Talk:CESNUR

"Apologist journal" critique

We include a critique from Ortega accusing CESNUR of being an 'apologist journal'. It was removed as SPS, which it is. I restored it because: 1) it verifies only a quote from the source and 2) this "CESNUR as 'apologist'/nrm-friendly" critique is found in other RSes. Additionally, Ortega is an "established expert" whose NRM-related work has been widely published, per past RS noticeboard discussion.[1]. Feoffer (talk) 19:53, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Feoffer, I hope you don't take this the wrong way but you're operating under the same misunderstanding of WP:RS as you were in the discussion above. This relates specifically to point #2 in your comment. Just because Source A (in this case, a self-published blogger) echoes a sentiment in Source B (a reliable source) does not mean that Source A is a reliable source. It's also tautological to say that we should use self-published blog articles as sources because they "verify a quote from the source." The source is, still, a self-published blog. The fact that Ortega has published in the past doesn't make his blog a reliable source. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 13:05, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Replaced with Introvigne source. Feoffer (talk) 01:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

About the CESNUR conference of 1997 in Amsterdam and New Acropolis

The article mentions Dutch criticism of CESNUR because in the program of the CESNUR conference of 1997 in Amsterdam one speaker, Maria Dolores Fernandez-Figares, was listed on New Acropolis who was discovered by investigative journalists to be a member of New Acropolis. I confess I never read the article mentioning the critiques of scholar Richard Singelenberg at https://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/een-sektencongres-kan-nooit-rustig-zijn~b00c8ac6/. Now I did and found somethingh I, and presumably other editors, were not aware of: that once the membership of the lady in New Acropolis was disclosed, her participation in the conference was cancelled ("inmiddels afgeblazen"). I believe this is not an irrelevant detailAidayoung (talk) 09:16, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Done. Feoffer (talk) 01:01, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

James R. Lewis

Lewis is a well-known scholar but was never “CESNUR-affiliated” according both to CESNUR’s Web sites and his own publications. In his book “Falun Gong: Spiritual Warfare and Martyrdom” (Cambridge University Press 2018) Lewis mentions his own career. It does not mention CESNUR but it makes it clear that his is a different approach. For example, while CESNUR has always been a vocal critic of China, particularly on the Falun Gong issue, Lewis states that it has a long cooperation with Chinese authorities in fighting Falun Gong. Aidayoung (talk) 09:01, 1 November 2019 (UTC) Lewis has never published in The Journal of CESNUR, not in any book published by CESNUR. CESNUR’s Web site reports on CESNUR conferences but that doesn’t make Lewis a “CESNUR-published author”.Aidayoung (talk) 12:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Per a source you added, CESNUR is "the largest international association of scholars specializing in the study of new religious movements". Yet simultaneously, you argue Lewis should not be construed as a member of this very same association? It seems improbable that this group's membership is so expansive in one context yet so narrow in another.

Lewis presents papers at CESNUR's conferences and is published on CESNUR's website, but you argue he should not be construed as CESNUR-published??? Such arguments seem quite forced. Nonetheless, 'occasional conference speaker', rather than member, can suffice as a Lewis descriptor for now. Feoffer (talk) 00:57, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Alleged Defense of New Acropolis and Order of the Solar Temple

This very serious accusation comes, without any evidence, from a single sentence in a single source, an article in the Communist French newspaper L’Humanité. The sensational article is mentioned in the section “Criticism” but placing the accusation in the lead too is grossly unfair. The Dutch sources cited did not say that CESNUR “defended” New Acropolis but that a scholar who was a member of New Acropolis figured in the program of the 1997 CESNUR conference. When she was identified as a member of New Acropolis, her participation was cancelled. There is not the slightest evidence that CESNUR defended the Order of the Solar Temple. There are articles on the Solar Temple in CESNUR’s Web site but they are critical. Such a serious accusation, particularly in the lead, should be supported by some evidence. Also, a reader may believe that the article on the Solar Temple quoted mentioned that CESNUR defended it, while it didn’t mention CESNUR at all.Aidayoung (talk) 12:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

This material is well-sourced:

• "defends cults such as Scientology, the Order of the Solar Temple and Heaven's Gate." [2]
• "has distinguished himself in France by his systematic interventions in favor of sects brought to justice: Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Order of the Solar Temple, etc. Moon, AUM sect (responsible for a deadly attack on the Tokyo subway in 1995), all sects can count on the CESNUR." [3]
• "After the second wave of suicide by members of the Sun Temple, in Cheiry, Switzerland, in 1995, Introvigne declared that they had acted on their own initiative" [4]

