User talk:Keivan.f

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Countesses

What's the idea with all these page moves away from the usual style? See Wikipedia:NCPEER. This is not unecessary disam, in case that's what you think. I've reverted one; is there any reason not to do the rest? Ideally you should do that. Actually what you moved to Elizabeth Trussell, & I reverted should use her married name of de Vere anyway. Johnbod (talk) 03:03, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod: Well, you said it yourself. That is not the usual style. The usual style would be either their maiden name alone, or their married name combined with their title, not a weird mix of the two things. In case of Elizabeth Trussell, the page was at Elizabeth de Vere, Countess of Oxford until it was moved to its current name in 2016 without a discussion. One could argue that Elizabeth Trussell is the common name, and in that case there's no need to add her noble title up after her maiden name, because she only earned it through marriage not by birth right. Keivan.f^Talk 03:10, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

No, that's not the issue - there are 2 x Elizabeth de Vere, Countess of Oxford, if you look at the de Vere category! Elizabeth Trentham, Countess of Oxford is the other. Hence using the maiden name is correct, & needed for disam. But you always add the title. "Common names" don't exist for such people. Elizabeth de Vere, Countess of Oxford needs a disam page. Johnbod (talk) 03:13, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod: We cannot say that common name doesn't exist for them through. One of the examples that I can think of right now is Lady Katherine Grey, who also happened to be a countess. In any case, I moved most of those pages to include their married surnames, and for those that were using their maiden names extensively I omitted the titles, assuming that the maiden name is the common form. I actually looked some of them up on Google. In the case of the two Elizabeth's, there's another way that can be used for disam if there married names are to be used. Elizabeth Somerset, Countess of Worcester (wife of the 2nd Earl) and Elizabeth Somerset, Countess of Worcester (wife of the 4th Earl) are two examples. Keivan.f^Talk 03:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Obviously that is far worse! Is there any precedent for that? I'm afraid you seem to be blundering around making it up as you go along. I notice that at Margery Golding you reverted your own move of 6 months ago. Is that because she married again? You should give explanations for these moves in the box provided. Lady Katherine Grey is a lousy example, as her first marriage was quickly annulled and her second marriage was secret & got her into big trouble. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod: My initial move on Margery Golding had to be reverted because it was in contrast with Wikipedia:NCPEER, something that unfortunately I hadn't realized a few months ago. And what matters I guess, is what the sources say. Another example would be Mary Dudley, who was a noblewoman too; daughter of a duke actually. Her married name was Mary Sidney, yet the page is titled after her maiden name because that's what the common name is. Oh, and let's not forget Lady Jane Grey, the Nine Days' Queen, who was titled Lady Jane Dudley after marriage, but obviously the latter is not her common name. The point is, using maiden names for married noble women has precedent. Keivan.f^Talk 03:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm extremely dubious about that - obviously when she married she went from being Mary Dudley to being Mary, Countess of Pembroke or just "the Countess of Pembroke". The latter two are useless for disam of course but will easily be the actual common name in the great majority of such cases. Noblewomen only recently got the choice of continuing to use their maiden name professionally etc, like Elizabeth Thompson - perhaps the first, born 1846. But actually she is probably better known as "Lady Butler", or was till feminism, and the naming is partly to avoid disam with all the other Lady Butlers. And she was famous before she married. Wikipedia:NCPEER is rightly clear that the (noble) title should usually be included in the article title. It's pointless citing Lady Jane Grey to justify Margery Golding or Elizabeth Trussell. Johnbod (talk) 03:41, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod: Wikipedia:NCPEER instructs users to include titles after names, but not to make a mix out of the individual's maiden and married names. In the case of Elizabeth, a disam is required, so that could be justifiable, but I cannot say the same thing about Margery Golding. If it were to include the title, then the surname would need to change as well. And honestly I'm not against using their married surnames, especially for the ones that were born before the rise of feminism. It's just that the whole thing is very inconsistent and messed up, so I tried my best to keep the balance between what would be the appropriate form of address as well as the common name. Yet, if you believe that the surname would not make that much of a difference, then I guess we can move them using the format "'Name' 'Married Surname', Countess of 'X'". After all, a similar format has been used for the pages on duchesses and they are in fact very consistent, unlike the articles we have about countesses. Keivan.f^Talk 03:52, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:NCPEER doesn't actually say not to, & it seems the best solution to me. Very likely these issues - 2 Elizabeth de Vere, Countess of Oxfords and 2 marriages with different titles - have come up before, although they don't seem mentioned in the MOS. At this point we should perhaps ask at the nobs project, with a link to this, in case there has been a consensus. If not, we could try to get one, & add to the policy. Johnbod (talk) 03:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod: Well, I guess it's better to seek clarification and ask for consensus. Feel free to start a discussion though. Unfortunately I have a lot to study for my upcoming exams, but I'll try to participate as much as I can. :) Keivan.f^Talk 04:00, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Ok, not today though - I'll ping you when I do. Johnbod (talk) 04:02, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Clarification

