Talk:Bucha massacre

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Independent sources?

Is it truly 100% confirmed it was the russians or it's just alleged?

Could it be a case of Atrocity propaganda? BlackYaroslav (talk) 04:49, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The residents have confirmed it, including eye witness accounts given to Human rights watch and various reporters, including Reutuers. I mean, the twon was under Russian occupation, so who else was it going to be? Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:51, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Playing devil's advocate, some photos could be easily staged. Specially the ones of civilians with their hands tied behind their back. Given that it's in Ukraine best interest to increase western involvement in the war, and the previous pro-ukrainian stories that have been debunked, i'd say there's reason for skepticism. BlackYaroslav (talk) 05:00, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty of reputable, independent journalistic sources are backing this up. While it's possible it's all an elaborate hoax, there's no reason to believe and edit under that assumption at present. We can rewrite the article when and if that comes to pass. It's a current event and things will no doubt change significantly over the coming days. We can certainly include caveats, where necessary, to that effect. ThirdDolphin (talk) 05:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are we saying the Ukrainian army got dead bodies, tied their hands behind their backs, shot them in the head, and then littered them all over the streets of Bucha to make it look like the Russians did it? Because if we are, no sources are saying that. Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:16, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I saw only fresh corpses. but russian troops starts to retreat 3-4 days ago. Ukranian political and information space is tottaly cleaned from any different opinions so there is no point to believe any allegations from them. 46.187.84.238 (talk) 14:39, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian retreat was covered by artillery, the place is infested with mines all over and saboteurs are everywhere. It is not a 30-minute walk to re-enter the occupied town. There are hundreds of dead bodies and it takes TIME to find them, document and identify. All this process is witnessed by independent media. And how do you define "freshness" in video? Ганнуся (talk) 15:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any evidence that the artillery fired from the Russian side and did not cover the advance of the Ukrainian forces? By the way, if saboteurs were left there, then why risk shelling the territory in which they are located? As far as I know, in Kyiv, a considerable number of civilians were killed by mistake by territorial defense. Also, white armbands were seen on some of the civilians killed in Bucha. 46.187.84.238 (talk) 16:38, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There was a scene of mass atrocities, and this was definitely done by the Russians. It could be possible that some stories were exaggerated, but overall there was a series of major war crimes. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not a good article by any metric

No evidence yet that Russia killed them. Also replace estimated with "claimed by the Ukrainian government". And no 1-2 alleged eye witnesses are not evidence IdkIdc12345 (talk) 05:03, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

yeah? There's reports from the residents themselves, given to HRW and Reuters, and its linked in the article. If it wasn't Russia, who was it? Did the residents tie their own hands behind their backs, and then all shoot each other in the head somehow? Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:13, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are many possible scenarios that could play out, but the simple fact is that the international community see the invasion as an illegal act of aggression, so deaths of civilians is a war crime no matter how you slice it. 2.217.215.204 (talk) 13:19, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@IdkIdc12345: Please familiarize yourself with WP:V and also read the essay: WP:TRUTH. The key word in the page is 'allegedly', there is no conclusion yet as this is still an ongoing event (although I can agree there is obvious WP:RECENT violations, which unfortunately is normal in new/charged issues like this). Regardless, multiple secondary sources are reporting this, the page will almost certainly change as new info comes out.

I can also see in your contributions seem to be involved heavily with the Russo-Ukrainian conflict. I would recommend editing less controversial pages first to familiarize yourself with WP policies before editing something this hot button. I can see there is a warning on your talk page and I'd rather nip this in the bud before anyone escalates it to WP:ANI.

It could, in theory, be propaganda but until we have reliable, secondary sources on the matter, the page will remain as is. If you have a source saying otherwise, please cross reference with Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources before putting it in the talk page.

Etriusus 15:51, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Deathlibrarian, you're clearly extremely biased and are not at all trying to set that aside while working on this article. You can't just claim that Russia did something because *you* believe that's the most likely explanation. That's called original research, and it's disallowed on this site. AriseYeWretchedOfTheEarth (talk) 15:41, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image licensing issues

The image heading this article has problems with it's licensing that may lead to it being deleted: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_for_Bucha_form_vokzalyna.jpg

We should consider swapping it out when a better, licensed image becomes available as this one is liable to be deleted. ThirdDolphin (talk) 06:43, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Allegedly" should be removed.

