Talk:Production car speed record

Notes for editors

• Discussion and determination on the 20 car limit
• The most recent review of the 20 car limit

Cars excluded from the list together with basic reason

Make and model	Year	Claimed top speed	Number built	Reason
Alfa Romeo 6C 2500 Super Sport	1946–1951	106 mph (171 km/h)	Unknown	No road test
Allard J1 and K1	1946–1948	92 mph (148 km/h) to 93 mph (150 km/h) with one source claiming over 100 mph (161 km/h)	151 K1's	No road test
Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato	1960	153.5 mph (247 km/h)	19	excluded because of number built
Barabus TKR	2006	270.0 mph (435 km/h)	unknown	crashed on record attempt – no record set
Bugatti Chiron	2017	275 mph (443 km/h)	70 (500 planned)	excluded because of no road test (260 mph) and removal of speed limiter (275 mph)
Bugatti Veyron 16.4 World Record Edition	2010	267.557 mph (431 km/h)	5	excluded because of number built – see discussion on this articles talk page. Out of the initial production run of 30 there were 5, named the Super Sport World Record Edition, which had the electronic limiter turned off, and were capable of 267.857 mph (431.074 km/h), although Guinness World Records later re-verified the official land speed record.
Dauer 962 Le Mans	1994	251.4 mph (404.6 km/h)	13	not enough built
Delahaye 135	1946–1954	100 mph (161 km/h)	unknown	no road test, numbers unknown, coachbuilt
Ferrari 340 and 375 America, 410 and 400 Superamerica	1950–1959	149–165 mph (240–265 km/h)	23, 12, 35, 47	less than 20 made for 375 America and most 340 Americas were racing cars
Ferrari 250 GTO	1962–1964	174 mph (280 km/h)	36	no independent road test and each car tends to be customised, race car
Ferrari 500 Superfast	1964–1966	174 mph (280 km/h)	36	excluded because of no independent road test
Hennessey Venom GT	2010	265.7 mph (428 km/h)(2013) 270.49 mph (435 km/h)(2014)	16	excluded because of number built and single direction top speed test run
Hennessey Venom F5	2016	290 mph (467 km/h) proposed	30 to be built	unconfirmed numbers and no road test
Koenigsegg Agera (models R and One:1)	2011–2014	273 mph (439 km/h) to 280 mph (451 km/h) depending on model	less than 20 for any model	excluded because of numbers built and/or unverified top speed
Koenigsegg CCR	2004	242 mph (389 km/h)	14	excluded because of numbers built
Lamborghini Countach 5000QV	1985	185 mph (298 km/h)		speed record already higher
Lamborghini Muira P400S	1969	172 mph (277 km/h)	338	this model was introduced after the Ferrari Daytona
Maserati 5000 GT	1959–1965	172.4 mph (277 km/h) claimed – more an estimate than a true measure	34 but with different bodies	no independent test
Monteverdi Hai 450	1970	180 mph (290 km/h) claimed	only 2 proto-types built, the SS and GTS	no production version
Ruf CTR2	1995	217 mph (350 km/h)	31	16 of the 31 CTR2s were normal, while 15 were CTR2 "Sport". Top speed test missing.
Pegaso Z-102 BS 2.8 Supercharged	1953	151 mph (243 km/h)	<20	less than 20 built
Shelby SuperCars SSC (all models including TT, Ultimate Aero, and Tuatara's)	2004–2014	236 mph (380 km/h)to 276 mph (444 km/h) depending on model	less than 20 for each model	excluded because of numbers built
Studebaker Avanti R2	1962–1963	158 mph (254 km/h)	unknown for version tested	data on speed tests and configuration of the car tested unknown at this stage
Studebaker Avanti R3	1962–1963	171.1 mph (275 km/h)	6	insufficient made
Talbot Lago T26 Record and Grand Sport	1946–1954	105 mph (169 km/h) (Record) and 124 mph (200 km/h) (Grand Sport)	less than 20 for either model	excluded because of numbers built and lack of independent road test
Vector W8	1990–1993	242 mph (389 km/h) for prototype	17 production models	excluded because of number built and no verified top speed for production model

Many of these cars have been debated on this articles talk pages. Should more detailed reasoning be required refer to the relevant discussion or raise the issue on the talk page.

