Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles

Saleen and Tata Harrier

Good morning, I would like to point out that I have corrected the Saleen and Saleen S1 entry by adding the sources and the acquisition of the company by the Chinese Jiangsu Secco Tecnology, if someone can correct any errors in the notes and grammar. And Saleen is a public company? Many source cite is a private and chinese!

also in Tata Harrier there are many Indian news sites and articles and I would like to know if they are suitable for an encyclopedia, many seem superfluous (for example the many competing cars that I eliminated). thanks and good job

sorry but in Tata Motors there is the "Notable Vehicle" section which seems useless and repetitive as already mentioned in the entry and the specific entries are already present.

Proposed merge of Dongfeng Fengdu MX5 in Aeolus AX7

The Dongfeng Fengdu MX5 and first generation of Aeolus AX7 are same car! The Fengdu have only a different front and rear bumper but the car are the same and was produced only for 1 year! No other difference

GM platform disambiguations

GM A platform (1936) was recently moved to GM A platform (1925) with the claim "further research shows the platform was first introduced in 1925, when the B and C platforms were also introduced" (but no content was added to the article to that effect nor was any source provided).

But that brings me to a thought I've had for a while: why are these articles titled this way? Until 2013 they were all disambiguated with "FWD" or "RWD" in parentheses. This was changed with a claim of such disambiguation being "nonstandard" but I found no discussion of the sort. Now is as good a time as any to have that discussion. I believe the original nomenclature should be restored - "FWD" and "RWD" are hardly uncommon in general automotive journalism and unlikely to be confusing to the average reader. Having the year there instead may even be more confusing, on account of the fact that GM's platform lettering is much more closely associated with 1960s and newer cars and something like "1925" or "1936" is probably unexpected by most readers. --Sable232 (talk) 23:32, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Platform: "a raised level surface on which people or things can stand"

I'm just startled by this pronouncement leading off the article you refer to: "The GM A platform (1925) (commonly called A-body) ". I don't see how a pressed steel chassis is a platform. And —if someone wants to call it a platform for whatever reason— then why call it a body? !!! Eventually, I believe, the US auto industry did develop something they chose to call unitary construction (invented in Madison Avenue?) where they welded lots of things together (into a "unit") but I am unconvinced they were doing anything like this in 1925. More likely they were trying to remove a lot of the wood from their Fords and beginning to talk of all-steel Bodies? Maybe I'm quite wrong? Eddaido (talk) 00:33, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

See car platform, and the "__-body" is a colloquialism in common usage by enthusiasts. But in any case, this is completely off-topic to the naming discussion. --Sable232 (talk) 21:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I think using years as a disambiguator for something which existed for so long is quite confusing. Given that the main change is the configuration, I would agree with changing them back to (FWD) and (RWD). A7V2 (talk) 01:35, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I second restoring these titles.  Mr.choppers | ✎  16:32, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I am also in favor of restoring these titles, not to mention expanding the "GM" as I've raised here.  – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 23:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Stepho-wrs: I cannot help viewing the introduction of the word PLATFORM in the name of this article as absurd. It simply confuses the issue to please a particular editor. Hard on everyone else ! Eddaido (talk) 02:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

The articles' titles don't necessarily have to be pleasing to anybody – I believe that titles should precisely define what their articles are about – even if that means that they appear like an internal type designation rather than a model name. Recently, we had a similar discussion on the German language version of Wikipedia on whether or not the Mercedes-Benz W 100 page should be moved to Mercedes-Benz 600. In the GM-platform case (and I also believe that the word platform should be used), characterising FWD and RWD seems more reasonable to me than using years. That is, because in the American automotive industry, model years are used, whereas in other countries the "year of manufacture" system is used instead. Years can be confusing to those who don't know the difference. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 07:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

About the word "platform" only. Of my four adult family members and two friends, only I knew what the term "platform" meant about autos. I think this is another case where editors think that field specialty terms are more commonly used than they are.

This and the following section seem related, MPV above too, this section is active. ReTeam (talk) 12:00, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

"Platform" is accepted nomenclature for describing the common underpinnings of various automobiles, it doesn't refer to a physical platform any more than it does when the word is used to describe software. A quick internet search will return millions of results, just read this one for instance. If I was to ask my family members what a pushrod was none would have a clue either, but that doesn't mean we don't use the word "pushrod" as there is nothing else adequate to describe it.  Mr.choppers | ✎  14:11, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

GM "Platforms"

Why is a 1925 pressed steel chassis being called a platform when it is obviously no such thing? Eddaido (talk) 21:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