I noticed someone placed "allegedly" in the lede "The Bucha massacre was a slaughter of civilians in the Ukrainian town of Bucha, allegedly by Russian troops involved in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine." Seriously? If civilians are dead, their hands tied behind their back, and shot in the head, who did that? Did they all do it to themselves? I have not seen any source challenge the fact it was the Russians, and there are plenty of articles that indicate it was. I move that the allegedly is removed. Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:11, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, it should not.

Particularly when the Ukrainians have been repeatedly caught lying about such things and are waging a massive propaganda war.

Vilhelmo De Okcidento (talk) 13:57, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Until proven by indpendent bodies and investigation it should be kept. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 14:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. I also wrote it in a more neutral tone. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:21, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No reliable sources have so far suggested that it was faked, or that anyone else is responsible, except for Russia, as they were the occupying power. There is plenty of RS here to indicate it was Russia, including eye witness accounts. If anyone is proposing that some other country did this, or that it was faked, then they should bring forth some RS to support that proposition. Deathlibrarian (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainians did, videos emerged of same people on streets before that where in basement wearing white ribbons indicating they are Russia sympathizers, molested by Ukrainians, then shot dead, then dragged on streets, also on separate video filmed on same day. Also video of same street empty without bodies on same day emerged. And this is not alleged but in article we should replace Russian atrocities with Ukrainian atrocities. Loesorion (talk) 17:52, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Whether you believe it's reasonable or not, it's true that these are still alleged to be committed by Russia, not confirmed to be. AriseYeWretchedOfTheEarth (talk) 15:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian "denial"?

I'm talking about this statement here in the Aftermath section:

Russian authorities denied that their forces had targeted civilians during the battle.^[1]

The problem is the source never talks about specific Russian responses to the incident in Bucha. The closest thing I could fund in the source is this quote:

Despite the Russian authorities claiming that their forces are not targeting civilians in Ukraine, there is clear evidence of the opposite. Russian forces have repeatedly attacked densely populated residential areas of Ukraine’s cities with missiles, air bombs, and artillery.

This is only about the Russian reaction in general. Not about Bucha in specific. I've added a Failed verification tag to this claim as I can't find any evidence whatsoever that Russian officials have said this, or even made an official statement on the topic. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:42, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Defence Ministry is denying it: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=62498d9f4f71af55b46169bc%26Questions%20over%20Russian%20Bucha%20denials%262022-04-03T12%3A46%3A56.299Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:8c3f96fe-38ea-436a-a719-f0de64607dd6&pinned_post_asset_id=62498d9f4f71af55b46169bc&pinned_post_type=share 119.74.177.38 (talk) 14:47, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I stand corrected. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:48, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian denial in full is here https://t.me/MFARussia/12230 16:21, 3 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.124.113.102 (talk)

References

^ Rudenko, Olga (2022-04-02). "Hundreds of murdered civilians discovered as Russians withdraw from towns near Kyiv (GRAPHIC IMAGES)". The Kyiv Independent. Retrieved 2022-04-03.

Article is extremely flawed.

This article has serious neutrality issues, and it also editorializes in some places, adding unsourced details which seem only to be speculative. AriseYeWretchedOfTheEarth (talk) 15:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Completely fake

There is a source with analyses that explaining fake with video of staging scene - Ukrainian soldiers drag dead people on street and many more. There where videos of deputy from Butcha driving same streets before journalist on same day without bodies. Also lack of logic that Russians shell themselves and when they redeploy leaving dead bodies on streets? And dead people on streets are wearing white ribbon on arm opposite from blue of Ukrainians indicating they are Russians or Russians sympathizers.

Source that discovers this is complete fake. https://telegra.ph/Situaciya-v-Buche-CHto-bylo-na-samo-dele-04-03

In one word - Propaganda. Loesorion (talk) 17:43, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[:0-1] Rudenko, Olga (2022-04-02). "Hundreds of murdered civilians discovered as Russians withdraw from towns near Kyiv (GRAPHIC IMAGES)". The Kyiv Independent. Retrieved 2022-04-03.

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