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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2601:4a:400:4280:697d:fc3e:3c7f:a7d2 (talk) at 00:04, 18 July 2022 (→‎Requested move 11 July 2022). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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2021 Afghan Protests

Should we add the 2021 Afghan protests under the Panjshir conflict in the top part of the article where they list the various conflict? I think we should because the 2021 Afghan protests are considered part of the Panjshir conflict and the Taliban has used their military, the Islamic Army of Afghanistan, against protesters and making it more military-ish. PatriotMapperCDP (talk) 20:58, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fall of Panjshir

With the collapse of the resistance in that region, and the Taliban victory, we can finally call the whole conflict. Whatever comes next, if anything, is not part of this long conflict. It will be, if it is to be at all, something new. Frankly, that the warring parties who started it are not the same as the ones who ended it, with some of the states who started it no longer even existing, and at least one changing sides to occupy the occupier slot, shows it ought to have been called and split long ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.185.246.108 (talk) 14:52, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Simplexity22 (talk) 18:09, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Afghanistan conflict (1978–present) → Conflict in Afghanistan (1978–present) – Because this is a series of conflicts that are not necessarily interconnected. The current name makes it sound like it's the Afghanistan conflict, but it's more than just that. 'Conflict in Afghanistan' is more neutral. It's also the (right) format used for Internal conflict in Myanmar. WR 21:44, 5 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 01:26, 15 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. VR talk 07:42, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why 1978 in the title, rather than 1973?

The introduction itself states that "the 1973 Afghan coup d'état brought the monarch Mohammed Zahir Shah’s 39-year reign to an end and ended Afghanistan’s relatively peaceful period in modern history". So why is the article named Afghanistan conflict (1978-present) and not Afghanistan conflict (1973-present)? Seems a little arbitrary to put as the beginning of the chaos that continues until today a counter-coup (the one from 1978) rather than the actual first coup that had established a one-party autocracy (1973). Just some food for thought, would appreciate people's opinions. Dan Palraz (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is very debatable if the 1973 or the 1978 coup marked the end of the peaceful period for Afghanistan but my impression is most authors depict the Saur revolution as the more important event. For instance, here long-time Afghanistan observer William Maley puts the end of that period in 1978:
Maley, William (2021). The Afghanistan Wars (3rd ed.). Red Globe Press. p. 1. ISBN 978-1-352-01100-5.

Afghanistan is a land of extremes. For nearly 50 years of the twentieth century, from 1929 until 1978, it appeared to be one of the most peaceful countries in Asia, although tensions were building – both internally and in its international relations – that finally erupted with dramatic force.

Rodric Braithwaite also puts the start of the tragedy into 1978.
Braithwaite, Rodric (2011). Afgantsy: The Russians in Afghanistan 1979–1989. New York: Oxford University Press. p. 37. ISBN 978-0-19-983265-1.

On 27 April 1978 President Daud was bloodily overthrown by the Afghan Communists, the innocuous-sounding People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan. The victors called it the ‘April Revolution’, the beginning of a new age which would transform their country. More than a decade later Russians were still arguing whether it had been a proper revolution or only a coup. But General Lyakhovski, the chronicler of the war that followed in which he himself served for five years, had a starker name. For him the April coup was the beginning of tragedy not only for Afghanistan, but for the Soviet Union as well.

Also, the level of violence sharply increased after the 1978 coup and the literature is starting to describe the conflict as a civil war at some point during the year 1979. Olivier Roy estimated between 50,000 and 100,000 people disappeared during the 20 months of the Taraki–Amin period alone. The Daoud period had also seen increased violence but nothing comparable to the Taraki-Amin period.
Roy, Olivier (1990). Islam and Resistance in Afghanistan (2nd ed.). New York: Cambridge University Press. p. 95–96. ISBN 978-0-521-39700-1.