A platform, as used in the industry now, is a chassis system, basically a floorpan (or family of floorpans), some suspensions, somewhat interchangeable, and a buncheroo of drivetrain options. Enjoy. Greglocock (talk) 10:26, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, so why's it being used for a 1925 attempt to do a part of the same job? Eddaido (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a case where we are better off using the nomenclature of the time vs trying to force modern terms onto the older designations. Also, in terms of "platform" we should keep in mind that a platform could be a common chassis or it could be a common set of components/family of components. A truck with a short and long wheel base clearly is a different chassis but could still be part of a common platform. Springee (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

perhaps a more pragmatic modern definition is that a platform is a thing that goes down the same assembly line. That is, of course, bollocks in reality. We used run all sorts down the line. Greglocock (talk) 13:25, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Don't get too hung up on a single definition of the word. We talk about computer platforms (Windows, Android, the Web), political platforms and car platforms. Platform just means something that can be built on to make the final product. See https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/platform  Stepho  talk  23:15, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Seconded. "Car platform" is a commonly used concept.  Mr.choppers | ✎  16:32, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Then we are agreed:

NOT a platform

A Platform

Eddaido (talk) 03:26, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't in that case since both of those are rather similar. They are a rolling chassis without body. The Plymouth looks somewhat similar to a modern pickup chassis which is a foundation for a range of trucks and SUVs. If a MFR called it a "body" or a "platform" I generally think we should use their terms (GM W-body cars for example). However, if we want to use "platform" as a universal term for vehicles that share a common design per their mfrs then I'm also OK with that. We shouldn't assume that "platform" implies something about how the vehicle is manufactured. Springee (talk) 04:11, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I see, but isn't your opinion a highly personal view? I strongly disagree with it - which is why I brought the matter up here. Cheers, Eddaido (talk) 05:28, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is. I mean look at the Android software platform. That looks nothing like the pictures you have posted but it's still considered a platform. If we move back to the automotive world, look at the Ford Panther platform. Here is a picture of the chassis [[1]] which looks very similar to the chassis shown above. Springee (talk) 13:34, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

But you make my Very Point ! The marvellous elasticity in your use of words to mean whatever you'd like them to mean at that particular moment. Doesn't it have to stop somewhere? I just put into the Google search box "biden's platform" and guess what, WP sprang instantly with the answer Political positions of Joe Biden. At some stage you have to decide what a word means within its context. You simply can't use it for vehicles the way you have begun to try to. Eddaido (talk) 05:49, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

""Car platform" is a commonly used concept" has been posted above @Mr.choppers:. Used by who? Everyone on this page knows the idea, of course, but how many common readers? (From a US POV here). Do you think most people think of their cars as "platforms"?

In the US the term "platform" wasn't common before the "world cars" (I don't know about Europe). Before that they were bodies. This Motor Trend's 1977 New Car Issue used (letter)-body except for X-car. Now we are using the term for a 1925 Chevy retroactively (ex-post facto?), long before the term was used at all?

@Springee: posted: "I think this is a case where we are better off using the nomenclature of the time vs trying to force modern terms onto the older designations". I agree. Sources from the time aren't going to use "platform". It is not authentic(?) to the time.

I think "platform" screams "industry jargon". Screams. Maybe that's not bad for today. But going back and using it in 1925 screams enthusiast jargon. Sort of revisionist history.

Or is this a US/Br/EU English ENGVAR garbage deal? They weren't platforms here then and I'd be surprised if they are commonly here now.

For whatever reason I believe editors have used industry jargon common to them where it wasn't originally used, doesn't fit very well, and isn't needed. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 02:24, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

@Sammy D III: I mainly bristle at the notion that we are not allowed to use commonly accepted words to describe various concepts (see MPV discussion above), and "platform" is not an unusual word to describe the common underpinnings of several designs. I do see your point, however, in that this may be an unsuitable neologism in this case. General Motors A-body (RWD) is probably a better typical title for these pages. While "body" is even less accurate than "platform" for describing a shared chassis and mechanicals, it is what GM and most commentators use.  Mr.choppers | ✎  19:16, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

A problem with using "-body" in this case is that it only applies to certain instances - many platforms are not referred to in that way (e.g. GM Delta platform). Consistent terminology across articles would be preferable.

