Talk:Harvard University

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2021

Remove puffery "and among the most prestigious in the world.[7]" in the leading paragraph. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:College_and_university_article_guideline#Neutral_point_of_view and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipuffery Ghik90 (talk) 14:13, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

This has been extensively discussed here in Talk. Please open a new discussion if you think there may be a new or changed consensus. ElKevbo (talk) 15:31, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

• Looks like the OP's upset about something going on at University of Cambridge. EEng 15:36, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Both of your links point to essays. It can be included (as can almost anything) with proper sourcing. See also WP:HIGHERED REP for an RfC on that matter. 15 (talk) 15:37, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Boosterism

I put the booster tag because this article has many issues with boosterism. Please do not remove until these issues are fixed. KhanzotChinev (talk) 21:19, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

@KhanzotChinev: Please be more specific. ElKevbo (talk) 21:34, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Lonely, lonely men of Harvard. EEng 05:36, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I will be reinstating the tag. Please do not remove it until you have addressed the boosterism. KhanzotChinev (talk) 22:03, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Please do not reinstate the tag until you have read WP:HIGHERED REP, looked at the sources for the lead and set out a good argument for why the lead should be changed. 15 (talk) 22:08, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I am concerned about the quality of this page. Many weasel words and phrases such as "among the most prestigious in the world." You could say the same about many universities. It is nothing more than boosterism. I don't have time to point out everything. I will be attempting to fix the boosterism but I need all the help I can get. Therefore, we need the tag to remain up. KhanzotChinev (talk) 22:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm concerned about the quality of the article as well, but this statement of the universally acknowledged isn't part of the problem. EEng 23:14, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose to merge Harvard Summer School into Harvard University. I think that the content in the Foo article can easily be explained in the context of Bar, and the Bar article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Foo will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. Egroeg5 (talk) 23:23, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely not. This is a top-level article that must speak in only the broadest terms (though it does so very spottily and badly as of now). Harvard Extension School would be a more sensible target, since they're both part of the Division of Continuing Education; however, that article has some prickly watchers so expect resistance. EEng 05:27, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for feedback. As it stands, I just think the Summer School article is on the simple side and would make the University article stronger/more detailed. Egroeg5 (talk) 10:55, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

As I said, the University article can't afford to be detailed. EEng 13:14, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Don't merge This makes no sense. The Harvard Summer School is one program among dozens at Harvard. This is an overview article and cannot and should not have details on individual programs. --Macrakis (talk) 14:48, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Support merging one or two sentences into this article. A brief mention of "the first academic summer session established and the oldest summer school present in the United States" seems appropriate in this article. As currently written, the topic doesn't seem notable enough to warrant its own article (but I wouldn't be surprised if there are sufficient sources that can be added to change this). ElKevbo (talk) 15:00, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

That doesn't sound like merging to me. Merging would imply that the existing Harvard Summer School article would disappear, yet, even though it's fairly short, it contains much more information than would be suitable for the main Harvard University article (when it was founded, who the dean is, how many students it enrolls, how long the session lasts, what sort of academic credit it offers, how many courses in how many disciplines it offers, etc.), and there is surely much more that could be added. For example, what proportion of its students are US vs. foreign? The age distribution and whether they're high school students vs. college students? Whether any courses offered on-line? How much it costs and whether it offers financial aid. How much of its faculty is junior Harvard faculty, senior Harvard faculty, faculty from other universities, postdocs, grad students? Does it offer any of the famous Harvard undergrad classes with the famous professors?, etc. etc.

As for adding another phrase or two to the main article, I disagree. Why does the Summer School need "one or two sentences" when the Law and Design schools -- both among the top 5 in their fields -- get precisely two linked words each in the article? --Macrakis (talk) 19:30, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Oppose merge. The summer school is distinct; joining them would become absorbing it as a minuscule version of the current article. Lindenfall (talk) 21:33, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I see no support for this proposal other than from the OP. ElKevbo proposes to add a "brief mention", but that's not the same as merging. --Macrakis (talk) 17:09, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Mary Robinson (2014).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:41, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposal for lead section to include mention of Cambridge University as "inspiration" for Harvard