During the period of government of Taraki-Amin, the Afghan people suffered cruel repression. [...] In all, between 50,000 and 100,000 people disappeared

Jo1971 (talk) 17:23, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Jo1971. As you say, it is indeed a controversial issue. Still, I can't help but think that the name, as it now is, can be interpreted as biasedly saying that all as well in Afghanistan until "the Communists" showed up and gave a coup who would be to blame for all the chaos in the country until today, when, was we know, the stable monarchy was overthrown in the 1973 coup and an authoritarian regime put in place, only it wasn't a Communist. Given the West-East divide, including in academic perceptions, at the time, maybe we should ask ourselves if there isn't a bias in the year we choose for the beginning of the article - if there should be a year there in 1970s at all, as I don't really see how the current situation has anything to do with the coup of 1973 nor with the counter-coup of 1978... Dan Palraz (talk) 15:57, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dan Palraz: The destabilization of the country already began before the 1973 coup. In fact, the monarchy wasn't such a stable monarchy anymore in the beginning of the 1970s. For details see i.e. Ruttig, Thomas (2013). "How It All Began: Pre-1979 Origins of Afghanistan's Conflict". Afghanistan Analysts Network. It's correct that Daoud's regime was authorian but with the PDPA in the government (he purged the communist members by 1977 though). If you think there is a bias for chosing the 1978 coup, which academic writes otherwise? From what I read it's not contested that the PDPA policies drove the country into the civil war. See for instance here:
Dorronsoro, Gilles (2005). Revolution Unending. Afghanistan: 1979 to the Present. London: Hurst & Company. p. 96. ISBN 1-85065-703-3.

However, it was finally the policy of repression undertaken by the authorities which alienated the governing class, the non-communist intelligentsia and, before long, the entire population. Going beyond anecdotal explanations and immediate causes of the uprising, if was the violence of the state rather than its reforms that lay the root of the crisis.

Rubin, Barnett R. (2002). The Fragmentation of Afghanistan: State Formation and Collapse in the International System (2nd ed.). New Haven (CT): Yale University Press. p. 111. ISBN 978-0-300-09519-7.

The government, under the sole control of Khalq—itself increasingly dominated by Hafizullah Amin—tried to carry out a revolutionary transformation of Afghan society by decree and terror.

p. 115

In pursuit of a plan to eliminate opposition, Khalq used mass arrests, torture, and secret executions on a scale Afghanistan had not seen since the time of Abdul Rahman Khan, and probably not even then. Daoud and his immediate family perished in the coup.

But I think the decreasing legitimacy of the state and the increasing tensions within the country starting from the end of the 1960s could be way more detailed from my point of view. --Jo1971 (talk) 17:49, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have always thought that same thing, I guess since there wasn't much happening between the 1973 coup and the 1978 counter-coup but there has been almost constant fighting since the 1978 counter-coup than it make more sense to use 1978 as the start date of the conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.33.191 (talk) 22:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dan Palraz: @76.124.33.191: I think you're forgetting one major thing: we're talking about a conflict here. There was a coup in 1973, but it doesn't necessarily mean an armed conflict started. And if anything, there weren't any notable armed conflicts to call the situation a conflict. For the most part, the country remained peaceful during the pre-'78 period - there were only one or two isolated incidents like the Panjshir uprising, but nothing of the sort to call it a national conflict. 1978 is the correct starting year. --WR 00:03, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 July 2022

Afghanistan conflict (1978–present) → ? – Altogether these wars are not all the Afghanistan conflict, but separate conflicts that have taken place in Afghanistan. The way this article and name is set up now makes it look like this is a single conflict. The situation in Afghanistan differs from, say, Colombian conflict. I was thinking of changing to Internal conflict in Afghanistan, as 'Internal' takes into account the smaller regional conflicts that have taken place like the Taliban-ISIL conflict or the border skirmishes. Internal conflict in Myanmar uses this format as well.