I have an issue with assuming complete incompetence on the part of the average Wikipedia reader. Most with enough of an interest in the subject to click the link for one of these articles are probably not going to be completely bewildered at the concept - and for those who have never heard of it before, car platform is linked in the first sentence in most (if not all) cases. In fact, "platform" is what the pertinent infobox field is titled - what's the alternative? --Sable232 (talk) 15:41, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

While I see the inconsistency issue, I think we should use the wp:COMMONNAME. I just noticed that the GM F-body cars are listed as F-platform. The problem is no one call it that. [[2]][[3]][[4]]. One of those did say "F-body platform". However, this might also be a case of confusing terms. The GM F-body article covers several generations of Camaros/Firebirds where there is basically nothing in common between those from the late 60s vs from the late 90s. They wouldn't be considered the same GM platform. I think GM used body to refer to a size/market segment rather than a common set of parts as they did with the Alpha and Gamma Platforms. In this case we really should change articles like GM F-platform to GM F-body since this follows both common name and common sense given how GM was using the term. Springee (talk) 18:56, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I enjoyed watching that, it got me thinking. No real focus, though.

Side note: I didn't know that MPV is an aka for Minivan (US POV). Ross (I ask too) thought Unimog. I know the term, of course, but using it for a whole type? (Interesting story). Someone who grew up in a MPV market just assumed I knew that. That looks like a huge US-centric knowledge gap to me, and I didn't notice.

This isn't ready, but the real world... My problem isn't with using the word "platform", just where. Especially in titles for pre-"platform" common use vehicles.

Platform is industry jargon here, I haven't gotten any hits either (computers come up). Every editor probably agrees that world cars have platforms, even though the readers may not know. It almost has to go in the text of one, it'll be in context or linked.

I question whether the term should be used for vehicles from before it was common in auto circles. Especially in titles.

I don't know Br/EU English, when did "platform" become car-talk there? VW and Renault (shudder) had real platforms, but was a Reliant Kitten (Flipping Bangers) on the same "platform" as a saloon in the UK Motor Trend whatever at that time?

I think I saw a world car article with several international names with "platform", that made sense as a device. You are grouping different names together and "platform" is as good a word as any, "family" seems like writing down. I wouldn't think "platform" was confusing used like that.

I thought the whole point of "MPV" was what incompetence is. Just because someone doesn't know as much as me doesn't mean they're incompetent, only that they haven't the knowledge on that particular subject and I shouldn't assume that they do.

Or I can be obsolete. I spend time in the past, using archaic/industry/scientific words which apply to the subject in context. And I think a '25 Chevy is in the past. But maybe everything should be updated to contemporary languages.

I'll try harder next time, circumstances. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I am in agreement that the "platform" expression does not need to be applied retroactively, at least not when those items already have accepted names - in addition to the A-body and X-car etcetera, I just realized to my dismay that the Tipo Quattro has been titled Type Four platform here (in Scandinavia it was referred to as the "Club of Four"). I really do not think "platform" is the correct word for many of these articles. Are there any editors who oppose some judicious renamings, mainly for the very clear cases?  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:24, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm in total agreement in cases where the mfr and/or publications do not refer to it as a "platform". Wikipedia should not try to change terms used in sources to fit out current views. Springee (talk) 03:01, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi. I thought I might add a few comments as to whether the term should be "platform" or "body" and thought maybe we could look at how it began in the very early days. GM in 1909 bought several companies to include Oldsmobile, Buick, Oakland and Cadillac. As they were still making cars using the process at the time which was bare chassis, engine and suspension, then contracted the coachwork or "body" to former buggy makers, the body for GM cars was done by Fisher Body and then individualized for each brand, meaning lots of chrome on Cadillacs and basic appearance items for Chevrolet. In 1925, when the A-, B-, and C- "body" were introduced, it was so they could standardize production at Fisher. If you look at the cars from 1925-1940, all GM cars are almost identical, with minor changes every year. The "body" used was influenced by the wheelbase while the coachwork came from several Fisher factories which shared body pieces for each brand. When Harley Earl retired in 1958, every GM car and truck all had an almost identical appearance with dual headlights, probably a tribute to Mr. Earl, then in 1960 everything changed radically when Bill Mitchell took over. So, should the term "platform" which is more modern, or "body" be used? I think the GM fanbase would say "body".(Regushee (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2021 (UTC))

Just a note: I think that someone doing this will find out that US Chrysler also used Letter(=size) body designations in the 1960s-1970s. No idea about Ford. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 01:55, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Ford did it at least with the Fox-body. While the article is called Ford Fox platform a look at the citations makes it clear the "Fox-body" is the common name. It's probably worth listing out articles like this so we as a group can change the names. Springee (talk) 03:18, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

And this is only US English so far. @Mr.choppers: sort of showed the nightmare non-English names could become. Sammy D III (talk) 11:20, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I think this wouldn't be a problem since we should only use "-body" where sources do the same. We have that for many US Ford and GM platforms but I don't think we have that for source talking about platforms outside the US. I also think Ford and GM moved away from the term as they started to adopt more "world car" designs. Springee (talk) 11:50, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

