User talk:Fyrael

Yellow Fever Disambiguation

My reasoning for the term "yellow fever" being derogatory is that it specifically contains the term "yellow", which is a racist term used to describe East Asian people since they are perceived to have "yellow skin".

Furthermore, the term "fever" implies a disease. Hence, the term "yellow fever" implies that the person who possesses/expresses yellow fever is diseased or deranged.

A term which contains an explicitly racist term within it, whilst also alluding to an illness, is inherently derogatory. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 07:50, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Compare the term "yellow fever" to this --> "nigger addiction". I have just made up this term now to describe any non-Black person who has a sexual preference for Black people. The term follows the exact same etymological formula as "yellow fever". Do you accept this term, or do you object to it because it contains a racist term within it? In the same way, the term "yellow fever" is unacceptable and should be considered "derogatory" rather than just "slang". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 07:57, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

You've made a bizarre and inaccurate assumption in thinking that I don't consider this phrase derogatory, which my edit summary did not imply at all. I reverted your change because 1) it added inaccurate details about the term and 2) it was not at all aligned with correct style for disambiguation entries. I have now modified the entry to include this word that is of the utmost importance to you, while still following MOS:DABENTRY. And in future you should not try to command other editors to "not challenge" your edits. Discussion is a constant and necessary part of Wikipedia. -- Fyrael (talk) 13:52, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

The word "yellow" when used to describe Asian people is already widely considered to be racist on a level paralleling the words "nigger" or "wog", etc. Due to Asians living in the West (especially the United States) frequently referring to themselves as "yellow", the term's derogatory meaning has somewhat subsided. The same phenomenon has occurred with the words "nigger" and "wog"; many Black Americans refer to their friends as "my nigger" (usually spelt "nigga") and the term "wog" seems to be tolerated by certain Greek Australians; for example, there is a famous Greek Australian YouTube channel called "Superwog" which makes fun of this term.

The term "yellow fever" makes a direct reference to the concept of Asians having yellow skin. This is similar to terms like "Banana", "Egg", "Twinkie", etc. All of these terms are inherently racist, even if only mildly so. The term "Banana" is both equally used with pride and with hatred; Asian Americans who identify more as (White) American tend to embrace the term, whereas Asian Americans who identify more as Asian American tend to use it as a pejorative term for these "assimilated" Asian Americans. Meanwhile, the term "yellow fever" is almost exclusively used as a pejorative. It is very rarely presented as a source of pride.

The term "yellow fever" is not only racist but also sexist. It specifically describes White men who are attracted to Asian women. The frequency of the term being used to describe White women who are attracted to Asian men is extremely low. In fact, the sorts of people who are opposed to the former, known colloquially as "WMAF", are usually completely fine with the latter, known colloquially as "AMWF"; in fact, they even often encourage the latter, since most of the people using this term are, themselves, Asian males. As evidence of this, if you look through the article "Asian fetish", there is absolutely no mention of White women with a preference for Asian men. There is a comment about this in the Talk section of the article, with someone mentioning K-Pop male pop stars, but there is no reference about this in the article. The article talks almost exclusively about White men who sexually predate on Asian women due to their perceived "submissiveness" and them being "petite". There is no mention of the same phenomenon occurring between the opposite genders.

Furthermore, as if the term couldn't have another layer of offensiveness to it, the term "yellow fever" is also offensive to people who actually have the disease "yellow fever". Just like how calling a healthy person a "downy" is offensive to people who actually have down syndrome, saying that a White man who likes Asian women has "yellow fever" is offensive to people who might actually be suffering from the very real disease which is also called "yellow fever" (and I do not think this a coincidence that these two terms share their names). And it's also insulting anyway to insinuate that someone's personal sexual preferences should render them diseased.

The term "yellow fever" has entered the common Asian American (and Australian, as far as I know) lexicon. I believe that most people understand exactly how offensive this term is, but they use it anyway because they have been desensitized to the offensiveness of the term. It's just like how you see young people frequently using the term "Nibba" because they don't have the "N-word pass" which would allow them to say "Nigga" or "Nigger".

I have come up with this term "nigger addiction" to demonstrate the ludicrousness and hypocrisy that this term "yellow fever" should be so widely used and accepted despite being so incredibly offensive.

