebi]]{{Executed}}<ref name="nicollastcenbyz">{{cite book|author-first=Donald M.|author-last=Nicol|title=The Last Centuries of Byzantium, 1261–1453|publisher=Cambridge University Press|publication-place=Cambridge|edition=2nd|publication-date=1993}}</ref>{{rp|418–420}}

• Byzantine land forces: <ref name="runcimanfall">{{cite book |last=Runciman |first=Steven |authorlink=Steven Runciman |title=The Fall of Constantinople, 1453 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |location=Cambridge|year=1965|edition=Canto|isbn=9780521398329}}</ref>{{rp|85}}<wbr /><ref name="natgeosevery">{{cite magazine|author-first=Merle|author-last=Severy|title=Byzantine Empire|magazine=National Geographic|volume=164|issue=6|publication-date=December 1983}}</ref>{{rp|755}}<wbr /><ref name="globalchroncon">{{cite book|author-first=Spencer C.|author-last=Tucker|title=A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East|publisher=ABL-CLIO|publication-date=2009}}</ref>{{rp|343}}<wbr /><ref name="natgeosevery"/>{{rp|755}}<ref name="ospreybyzarm287">{{cite book|author-first=Ian|author-last=Heath|title=Byzantine Armies AD 1118–1461 (Men-at-Arms)|series=287|publisher=Osprey Publishers|publication-place=Oxford|publication-date=1995|isbn=1855323478}}</ref>{{rp|46}}<wbr /><ref name="bartusisarmssoc">{{cite book|title=The Late Byzantine Army: Arms and Society, 1204–1453|author-first= Mark C.|author-last=Bartusis|publisher=University of Pennsylvania Press|publication-place=Philadelphia|publication-date=1997}}</ref>{{page needed|date=June 2017}}-12,000,<wbr /><ref name="about1">{{cite web|url=http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars14011600/p/Byzantine-Ottoman-Wars-Fall-Of-Constantinople.htm#|title=Fall of Constantinople, 1453 – Byzantine-Ottoman Wars|author=Kennedy Hickman|work=About.com Education|accessdate=2016-02-13}}</ref> * 600 Ottoman defectors<ref name="osmanaras600askeri">{{cite web|author=<!--Staff writers, no byline-->|website=Osmanlı Arauştırmalarlı|title=İstanbul'un fethinde 600 Türk askeri, Fatih'e karşı savaştı|trans-title=In the Conquest of Istanbul 600 Turkish Military Fought Against the Conqueror|language=tr|url=http://www.os-ar.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=24133}}</ref>

• Byzantine naval forces: <ref name="nicolleendbyz">{{cite book|title=Constantinople 1453: The End of Byzantium (Campaign)|series=78|author-first=David|author-last=Nicolle|author-link=David Nicolle|publisher=Osprey Publishing|publication-place=Oxford|publication-date=2000|isbn=1-84176-091-9}}</ref>{{rp|45}}{{efn|By nationality, there were 5,000 Greeks and 2,000 foreigners, mostly of Genoese and Venetian origin.<ref name="hatzfallhec">{{cite web|author-first=Dionysios|author-last=Hatzopoulos|title=Fall of Constantinople, 1453|publisher=Hellenic Electronic Center|url=http://www.greece.org/romiosini/fall.html}}</ref>}}

• Byzantine Casualties: <ref name="nicolleendbyz"/>{{rp|37–8}}, <ref name="legionii">{{cite web|url=http://burnpit.legion.org/2014/05/part-ii-fall-constantinople|title=Part II: Fall of Constantinople|work=The American Legion's Burnpit}}</ref><ref name="Crowley2009">{{cite book|author=Roger Crowley|title=Constantinople: The Last Great Siege, 1453|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ftOp1cR7VK8C&pg=PT226|date=6 August 2009|publisher=Faber & Faber|isbn=978-0-571-25079-0|pages=226|quote=The vast majority of the ordinary citizens - about 30,000 - were marched off to the slave markets of Edirne, Bursa and Ankara. We know the fates of a few of these deportees because they were important people who were subsequently ransomed back into freedom. Among these was Matthew Camariotes, whose ...}}</ref>