Feoffer (talk) 21:35, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Not so. CESNUR was accused of having “defended” the Order of the Solar Temple is the articles in L’Humanité and De Groene Amsterdammer, hardly major newspapers, which wrote in the context of a heavily political controversy . The third article, by the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation, does not mention CESNUR at all. As far as I know, the fact that an accusation has been published in a newspaper, the more so a marginal one, is not enough to accept it as a source in Wikipedia. Neither L’Humanité nor De Groene Amsterdamer offered anything as evidence for this very serious accusation. The only main article on the Solar Temple I could find published by CESNUR scholars, in a book edited by Cambridge University Press [5], does not “defend” the Solar Temple in any way and indeed deprecates its criminal activities. You added a quote from “Trouw”, an Evangelical Dutch magazine which intervened in the 1997 Amsterdam conference controversy to the effect that “After the second wave of suicide by members of the Solar Temple, in Cheiry, Switzerland, in 1995, Introvigne declared that they had acted on their own initiative.” Apart from the factual mistake, as the second wave of suicides occurred in France and not in Switzerland, if one reads the Cambridge UP article by Introvigne and Mayer one understands what “acted on their own initiative” means. Introvigne and Mayer dismissed the conspiracy theories that the suicides were really homicides organized by French or other secret services, and declared that those who commits suicide decided to do it for reasons connected with their ideology. Stating that the suicides came from the “own initiative” of those who committed them rather than from some obscure conspiracy is not a “defense” of the Solar Temple. Aidayoung (talk) 11:13, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

CESNUR lobbies for the legitimacy of new religions, and the primary well-sourced criticism against the organization is that it has defended controversial groups. Its understandable that the legitimization of Aum or Solar is embarrassing to CESNUR, but that doesn't mean it didn't occur -- it is documented in multiple reliable sources. Likewise, your argument that Introvigne or Melton cease to be members of CESNUR during their legitimization efforts is similarly found to be without merit -- RSes do connect CESNUR to these groups. Wikipedia policy does not allow us to delete reliably sourced criticism simply because it is embarrassing to the subject: Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. Feoffer (talk) 14:42, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I am willing to consider your argument but can you explain in simple words what evidence do you have that CESNUR defended the Order of the Solar Temple, except that two left-wing journalists said so but did not explain when, how, and where? Aidayoung (talk) 15:34, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

'What sources do you have, aside from the RSes you've already provided"???

Based on the three RSes already included, it's virtually guaranteed that Introvigne did in fact make public statements somewhere doing what he always does -- rejecting the thesis that Solar Temple members were brainwashed by their guru and instead defending the sect as a religion, albeit an extreme one, whose adherents were free people who simply chose death. The Trouw source basically says as much.

But what good would it do me to go through all the trouble of digging up such a source for you? If three reliable sources didn't convince you, a fourth would be dismissed just as easily. "That doesn't count as a defense" you'd say, perhaps. Or maybe you'd attack the source for its biases, just as you currently dismiss the existing sources as Evangelical, leftist, and Communist. If three such radically different sources all reporting on the defense have not convinced you, surely a fourth source wouldn't persuade you.

That's the problem of editing patterns consistent with a conflict of interest -- Wikipedia really benefits from the Assumption of good faith, and as many at ANI have discussed, faith in you is minimal I'm afraid Feoffer (talk) 22:54, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Apart from your usual name-calling, you imply that arguing that someone committed a crime out of his/her own will rather than because of brainwashing amounts to defending both crime and criminal. The entry makes it clear that CESNUR scholars share the (majority) opinion of NRM scholars that brainwashing does not exist. But stating that an evil deed was committed freely rather than under the enterprise of brainwashing is not a defense of that deed - on the contrary, it magnifies the responsibility of the perpetrator. Aidayoung (talk) 13:08, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't necessary disagree with anything you say. It might help you to remember that this article does not say anyone endorsed any crimes, and no one reading the article would see this text and believe the cited scholars are criminals.

But the fact remains: When a CESNUR scholar says "we studied group X and it's a legitimate religion that doesn't use brainwashing", they're met with the valid and well-sourced rebuttal: 'that's what CESNUR _always_ says, even about very very very extreme groups who have done awful things. A doctor who gives a clean bill of health to all his patients, even the visibly sick ones, may be entitled to his opinion, but its of limited utility to the rest of us.' Feoffer (talk) 22:01, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I don’t necessarily disagree either but I believe the position of CESNUR was more precisely stated here, in one of the first issues of their journal: [6]. Some groups are “criminal” even if they are “religious,” not because they use “brainwashing” (most CESNUR scholars believe, rightly or wrongly, that brainwashing does not exist) but because they commit horrible crimes. Aidayoung (talk) 23:54, 23 November 2019 (UTC)