And when I was saying "don't challenge my edits", that's because the original description was a load of horsesh*t. The term is almost exclusively used to refer to White men who sexually predate on Asian women. It doesn't have anything to do with any other combinations of races or genders. And it's more than just slang; it's vulgar, derogatory, and offensive. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 18:54, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

You're extremely confused. I've just explained that I wasn't debating the "derogatory" part of your description, and in fact left that word in the entry, so why have you just delivered a diatribe about how offensive you find the term, as though I've done the opposite? Maybe you're confused about why I've shortened the description so much, in which case I would point you (again) to MOS:DABENTRY. Descriptions on these pages should only contain as much detail as is helpful for disambiguating between topics, and what I've left there is more than enough to distinguish it from the other topics. Disambiguation pages need not convey the full weight of a term; that's what the article is for. And regardless of what you thought of the description, when you write "don't challenge my edits", the message that sends is "my opinion is absolute and unquestionable", which will get you nowhere constructive. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:25, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

The term doesn't have its own specific article. In that case, this entry should be removed entirely from the Disambiguation article since there is nowhere to redirect to. The article "Asian fetish" is a separate but related article. There are many problems with the Asian fetish article. I have proposed that it be split into two articles. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:40, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

I've seen your proposal and it seems like a decent idea to me, although I'd be surprised if there isn't content on Wiki already for fetishism of Asian culture. Can't say I know where it is though. That said, the article as it stands has quite a bit of information on the concept referred to by the "yellow fever" phrase, so the entry has plenty of merit. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:00, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

The phrase "Yellow fever" is only relevant to the Asian sexual fetish frame of the article, rather than the cultural frame. I'll leave the current version of the disambiguation page as is. If the article does end up being split in half, then I'll relink to the relevant half. By the way, I'm pretty sure there are pages for obsessions with specific countries, such as Japan, China, and France. However, there isn't really an article already in existence which specifically discusses Asian obsession (aka fetishism) as a whole. This is the article, but it mostly talks about sexual fetishism rather than a more innocent obsession with culture. I personally believe that the two concepts of cultural fascination and racist sexual fantasies should not be conflated. Prior to my edits of the Asian fetish article, it seemed to imply that sexual fetishization and cultural fetishization go hand-in-hand, which is simply not the case. For example, if I'm interested in the French language, does that mean I'm also interested in French women? Probably, but not undoubtedly. There are many people who can be interested in or obsessed with foreign cultures without becoming sexual predators. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 20:21, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

And even if I was interested in French women, that still wouldn't necessarily make me a sexual predator. There is no direct correlation between being sexually interested in a particular race (ethnic group) and being a sexual predator. However, the article Asian fetish implies that all White men who are obsessed with Asian women are sexual predators. Furthermore, the article primarily talks about White men fetishizing various Asian ethnic groups. There is no mention of, say, Black men fetishizing Asian women, or White women fetishizing Asian men. I think there might be some mention of White men fetishizing Asian men, though. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 20:25, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Oof

Please forgive ignorance -- digesting the entire WP knowledge base takes time -- but I don't understand what you mean by "If you manage to get this to stick on the Roblox article". What's wrong with the Roblox article, or what do you mean by "stick on" it ? Could perhaps have more concisely referenced just the Memes piece -- reference included in the Roblox piece, but this way it includes far more useful pointers. Took some time to untangle the "Oof" usages of many others; this was an attempt to archive some of that knowledge in a useful way in response to finding nothing relevant on WP. With many thanks for editorial consideration. --Mark — Preceding unsigned comment added by WordSurd (talk • contribs) 17:01, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for coming here to talk, and I appreciate that it takes a long while to get used to the various policies and guidelines on Wikipedia. There's almost no end to them. And in this case, there's an entirely different set of guidelines because Oof is a disambiguation page, not a regular article. You can read all about them at WP:DISAMBIGUATION, but the purpose of such a page is just to help readers quickly find the correct article when they searched for a term that has more than one meaning. So, we do not add content or sources to disambiguation pages; we only add entries with a single link to a wiki article that has the information they want. In this case, that would be the Roblox article. The problem is that currently this meme doesn't appear on that article. You would have to add it to the article, and see if other editors agree that it belongs, since not every meme is notable enough to be worth including on Wikipedia. That's what I mean by the "sticking" part. Just seeing if it doesn't get removed. Let me know if you need more information. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:05, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I just noticed you removed my disambiguation entry for acronym "Out of Facility" which pointed to the article "Out of Office". The disambiguation entry contained the information tying "OOO" with "OOF" and did have the reference, just not to something with initials "OOF". These two acronyms are used interchangeably in the tech industry (especially any region with Microsoft employees). I get that you removed OOF because it doesn't have a "out of facility" article all of its own. Could the OOF disambiguation entry be restored if an "out of facility" redirection to the "out of office" article is created? "OOF mail" is a subculture thing that nonetheless gets poked and ridiculed in tech workplaces with ex-Microsofties, but perhaps it's not so well known that it should have its own full article. I have added a list item for OOF to List_of_business_and_finance_abbreviations#O. Frazierjason (talk) 19:05, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

While it's certainly better if a topic has its own article, the actual minimum requirement according to the disambiguation project is that some mention of the term appear in an article. Now that it's been added to the abbreviations list, that technically counts. Personally, I feel like only encyclopedic topics that could possibly have their own article one day should appear on disambiguation pages, but that's not the consensus. I can add an entry for "out of facility". -- Fyrael (talk) 19:33, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Looks like I'm not the only advocate of adding an "Oof" sound/meme entry here. I have not gotten back to this because the Roblox page is locked, and I have not yet figured out how to propose adding an Oof sound/meme note there (further unlikely accepted if there have been problems with page alteration); I believe that was your requirement for allowing the Oof disambiguation entry, rejecting the references I proposed and which *did* make the connections. There must be a better way than leaving the whole situation wedged by a lock on a different page. -- WordSurd (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