You could be right, it was just a thought. I have no idea what the British call their autos. I'm also thinking definition, but I'm not from here. I personally think all world cars have platforms and have seen it done correctly as a title. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 12:34, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I think we are starting to reach an agreement that some of the "x platform" articles should be renamed based on what sources call them. I'm trying to decide the best way to phrase things. Take the F-body cars. The F-body refers to multiple, largely unrelated generations of Camaro/Firebird cars not unlike the F-series refers to many generations of Ford trucks. Thus I wouldn't be OK calling this the "F-Body Platform" as it's actually a series of platforms. Also, would we call it a "platform" if it only sits under one car? For example, is the Corvette C7 a platform or just a single car? I personally think it would be OK to call it a platform that just happens to underpin only one car. In the case of the F-body cars I would suggest saying "F-body" was the name of a series of platforms. Springee (talk) 14:11, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

In titles only use anything when necessary. - In the US for titles on pre-"world cars" you could just default to "body", both the commonname and usually "official" name". - In the blurb editors will always use platform whenever they want, and since it is sort of a vague term they'll be right most of the time. - I can see a C7 's body platform, the part of the car the components attach to. The idea of it. I don't think the C7 is a platform because there are two different bodies, hard and soft top. I would like a wider range, but that's just my outside opinion. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 16:08, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I see your point but consider the GM Kappa platform that was under the Saturn Sky, Opel something and Pontiac Solstice. These would generally be seen as a rebadged jobs with only two body styles (and changes to non-structural panels). This as opposed to a flexible platform (for example Ford's CD3 which produced both sedans and SUVs). Anyway, I guess the answer is, "use your head when making changes". Springee (talk) 16:22, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Automotive industry in Japan

Would some members of this WikiProject mind taking a look at Automotive industry in Japan#Car Brands? It seems rather excessive and unbalanced to have an image gallery of logos right after the lead section and it was a bold addition made by an IP editor a few weeks ago. Of course, being bold and being made by an IP aren't necessarily bad things, but in this case a little more discussion might be a good idea. There is some more information about Japanese automobile manufacturers in Automotive industry in Japan#Manufacturers where perhaps these logos might be better incorporated, but at the same time there's doesn't really seem to be a lot of encyclopedic relevance to adding them to this more general article per WP:GALLERY, etc. since their use appears more decorative than contextual, at least it does to me. There's also a problem with non-free content use because there's pretty much no way to justify the use of any non-free logo in an image gallery such as this per WP:NFG. The ones currently shown all appear to be from Commons; so, that's not an issue at the moment. Someone has, however, tired to add several non-free logos to this gallery and they have been repeatedly removed by a WP:BOT because their use isn't policy compliant. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:18, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: I already removed this gallery, just now saw this comment. WP:BRD and all that.  Mr.choppers | ✎  19:42, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Mr.choppers:. The edit summary you left here was probably because my above post was a bit confusing. While it's true that non-free logos can't really be used in a image gallery like, freely-licensed or public domain logos can. Since the gallery you removed didn't contain any non-free logos (a bot had already removed them), there were really no non-free content use policy concerns that needed addressing. However, the gallery did seem undue and not very encyclopedic, and removing it was (in my opinion) the proper thing to do; just not for the reason you gave. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:15, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Hyundai N brand to Hyundai N merger

Hello, fellow members? I believe that to create more consistency in this encyclopedia if we didn't have two different articles with the same name. Therefore, I shall try to merge the Hyundai N brand article to the Hyundai N article. Would any members of this WikiProject assist me?JTZegers^Speak
_Aura 17:54, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Update: I just did that by myself :P--JTZegers^Speak
_Aura 19:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

List of production battery electric vehicles table expansion/merger

We need an expert (not me, currently I'm dumb) to restore the "completeness" of the table in List of production battery electric vehicles after the epic merge.JTZegers^Speak
_Aura 21:02, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Reverted the merge because it is a massive removal of information. Regards, Andra Febrian (talk) 02:33, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I think it's obvious a merge is necessary. The title List of production battery electric vehicles (table) is an egregious MOS violation, and the two pages are content forks of each other. That said, I thought I advised that the content should be merged (both sets of content on one page) as an intermediate stage, not replaced. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree. I think it should be merged to make this encyclopedia more easy to use. We're improving, and I will only re-merge when we reach a concensus, which should be soon. The article List of production battery electric vehicles (table) clearly needs to be updated, violates WP:MOS and WP:CFORK policies, and should have been merged a long time ago to avoid me getting in trouble for blanking.If we agree that the table is the right choice, then we will work together to merge the two articles. If the list is after all better, then I will CSD the table as an unnessecary disambiguation page. And my mentor will probably hate me.JTZegers^Speak
_Aura 12:26, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