EEng claims "well versed in H history" but asks "in what way is Harvard 'shaped in the image of the English university model?'", despite a reptable source stating "If we would know upon what model Harvard College was established, what were the ideals of her founders and the purposes of her first governors, we need seek no further than the University of Cambridge", showing they clearly are not as versed in the History as they pride themselves on. EEng also says "it's to Emmanuel specifically, not Cambridge generally", showing that they also are completely unfamiliar with Oxford and Cambridge and how the collegiate systems work--it is completely common to refer to a Cambridge or Oxford at large despite a movement being primarily located in one of the colleges. This is like saying "well the development of the theory of magnetism occured primarily in the physics department, so you can't attribute that to the entire university". Further EEng is repeatedly being antagonistic, suggesting that they are continually reverting edits based on their ego, instead of objective justifications. They continue to try to move the goalpoast (source not good, then they missunederstand the source not being aware how colleges are often referred to by Cambridge at large, etc) suggesting again that these edits are based on their ego, which has possible been damaged as they personally pride themselves on knowing the history. Their concerns can be addressed here, but given their repeated revelations of their lack of knowledge, they should quit making reverts and instead make adjustments as needed.Granticus31 (talk) 00:49, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't pride myself on my knowledge of Harvard history, but I do know that history fairly well, and am the author of numerous articles in the area.

You've got two experienced editors reverting your addition, so you're going to need make your case for it instead of talking about me. The article's History section already recites that Harvard originally offered "a classic curriculum based on the English university model‍", which is what you seem to be struggling to say in the text you keep trying to force in (along with the grammatically fractured eponymy and so on). More at [1]. EEng 08:01, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

@EEng: @Macrakis: My apologies for being antagonistic and derisive at times; though I was trying to be objective and civil,I admit I might have slipped into a more passive-aggressive approach as well as some more blatant breaches of WP:CIVIL, in part because I'm unfamiliar with the wikipedia MO and became frustrated. I also remind you to follow WP:CIVIL and be respectful towards me as well. I've retitled this section so that it is more productive and less about my frustration with our lack of consensus. Granticus31 (talk) 12:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

My main proposal is to include in the lead section some mention of Cambridge University in some way being an inspiration or progenitor (or whatever word we find most suitable) for Harvard University. Firstly, it is very common for university wikipages to have some mention of the founding principles and some sort of nexus with history prior to the said university's founding. For example, UPenn [2] mentions in the 3rd sentence of the article Benjamin Franklin and his founding principles of UPenn. Columbia University also mentions early in the lead section that "Columbia was established by royal charter from George II of Great Britain in reaction to the founding of Princeton College," [3] noting a connection prior to its founding with another university.

Of note, this was edited out [4] by a potential sockpuppet account[5] for no listed reason, by editor Josefaught who has recently edited this page, perhaps in violation of the rules.

I could go through numerous other examples (if in doubt, please specify an integer number of examples that would be satisfactory to prove this point), but it is commonplace to mention the founding principles and/or relationship with a previous institution. Second, I think this connection is particularly strong given that the entire town was also named after the university as well, so mentioning Cambridge Uni seems especially germane as it explains both the location name and university principles. Third, this connection is robustly established in numerous authoritative sources, which establishes this connection unequivocally (again "If we would know upon what model Harvard College was established, what were the ideals of her founders and the purposes of her first governors, we need seek no further than the University of Cambridge"). The objection regarding Emma college as being separate from Cambridge Uni is based on a misapprehension of the OxBridge collegiate system in my opinion, but if anyone wishes to sustain this objection I can elaborate on exactly why, but hopefully this is clear enough without further explanation. There is influence from other universities (Oxford and Paris), but they were not as central as the Cambridge connection. Cambridge had been in operation for over 400 years by this point (longer than Harvard has been in operation to date) and has crucial importance in world history; likewise, Harvard's place in American history is arguably unparalleled and I struggle to think of a university that is more well-known in the world. Therefore, uniting these two pages is tremendously important for the reader, and of course, as in actual history the link between the two is undeniable, inextricable, and crucial. I feel strongly that the page should reflect this historical fact in a manner similar to many other university lead sections. I suggest the sentence "Harvard University is directly modeled after the University of Cambrige, the alma mater of John Harvard." Some mention of colonial leaders (which I of course know that John Harvard was a benefactor, not a "leader" of Harvard) attending Cambridge and/or mentioning that the very town is named after Cambridge Uni could be made in the lead section--though this might need an additional sentence--or could simply be relegated to later sections. Another option is "John Harvard and many leaders in the colony had attended the University of Cambridge, which the town was named after and Harvard was modeled upon." I don't see the "grammatically fractured eponymy" but I'm open to hearing an explanation. Granticus31 (talk) 12:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

With all of that said, I'd also like to hear reasons against the inclusion of this historical link between Harvard and Cambridge Uni, and will try to address any concerns directly once I know what they are. Granticus31 (talk) 12:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for moderating your tone.

