Talk:Criticism of Swaminarayan sect

Verifiability

In verifying the statements in this article, could you please list the page number referenced for this sentence, “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system”? I was looking in the chapter and couldn’t seem to find it. Moksha88 (talk) 06:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Moksha88 click on the link, you’ll be landed on the page which states this.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:56, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Page numbers are missing for the citations from Kirin Narayan's book and a reference is needed for the claim "Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world. Apollo1203 (talk) 13:03, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: Kirin Narayan source still needs page numbers. If you could tell me the chapter name, or page range, I can deliver you a PDF of chapter from Paywall database, so that you can add page numbers. Or you can use an online copy on Google books. --Gazal world (talk) 20:36, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@Gazal world: Let me give some time. When I opened this book in the Google book then page numbers were not visible and others pages were not in preview. What we have to do is searching by words. Regards,— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 02:28, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Contradictory Claims

As I was verifying the source, Chapter 6 (Sahajanand Swami's Approach to Caste), in the same reference used to cite “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system,” contains many statements that refute that Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system. For example: "[Sahajanand Swami's] principles of atma and Paramatama undergirded Sahajanand Swami's rejection of caste discrimination and distinction" (page 125). This is contradictory to what is being stated in this article. Apollo1203 (talk) 13:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I have added the page number for the quote cited in the article. As I have used the Oxford Scholarship Online copy, I have changed the URL from Google book to Oxford Scholarship, which is behind the paywall database. If you want to refer the chapter, feel free to ask me, I will deliver you a PDF of the chapter through mail. Thanks. --Gazal world (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Introduction Verifiability

Removed the sentence ‘situation of women in the Swaminarayan sect’ due to lack of source and no mention in the body of the article. This violates policy WP:VERIFIABILITY.Treehugger8891 (talk) 01:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I have reinstated it as Kajal Oza Vaidhya had recently took a dig at Nilkanth varni for situation of women.-- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 04:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Dayanand Saraswati's opinion: [WP:FRINGE], [WP:UNDUE]?

@Harshil169: I was able to find Kirin Narayan's book and realize your excerpts differed from what was in the text. I therefore edited it in accordance with WP:NOR, specifically WP:STICKTOSOURCE. In reviewing the actual context from which this assertion is cited, could you please clarify why including his opinion is not WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE based on the following, "In the Satyarth Prakash, first issued in 1875, Dayananda synthesized the views that he had delivered orally in lectures through north India. Sure enough, in this book I found the story that Swamiji had told, though in a very different form. The story appears in chapter 11, "A Refutation and Advocation of Indian Religions," which presents an unabashedly biased history of various sects within Hinduism. There are spirited exposes of the supposed logical absurdity in the mythology surrounding various deities; there are tirades against Gurus and sarcastic descriptions of the average ascetic's conduct. Many parts of the book are in dialogue form. When Swami Dayananda is asked about the Swami Narayan sect, he launches into a description of the founder's wiles." (141)? Thank you Moksha88 (talk) 02:33, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Moksha88: We’re not here to check who bashed someone and who wrote biased history. We’re here to write it down what author or other person said about sect. It’s not our duty to check their bias. I wrote Wikipedia article in disappointing and Neutral tone but I can’t expect authors outside Wikipedia to be Neutral. If they’re then we wouldn’t have opinions at all. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 04:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Let me clarify the edits I made yesterday. Looking at page 143, there is no mention of a year of either when he made these statements nor when the Swaminarayan sect was established on this page. The closest thing I can find to the text is this statement, "In his view, it was a historical fact that Sahajananda decked himself out as Narayan to gain disciples," which is what I think you mean to say by including this quote, "It is historical fact that Sahajananda Swami presented himself as God to increase the number of disciples in the sect."

Is this right? If so, by adding words that aren't in the source, it's original research [WP:NOR, specifically WP:STICKTOSOURCE]. Therefore the only thing I could conclude from page 143 is the edit I made yesterday, "Hindu reformer Dayananda Saraswati questioned the acceptance of Sahajanand Swami." We can ask @Gazal world: to verify if you feel I'm incorrect. Otherwise, please cite other pages and/or sources from which you can draw other information if you wish to develop this opinion.

If you can't develop the notability and relevance of his opinion, his opinion is WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE and should be removed altogether. Just because a criticism appears in one secondary source doesn't make it notable, especially when it appears his views may have perceived extreme from the quote I initially referenced in this same book. Moksha88 (talk) 02:04, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

@Moksha88: Wikipedia is for construction, not for destruction. If you have opinion then add it but just don't remove the lines and made it blank. Cooperate and make lines and add content in this article. Also, Sahjananda established sect in 1800 while Dayananda criticised the sect (or cult, in his opinion) in 1860s. Just to add chronological details about both is not WP:OR, this was just to add that Sahajananda was not contemporary but he established sect very much before. I am going to add several lines from Satyarth Prakash too. That disputed line is literally copied from this Gujarati article and have been translated. Now, if you have book and found the actual sentence which is different then we can add it as it is. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 02:36, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Sarcastic dig and criticism