To clarify a few things:

• I did not "reject" any references. References of any quality simply don't belong on disambiguation pages, as is stated on the overview: WP:DABYESNO. Although I would reject the second one, as fan wikis very much do not qualify as reliable sources.
• It is not "my" requirement that the term be mentioned in the linked article. It's a guideline that is very directly stated at MOS:DABRELATED.
• I did not know the Roblox article was locked. I can see how that made my suggestion seem a bit unreasonable, although it's not difficult to request an edit. The official method is detailed at Wikipedia:Edit requests, but even if you make a casual request on the talk page it will get a response.

And yes, multiple people have tried to add this Roblox entry to the disambiguation page, with varying levels of quality. To be frank, the Roblox user base seems to skew quite young and so inappropriate edits to related pages are rather expected (that's why the Roblox page is protected), especially when you combine that topic with a meme. I honestly feel like nobody will care about this "oof" thing in like 3 years, but I'm not super familiar with the game or the meme so I'll leave it up to editors on that page to decide. -- Fyrael (talk) 17:43, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

My apologies; no personal blame intended (grateful for assistance realizing what I'm radiating without thinking); just slow learning how to do things, unfairly blaming the messenger, and short on time to devote. Persistence is because I've been surprised how quickly [so] many people recognize this sound -- which I had neither heard, nor heard-of before -- and how much invested affection has been devoted to a brief burst of audio. While "that was my childhood" has been sad to hear often repeated, it's a fragment of culture that may be around for a while to come. It's also my first vignette of intellectual property law applied to an isolated sound, which will be interesting to watch. Thanks for all your help. -- WordSurd (talk) 18:29, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Ways to improve Eat Your Heart Out (band)

Hello, Fyrael,

Thank you for creating Eat Your Heart Out (band).

I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:

The subject meets WP:BAND criterion #5, but it's not clear that it meets WP:GNG despite that.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|Rosguill}}. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

_signed, Rosguill ^talk 00:54, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Ceres

Thanks for the implicit explanation with a policy reference.

While happy to defer to greater experience, I find your explanation -- especially drawing from the text of MOS:DABPIPE -- somewhat contradictory to the changes you made.

As you expanded to me above (under Oof), Disambiguation pages are handled differently, and I have not read everything there yet, so please forgive subjectiveness and clumsiness, where the policy probably is clear, but it seems unusually verbose (adding information, duplicating fluff now stored in multiple places) to spell out in so many words that one "community" also extends into the adjacent state, and that the other "community" is in a particular county, where the entries are locations, not the communities, but I will digest more how-to, recognizing that I am probably wrong.

I noticed only AFTER posting that there is also a Ceres *Township* in NY, already on the list, which turns out to enclose the Ceres hamlet, though nothing on the page reflects that, so there is probably a better way to include the NY/PA split, and township name, though the hamlet is not the township, and I don't know what township or equivalent is inhabited in PA, and it's not clear that county names help anything -- it's just that one connection goes to a county page; perhaps Ceres, NY (with no entry of its own) should reference Ceres Township, NY, which does have an entry, though it probably also needs expanding.

As for not hiding sources, MOS:DABPIPE seems to specifically say use #REFERENCE(s), rather than pipe(s), when that is the objective, but that is not what you did. The Ceres, NY entry actually goes to Genesee, NY which would by that reasoning seem to call for a reference. The bar seemed succinct, but I will read up on the policy. I followed the example of many other pages in using a pipe to link to the page with the information, while showing what is relevant locally... as Oof is not Roblox, just a topic partially found there... no obfuscation intended... but I have not looked at that page in a while and may remember inaccurately... and maybe common pipe usage is in error. Ceres, OK -- as a small unincorporated place, with only a one-word entry under Noble County (also perhaps deserving of #REFERENCE treatment to not hide that ?) seems unlikely to get its own entry any time soon, though now there is a dangling link that will probably never gain a destination.

Grateful for your articulation; mostly spelling out confusion that I will clarify with reading.

Also trying out signing, so ignore if wrong.

WordSurd (talk) 18:23, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

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Oliver Typewriter

The IP is removing sourced content from a featured article, and has been reverted by others. If you believe content should be removed, it needs to be discussed on the talk page. Эlcobbola _talk 22:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Did you read my edit summary before reverting? The link in the source doesn't lead to anywhere that has information. It is essentially unsourced. -- Fyrael (talk) 22:06, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

And also the edit that I restored didn't remove any content. It changed the wording slightly. -- Fyrael (talk) 22:07, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

December 2019

Hello, I'm Elcobbola. I noticed that you recently removed content from Oliver Typewriter Company without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Эlcobbola _talk 22:06, 5 December 2019 (UTC)