Though I live only a short walk from the Statue of the three lies and have two degrees from Harvard, I don't claim to be an expert on the history of the College or the broader University. My contributions to this article have mostly been about keeping it well-balanced, without undue emphasis on any particular aspect of the University -- in particular, the College tends to get overemphasized at the expense of the graduate schools.

The origins and early history of the College are certainly interesting, and are pretty well covered in a rather long section of this article as well as a full article on the History of Harvard University. But this is just one chapter of the University's history.

And I would argue that the main problem with the Colonial section is not that it underemphasizes UCambridge -- in fact, it mentions it quite prominently -- but rather that it underemphasizes the common Puritan roots of Emmanuel College and Harvard and the centrality of Puritanism at Harvard during the 17th century (the second paragraph of the article rather underplays it). See the interesting but hardly definitive Crimson article "Emmanuel and Harvard" (1923). But as I say, I am hardly an expert on the College's history.

In any case, the 17th century background is a small part of the story. Today's Harvard owes little to Puritanism or the Oxbridge college system -- the House system was only instituted in the 1930s and, despite some superficial resemblances, functions very differently from Oxbridge colleges.

So it seems quite clear to me that a mention of UCambridge in the lead would be undue emphasis of one out of many aspects of the University. The only nod in that direction that might make sense is to add the word "Puritan" to the description of John Harvard: "its first benefactor, the Puritan clergyman John Harvard".

--Macrakis (talk) 14:59, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) +1. Also:

• Emma college as being separate from Cambridge Uni – I said nothing about Emmanuel being separate from Cambridge University. I said Emmanuel College specifically, far more than Cambridge generally, was a Puritan hotbed. That's why John Harvard's plinth has Emmanuel's insignia, not Cambridge's.
• I don't see the "grammatically fractured eponymy" – And I quote: "John Harvard and many leaders in the colony had attended the University of Cambridge and shaped the university in the image of the English university model, which the eponymous town is named after." [6] The eponymous town is not named for the English university model.

As to the issue at hand, it's ultimately just a matter of judgment, and my judgment (and that of at least one other editor) is that the connection to Cambridge isn't important enough for the already overstuffed lead, because there's a lot of important stuff to say about Harvard and it can't all fit there. As already mentioned, the History section already covers this material, and to have the lead -- the first paragraph of the lead -- read

Harvard University is a private Ivy League research university in Cambridge, Massachusetts that was established in 1636 and named for its first benefactor, clergyman John Harvard. John Harvard and many leaders in the colony had attended the University of Cambridge, which the town was named after and Harvard was modeled upon. Harvard is the oldest institution of higher learning in the United States and among the most prestigious in the world.

... is (sorry to repeat this) simply absurd. It sticks out like a sort thumb. (Also, What town?.) If we were going to say anything at all along these lines, it'd be re "dreading to leave an illiterate ministry to the churches, when our present ministers shall lie in the dust".

EEng 06:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

P.S. I've added something along those lines, but I'm not wedded to it.

Pandemics

I have thought that because global warming affects the world and because the current pandemics have the cases in many parts of it, they are probably related. I have written that for some posts of or a message to US President Joe Biden and the UN on Facebook in the past. However, I did not know if some people got interested in my idea as I received no replies from them.

I wanted to write my idea of covering the faces to prevent infections. It is to create a helmet-like equipment with a small air purifier inside it. In this way, I think that the infections in many cases could be avoided. Indoors, we could have the air purifiers. Outdoors, we could use the helmet-like equipment. I wrote about this equipment to the US Embassy in Tokyo through Facebook many months ago, but no one seems interested in it. It might not be useful, but I have thought that it would save people.

I heard that the patients who are and will be infected with the serious diseases might recover. I heard that a person’s power of resistance is dramatically increased with a shot of Vitamin C, and so it might be possible to save the lives of the people who are and will be infected with them. Ruby2021 (talk) 09:17, 30 August 2021 (UTC)