• Ottoman Land Forces: <ref name="kaufmanncastles">{{cite book|author1-first=J. E.|author1-last=Kaufmann|author2-first=Hanna W.|author2-last=Kaufmann|title=The Medieval Fortress: Castles, Forts, and Walled Cities of the Middle Agess|publisher=Da Capo Press|publication-place=Boston, Massachusetts|publication-date=2004|isbn=0-306-81358-0}}</ref>{{rp|101}}<br><wbr /><ref name="defencjourn8">{{cite journal|author-first=Ikram ul-Majeed|author-last=Sehgal|title=Defence Journal|issue=8|publication-date=2005}}</ref>{{rp|49}}<wbr /><ref name="ottoearlmodeur">{{cite book|author-first=Daniel|author-last=Goffman|title=The Ottoman Empire and Early Modern Europe|publisher=Cambridge University Press|publication-date=2002|isbn=0-521-45908-7|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=3uJzjatjTL4C&pg=PA52&dq=%22reveals+not+only+the+self-sacrificing%22&hl=de&sa=X&ei=is6LUfv5C8KNO6KngeAM&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22reveals%20not%20only%20the%20self-sacrificing%22&f=false}}</ref>{{rp|52}}<wbr /><ref name="renandref">{{cite book|author-first=James|author-last=Patrick|title='Renaissance And Reformation|publisher=Marshall Cavendish|publication-date=2007|isbn=0-7614-7650-4|url=https://books.google.com/books?hl=de&id=_JDOVMDi8d4C&dq=%22when+the+ottoman+army+of+about%22&q=%22when+the+ottoman+army+of+about%22#v=snippet&q=%22when%20the%20ottoman%20army%20of%20about%22&f=false}}</ref>{{rp|618}}<wbr /><ref name="nicolleendbyz"/>{{page needed|date=June 2017}}<wbr /><ref name="halilosmanimpklas">{{cite book|author-first=Halil|author-last=İnalcıkt|translator1-first=Norman|translator1-last=Itzkouritz|translator2-first=Colin|translator2-last=Imber|title=Osmanlı İmparatorluğu Klasik Çağ (1300–1600)|trans-title=The Ottoman Empire, The Classical Age, 1300–1600|publisher=Orion|publication-place=London|publication-date=2001}}</ref>{{page needed|date=June 2017}}<br>, {{efn|Figures according to contemporaneous Western/Christian estimates<ref name="runcimanfall"/>{{rp|215}}}}<wbr />100,000<ref name="natgeosevery"/>{{rp|755}}–<wbr />160,000<ref name="sphrantzchron">{{cite book|author-first=George|author-last=Sphrantzes|author-link=George Sphrantzes|title=Οικτρός Γεώργιος ο Φραντζής ο και Πρωτοβεσιαρίτης Γρηγόριος τάχα μοναχός ταύτα έγραψεν υπέρ των καθ' αυτών και τινων μερικών γεγονότων εν τώ της αθλίας ζωής αυτε χρόνω|trans-title=The Pitiful George Frantzes Who was Protovestiaros, Now a Monk, Wrote This for the Βetterment of Others and as Recompense for Some Deeds in His Miserable Life, This Chronicle|language=el}}</ref>{{page needed|date=June 2017}}<ref name="pearsdestructgreekemp">{{cite book|author-first=Edwin|author-last=Pears|title=The Destruction of the Greek Empire|publisher=Longman's, Green & Co.|publication-place=London|publication-date=1903}}</ref>{{page needed|date=June 2017}}–200,000<ref name="pertusicadvol1"/>{{page needed|date=June 2017}} *70 [[cannon]]s<ref name="battle100">{{cite book|author-first=Michael Lee|author-last=Lanning|title= The Battle 100: The Stories Behind History's Most Influential Battles|publisher=Sourcebooks, Inc.|publication-date=2005|isbn=1-4022-2475-3}}</ref>{{rp|139–140}}14 large and 56 small [[caliber]])<ref name="histmideastfreed">{{cite book|author-first=Saul S.|author-last=Friedman|title=A history of the Middle East|publisher=McFarland|publication-date=2006|isbn=0-7864-5134-3}}</ref>{{rp|179}}, {{efn|Figures according to recent estimates and Ottoman archival data. The Ottoman Empire, for demographic reasons, would not have been able to put more than 80,000 men into the field at the time.<ref name="runcimanfall"/>{{rp|215}}}}<br>

• Ottoman Naval Forces: * 70 ships,<ref name="nicolleendbyz"/>{{rp|44}}20 galleys<ref name="milhistottmnuyar">{{cite book |title=A military history of the Ottomans: from Osman to Atatürk |first=Mesut |last=Uyar |first2=Edward J. |last2=Erickson |page=37 |year=2009 |location=Santa Barbara |publisher=Praeger |isbn=978-0-275-98876-0 }}</ref> * 90 – 126 ships <ref name="about1"/>

• Ottoman Casualties: <ref name="legionii"/><ref name="nicollastcenbyz"/>{{page needed|date=June 2017}}

These sources belong in the body of the article. If one of them isn't, please restore it there, not to the infobox. Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 01:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Ending of Strength section

The Strength section ends with the sentence "At this time cannons were being made." This needs a change, but I cannot make out the purpose of this sentence in that context.—VAN-ST (talk) 18:35, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Apparently a remnant from an out-of-place insertion; about to remove it.—VAN-ST (talk) 22:25, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Entitled?

The "Plundering phase" section opens with "Mehmed II had promised to his soldiers three days to plunder the city, to which they were entitled." This seems unclear, so I substituted "Mehmed II gave his soldiers three days to plunder the city, as he had promised them."

I can't read the ref, but even if the ref says they were entitled, that's a matter of opinion I guess. I would think that "...to which they were thus entitled" or "...to which they were by custom entitled" is more what we're wanting to say here? (I hope it's not "...to which they were entitled by natural right".) Not sure, so I made the change even tho I can't read the ref, being confident that that's what was meant. Herostratus (talk) 19:10, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

The Megali Idea passage is misleading

It should be noted that the war was fought in anatolia, and Greece was never promised the city of Constantinople in the treaty of sevres, the Greeks had drawn up a plan to capture the city after their defeat in the asian minor but there was never an attempt to occupy the city during that war, so the passage is a bit misleading.