Hi, hope you are fine, I had created the article Alina Boz in June, however as you know she was born in Russia, so I am here to ask that do we need add her Russian name in the article? Thank you. Tahaaleem ^Talk 12:41, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

​ Hi. Hope you have had a good week so far. Regarding your question, no, I don't think we need to do that. As an example, we have numerous American people who were born outside the US or had non-American parents but we identify them as American, and thus the spelling of their name in the country that they were born in is not included. Victoria Fyodorova is an example that I can think of. Also, Alina Boz doesn't appear to have strong ties to Russia despite being half Russian. For instance, she hasn't appeared in any Russian productions. Alternatively, you can just change the phrase "Turkish actress" to "Turkish-Russian actress" in the first sentence to emphasize on her Russian ancestry, just like Meryem Uzerli and Selma Ergeç, who are labeled as "Turkish-German" because their mothers are German women. Keivan.f^Talk 06:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year

Tahaaleem ^Talk— is wishing you a Happy New Year! It's the last day of 2020 and tomorrow will be 2021. Hope the coming year brings pleasures for you. Have a prosperous, enjoyable and a productive 2021. This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

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Tahaaleem ^Talk 13:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Tahaaleem: Happy New Year to you too. Hope all the best for you in the coming year. Keivan.f^Talk 07:33, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks :). Tahaaleem ^Talk 08:00, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Mikail

Hi, I've seen that you moved Mikail of Kınık tribe to Mikail (son of Seljuk) without any discussion. Well that's possible. But what is your rationale? Cheers and happy new year. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

@Nedim Ardoğa: Hi and happy new year. I moved the page because no previous discussion exsited and thus it was a noncontroversial move. Based on the naming rules and per WP:TITLECON, that title was not appropriate. Individuals, especially those born to royalty and nobility, are sorted by their titles or disambiguated using their parents or spouses' names. Examples include Hatice Sultan (daughter of Selim I) (instead of Hatice of the Ottoman dynasty) and Rusudan (daughter of Demetrius I of Georgia) (instead of Rusudan of the Bagrationi dynasty). Also, Mikail ibn Seljuk would have been inappropriate as well, since that's technically an Arabic term. Keivan.f^Talk 18:43, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

About article

Hi, I am planning to make a article on Kübra Süzgün, but she is a child actress and is only 11 years old, but she was appeared in like five TV series and 4 movies, do you think it would be applicable to make a article on her, although she is still a child actress? Thank you. Tahaaleem ^Talk 09:47, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

@Tahaaleem: Hi. As long as you can find reliable sources it's fine. An example that I can think of is Beren Gökyıldız, the article for whom was created by me in January 2019. Keivan.f^Talk 10:21, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, I will find adequate sources and create the article. Thank you. Tahaaleem ^Talk 10:42, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Re-open of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ozan Boz (2nd nomination)

Hello Keivan.f, just wanted to reach out and kindly ask you to review your vote. Discussion is re-opened [[1]], and I’ve added a few objections to the Nominator’s arguments. Please consider whether the article satisfies the guideline WP:MUSICBIO as it was written. Thanks.