Additionally I think this article needs a cutting down, since there is so much duplicates with the main articles - it reads almost like History of Afghanistan. Articles like Congolese Civil War and Insurgency in Yemen are simply bulleted lists of separate conflicts that have taken place, just as is the case in Afghanistan. WR 00:25, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I support the move. I don't really see how the situation now is related to the 1978 conflict. Dan Palraz (talk) 17:02, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please state in bold what title you support a move to. --WR 11:05, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is all a part of one conflict- the Afghan Civil War which began in 1978 and continues until today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4A:400:4280:8CEE:9FE2:26C7:D5B3 (talk) 22:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And why do you think that is? --WR 11:04, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Because that is what it is. It has been a long standing Civil War which has been going on since 1978 with foreign intervention from 1979 - 1989 and 2001 - 2021. What has been going on recently may have little-to-nothing with the Saur Revolution of 1978 but that just means that the War has evolved, that is the case with many Wars that last for Decades (if not Centuries). There has been a continuous evolutionary line from the Saur Revolution to today, where one thing led to another thing which got us to where we are today. It is part of one conflict that has evolved over time. The Soviet War in Afghanistan had little in common with the United States War in Afghanistan but it was part of the same evolutionary line so it is the same conflict. 2601:4A:400:4280:8CEE:9FE2:26C7:D5B3 (talk) 23:32, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even taking into account your view, the article would be much better titled as Internal conflict in Afghanistan, because even as you say, the US war had little in common with the Soviet war - thus this is not the Afghanistan conflict. The "Internal conflict" title is incredibly neutral and takes it all into account. --WR 19:28, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Counter question: Was there a single point of time since the Saur revolution and the outbreak of the Civil War in 1978/79 when there was really peace in the country? --Jo1971 (talk) 08:40, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For brief periods. In 1978 trouble started but it didn't turn into a state of "civil war" until at least the summer/fall of 1979. Following the end of the 2001 invasion, there was a period of relative "peace" for a time during 2002-2003, before the Taliban relaunched the insurgency. More recently, since the Taliban's takeover in 2021, there is a period of relative "peace". This does not include security incidents like terror attacks, but that does not necessarily mean a state of conflict. --WR 19:28, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are saying it: "relative peace" but no real peace. If these were individual unrelated conflicts, when did they end then? Did the war end with the Soviet withdrawal in 1989? No, it did not. Did it end with the fall of the Najibullah regime in 1992? No, it did not. Did it end when the Taliban conquered Kabul in 1996? It turned into a low-intensity war but it was still going on. Did it end when the Taliban regime was toppled in 2001? It was probably something like peace at least for some time but it would be probably absurd to see the NATO intervention in 2001 and the Taliban insurgency not as a single conflict. See for instance on the whole period from 1978:
Maley, William (2021). The Afghanistan Wars (3rd ed.). Red Globe Press. ISBN 978-1-352-01100-5.
--Jo1971 (talk) 22:29, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But the point here is that these are all different wars. The way the article is currently like makes it look like this is one close, continuous conflict called "the Afghanistan conflict", which is absolutely not the case here. Hence why I proposed "Internal conflict in Afghanistan" as a neutral, better alternative title. --WR 23:51, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They are different Sub-Wars but they are all part of one larger War, The Iraqi Conflict article is a good example of this.2601:4A:400:4280:697D:FC3E:3C7F:A7D2 (talk) 00:02, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article is very confused about its purpose: there are several different wars. The text also cites military interventions by foreign countries in Afghanistan as if they were civil wars. I don't understand how an international conflict that took place in the context of the Cold War (Soviet–Afghan War) would be related to an international conflict of the War on Terror (War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)). The correct thing would be to change the title to make it clear that this is a series of different conflicts.--Fontaine347 (talk) 13:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There has been constant fighting since 1978 so it is all one large War with a series of smaller Sub-Wars all of whom we have sepeate articles for so it does make sense to call it all one conflict. 2601:4A:400:4280:697D:FC3E:3C7F:A7D2 (talk) 22:42, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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