@Harshil169:, how sarcastic dig by Morari Bapu qualify as serious criticism of Swaminarayan sect? Criticism is a scholarly study of a subject. Sarcastic dig is hardly qualify as criticism. -Nizil (talk) 05:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Nizil Shah still it was criticism as the central figure of the sect was directly criticised and attacked. Also, in criticism of Islam, there’s mention of such jibes and one sarcastic book namely ‘Rangeela Rasool’.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 05:39, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Also, we should not add Kaajal Oza Vaidya in reference. She is not a scholar, but a popular columnist and novelist. Her works isn't mentioned as 'significant work' in any 'reference works' or in any books of 'history of literature'. --Gazal world (talk) 05:42, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169:, Attack is not criticism. Did he criticised any particular aspect of sect or philosophy? At most, I can see that he criticised the use of Nilkanth title. Btw I can not find Rangeela Rasool in Islam or Criticism of Islam.-Nizil (talk) 05:46, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Nizil Shah:, ohh I found it here. Now, it’s obvious that criticism of Islam and Muhammad are different and so much in detailed and hence different. Here, I’ve added in this section to avoid making new article on Criticisms of Sahjanand as an individual. Sahjanand is the central figure of Swaminarayan and hence, I’ve added it here. Also, @Gazal world: the page I’ve cited here also has commentaries from journalist Katherine Zoepf and Criticism of Islam also includes criticisms from several columnists and journalists. Kajal Oza Vaidhya showed her opinion and it will be not wrong to include it here if we follow same pattern as Wikipedia articles have for criticism of religion.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:23, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh, Katherine Zoepf ! Atleast, she is an author of several 'scholarly' or 'historical' works. And Kajal Oza Vaidya ? Hope, you get the point. --Gazal world (talk) 06:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169:, Morari Bapu has not criticised Sahajanand. He took a dig at the use of Nilakanth title. Two are different things. And mocking the use of title is hardly a criticism of the sect.-Nizil (talk) 06:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Nizil Shah: In the same way, Dayananda Saraswati had also took a dig at Sahjanand. As he objected Sahjanand as presenting himself as Vishnu. Then whole article becomes reluctant here. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:38, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Gazal world: I got your point but still Wikipedia articles have opinions from authors and columnists who didn’t produce any scholary work yet. They are in even articles of criticism of religion. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:41, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: You missed the point. Dayanand had criticised Sahajanad and Morari Bapu has not criticised Sahajanand. He took a dig at the use of Nilakanth title. Is this any kind of criticism of the sect? [Note: I think you want to say "redundant" in previous comment but instead wrote "reluctant". I get it.] -Nizil (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I got your point. But still it’s one type of objection. See the lead section of this article. You’ll find the criticism over use of word Prophet for Muhammad. Firstly, I’ve read all the articles related to criticism of religions and then I had created this one in the lines of it. Morari Bapu objected use of title and he had his own points. Devotees of sect got triggered which created a big controversy in Gujarat. So, in my opinion, this deserves a place. Obviously, I’ll improve it. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 06:57, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: Even if Morari Bapu objected use of the title, what was his point? What of his criticism? Dig/mocking is not a serious criticism. The controversy is not important.-Nizil (talk) 07:53, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Nizil Shah, His point was title Nilkanth is for his sect or lord, not for some other sect as they used in 19th century. This is same as Jews criticise the prophecy and use of term prophet for Muhammad whose time was 7th century and they have an old faith. Same for Christianity and their obligation of use of term 'prophet' for Muhammad. That's the reason why it took place. If you think this is inappropriate then you can refer articles of criticism of another religion. And still not convinced then let's seek third opinion of person or removing those lines from paragraph. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 02:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Request Exact Quotes - Gujarati and Hindi

Harshil169 Please provide the exact quotes and translations used from the 2 Gujarati sources used and 1 Hindi source used on this page. Apollo1203 (talk) 02:52, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

• User:Harshil169, the user was trying to ping you. Drmies (talk) 03:04, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Apollo1203 This demand is pathetic. I can't provide translations of three articles on the Wikipedia. Just use Google translate and do so. I didn't use any type of the quote or comment from those articles. Google translation is there, use it.

Gandhi on Swaminarayan Sampraday

The section dedicated to Gandhi's criticism of the Swaminarayan sect has been removed for the following reasons:
1. The text is in violation of WP:RP, as the text is purely from a primary source. Additionally, it violates WP:NPOV as wording is biased as the source itself seems biased.
2. We can also turn to the Swaminarayan page. Here it clearly states an alternative view of Gandhi's: "the work accomplished by Swaminarayan in Gujarat could not and would never have been achieved by the law.” (https://www.baps.org/About-BAPS/TheFounder%E2%80%93BhagwanSwaminarayan/IntheirEyes%E2%80%A6.aspx). Scholars note close parallels between Gandhi's work and Swaminarayan's work related to non-violence, truth-telling, hygiene, temperance, and the uplift of masses. (Brady Williams, Raymond (2001). An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism. Cambridge University Press. p. 173. ISBN 9780521654227.) Commenting on Gandhi's social work, N.A. Toothi "most of his thought, activities and even methods of most of the institutions which he has been building up and serving, have the flavor of Swaminarayanism, more than that of any other sect of Hindu Dharma." He however did not feel that Swaminarayan's values aligned perfectly with his interpretation of Vaishnavism. (Takashi Shinoda (2002). The other Gujarat. Popular Prakashan. p. 9. ISBN 978-81-7154-874-3. Retrieved 27 June 2009) and (Hardiman, David (1988). "Class Base of Swaminarayan Sect". Economic and Political Weekly. 23 (37): 1907–1912. JSTOR 4379024).
If anyone feels against this, please discuss and we can come to a consensus on the topic.
Apollo1203 (talk) 03:13, 3 October 2019 (UTC)