GM and Opel diesels

Hi y'all, does anyone know any more about Opel's new diesel threes and fours? I have sussed out that they share their architecture with GM's new Duramax I6 engine. The three-cylinder engine is currently included in GM Medium Diesel engine, but I don't know that this is correct as it is a whole new design. Maybe they should be part of the Duramax I6 article, but this would need a new name. Does anyone know what Opel calls this engine? Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  18:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

General Motors companion make program at FAC

Hello,

I just wanted to let you know that I have nominated General Motors companion make program at FAC here. Thanks!

 – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Simca Horizon

I started a renaming discussion at Talk:Simca-Talbot_Horizon#Requested_move_9_May_2021, please weigh in there if you have the time. Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  23:46, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Template:Infobox racing driver has an RFC

Template:Infobox racing driver has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Arbiter. WPA's choice of names is a guide for those writing about automobiles in English

It may give a few motoring journalists a bit of a laugh but I think the members of this project should face up to their responsibility. You people decide the terminology used particularly where editors are using English as a second language and are aware they can misuse or misunderstand English words. Don't let it become a muddle. Eddaido (talk) 13:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

That's okay - I also got quite a laugh when I saw lot's of 'infart' and 'utfart' signs when driving around Europe (they mean entrance and exit). We will never please everybody because English differs around the world. We still argue about bonnet vs hood, boot vs trunk and petrol vs gasoline. Such is the world we live in.  Stepho  talk  06:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Hey Stepho, not at all what I meant. Which English-speaking country was it used those 'infart' and 'utfart' signs? Love to hear about it. Send an email. Eddaido (talk) 01:55, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Your mentioned non-English speakers reading English. My example was the same thing from the opposite side - English speakers reading non-English. Even Brits reading American English and vice-versa can have trouble. I've had instances where I wrote "windscreen" and some Americans couldn't figure out that it was the same as their "windshield".  Stepho  talk  06:29, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

That's Swedish (and other Scandinavian languages). "Uppfart" is a driveway, or whatever it is called in y'alls part of the world.  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:44, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

BrightDrop COI edit requests

Hi! I'm a COI editor BrightDrop (a subsidiary of GM, a client of my employer). I've posted some edit requests to the talk page for that article. If anyone here has time to take a look, I'd appreciate it! Thank you. Mary Gaulke (talk) 20:24, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

We should never have created a standalone article about an announced future brand or unshipped product, per WP:CRYSTAL #5: Wikipedia is not a collection of product announcements and rumors. BrightDrop needs to be redirected to General Motors, with a few sentences saying the GM announced a new brand (WTF are they calling it a "startup"? If we're not speaking English here any more, nobody told me) and said they'd ship an electric pallet mover in late 2021. If they do ship the pallet mover, we might want a standalone article, if it gets significant coverage, per WP:PRODUCT. It is totally fine to mention a company's announcemnts on articles that are on otherwise notable topics, but creating separate articles is not fine.

It's still not too late to redirect Tesla Roadster (second generation) while we're at it, instead of giving fanboys a place to post gobbledygook about Tesla's, um, flying rocket car? That article has turned into some kind of joke meme. Adults, please? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

"Late model"

The Late model (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article starts with an intro section about production cars, and then all the rest of the article is about the unrelated topic of racecar racing. Latemodels in stock car look like Dali-esque silhouettes of 1970s cars, and not recent production models (which top line stock car racing uses). To me, this should be split into two articles, one on late model production cars, and one on late model racing. What do you guys think? -- 67.70.27.180 (talk) 19:55, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the IP. I wonder though if the article should simply be moved to Late Model Racing and remove reference to road cars. Is the term really that common when referring to road cars? A7V2 (talk) 10:28, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Seconded. The reference to road cars may still be appropriate somewhere in the article, but definitely not the lead. I don't think it's a common term referring to road cars, which is why somebody would want to look it up in the first place. It's such a trivial definition that a separate article is unnecessary. IPBilly (talk) 13:56, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

It's fairly frequent description of road cars in police blotter reports -- 67.70.27.180 (talk) 02:49, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times help needed

Opinions needed at List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times Drachentötbär (talk) 11:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

@Drachentötbär: Could you be more specific? Thanks, A7V2 (talk) 23:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Just click https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times&action=history to see the dispute. A new user appeared and keeps moving a car from the non-series/non-road-legal to the production/street-legal section. Drachentötbär (talk) 00:03, 17 June 2021 (UTC)