Talk:Candomblé

Orixá, orisha and oricha

Hi, people. I'm creating this discussion because I've noticed the page predominantly uses the English-language word "orisha" to refer to Candomblé's deities. Well, this is English Wikipedia so maybe it's expected and the guidelines say to use English preferably. However, it also says to mention native written forms. In Brazilian Portuguese, the correct form is "orixá", so the first sentence of the second paragrah ("Candomblé is monotheistic, involving the veneration of spirits known as orishas" [also not sure why it's in italic if it's English]), maybe should be written as something like "Candomblé is monotheistic, involving the veneration of spirits known as orixás (or orishas)" or "known as orishas (or orixás, in Portuguese)" or "spirtis natively known as orixás". I don't know either if there's an established form used in English-language sources. For this purpose, Midnightblueowl may be the person to contact since s/he did a great work here. I'd also like to notice that the article currently also uses "orichas", which probably is not correct unless it's also widely used by scholars. "Orichas" is probably derived from Spanish "orichás"—as a side note, Santería articles mostly use almost-native form "orichas", but also uses "orishas" regularly. I think a standard should be adopted both here and in Santería article. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 16:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I do feel some of the assertions need to be better authenticated...

1) 'That Candomblé spread to other countries...'. I think most of the evidence is that the varieties of Afro religions in other countries arose directly from the diaspora rather than each other. This is not to say that Candomblé per se could not be practiced in other countries as well.

2) 'That practitioners are "disproportionately poor, female, and a great proportion of males homosexual' ... The veracity and relevance of this needs to be better authenticated unless good demographics are available? In which case they can be cited. That a higher proportion are women is a common enough observation, but I have also visited terreiros where the gender balance at a particular gathering was approximately equal. The poorer sector is a common assumption as well, though remember that the past two Presidents also had Candomblé connections in Benin and Salvador includes academics that I have met. Disproportionate to what? The general population of Brazil as a whole high a high proportion of poorer people, yet the main cities are modern and Sao Paulo, which has vibrant Candomblé communities, has many wealthy people. As with "poor" and "female" the tag "homosexual" seems to be making a slur, however unintentional, especially as there is no especial link with the religion itself. The one source quoted for this, from Queer Black Anthropology, is by an American author and her article focuses on black lesbians, not homosexual men, and only in Salvador. A more balanced demographic study can be found here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6142372/. The author suggests that a higher female proportion might be due to women taking more interest in spirituality. Though there is much overlap as well as confusion generally between Candoble/Umbanda/Spiritism. With respect to the Wiki author's other work, I politely suggest that the statement is possibly irrelevant, misleading and should be removed.
3) One unique facet of Brazilian Candomble/Umbanda that differentiates it from its Afro-origins is the Pomba-Gira cult which is a considerable force for female empowerment (as is much of Candomblé, perhaps on account of its status as a non-patriarchal religion). If one must mention gender, then some positives might be in order. Categorizing (by implication) Candomblé practitioners as female/gay/lesbian is a little too close to the evangelical campaign to demonize the traditional religion.

Parzivalamfortas 13:49, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

You make a very good point, Gabriel Yuji. I agree that we probably should stick with the Portuguese spelling orixás in this article, although I have seen different spellings used in the English-language academic publications on Candomblé. Causing a slight bit of confusion is the distinction between the orixás as the spirits of Candomblé and the orishas of Yoruba-derived religious traditions as a whole; both of which are mentioned in the article. For that reason, we may still need a combination of the two spellings, depending on which is being referred to (and perhaps an explanatory note to make clear the difference in spelling?). Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:55, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Midnightblueowl, I haven't paid attention to the distinction between orixás and orishas. Good point. An explanatory note would be good to explain such a sudden change within the same article. (So this distinction explains the use of both "orichas" and "orishas" in the Santería article that initially confused me—a note there would be useful too.) Gabriel Yuji (talk) 03:04, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

In further support of the differentiation suggested above, please note specificity in the uses of the term. In Brazil, "orixá" has the straightforward meaning as defined above; in Benin however, "Orisha" is also the name of the religion, as practiced by the Yoruba – distinguishing it from "Vodou", as practiced by the Fon. Parzivalamfortas 01:03, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I have undone an edit to the first paragraph which had suggested the primacy of Bantu speaking peoples in the origin of Candomblé. Bantu, as made clear further down in the text is only one of several that contributed. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_languages. Parzivalamfortas 00:55, 28 June 2021 (UTC)