SSC Tuatara

I am not sure it's actually homologated in the US yet, I have not seen any proof of crash testing which is definitely necessary. If you have a look at what Koenigsegg has to do [3], I think SSC probably has some more work ahead of them. Toasted Meter (talk) 00:10, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

In the EU you are allowed to have cameras as wing mirrors but not in the US. Seemingly there are no side screens inside the Tuatara for any wing cameras (at least not seen in the recorded video run) and there are definitely no wing cameras on the car, which means it is faster than otherwise. No wing mirrors and no wing cameras means not street legal anywhere. On top of that Nelson Race Engines (www.nelsonracingengines.com) has developed and built the Tuatara engine. NRE has never created a homologated emission tested engine and they focus on aftermarket race engines. NRE uses www.electromotive.com ECU´s that are not OBD or emission compliant. Electromotive ECUs are only allowed for off road use in all markets. This in turn mean that the engine is not emission compliant. Furhtermore there is no info on www.sscnorthamerica.com/tuatara when it comes to market compliance or info on fundemental production car features, such as: Airbags, OBD, ABS, Fuel consumption etc. Only two running Tuataras have ever been seen and therefore probably been built - not 100 that is the plan. One Tuatara is white (wrapped orange at the record run) and one is black "the record car". None of them seem to have been registered for road use, as they are either seen without licence plate or with the SSC factory MFG plate, which can be put on anything with wheels on it, for testing purposes - production or not. Finally on the SSC webpage SSC define what a production car is: "In order to claim a world record, the Tuatara had to be a production vehicle; it must be identical to the same vehicle a customer might purchase." That is for sure not the common definition of a production car nor does this definition match the criteras for the wikipedia definition here as it mention nothing about for example "road legal" or "conformity of compliance" or anything of that nature. The SSC description would mean that any race car that is produced in any numbers (more than one) is a "production car" - which cannot be correct by anyones reasoning. Sagenode (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:52, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Tuatara is road-legal, though, as it was made to be a road car. As for production: 100 units will be made. Redstoneprime (talk) 16:22, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

What I think he means is that while the Tuatara is aimed to be street legal, they aren't quite there yet and are still showing prototype cars, not production cars. Perhaps in another year or 2.  Stepho  talk  16:52, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

So, what is the current fastest production car? Since we can't include the Chiron 300+ or Tuatara, that means the is no definitive "fast production car" currently. I have kept it as the Tuatara until further confirmation. Redstoneprime (talk) 17:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Naturally it is the Agera RS as it was a Homologated production car that was used for its record. No controversy and full transparency. That is whats required for acknowledgement on Wikipedia etc. Sagenode (talk) 19:54, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Wasn't the Agera RS record in 2017, though? The top speed is less that 300 mph, meaning it's not the fastest production car anymore. Also, SSC themselves, and several motoring websites (such as Top Gear) recognise the Tuatara as being a production car. If that's not the case, shouldn't the classification on the Tuataras page be changed from "Sports Car" to "Concept Car"? Redstoneprime (talk) 09:47, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Are you saying that we can buy a Tuatara today? It's only a production car if we can buy it and put it on the road.  Stepho  talk  11:22, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Production will be sometime between 2020-2022 (per the SSC Tuatara page on Wikipedia). Also, the same Wikipedia article mentions that it's currently the worlds fastest car. And, in regards to the Agera RS, I haven't found any record of it surpassing 300mph (everything I've read said the top speed is approx. 278 mph), meaning it's no longer the fastest production car. Redstoneprime (talk) 13:43, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Ah, so it is not yet a production car. Which means that when it does become a production car and if that future production car is essentially the same as the record car, then we can consider it for this list. Since the Tuatara is not a production car and the Chiron record car is also not a production car (it was a one-off special, followed by a look-alike production car that can't do the same speed), then the Agera RS at 447.19 km/h (277.87 mph) remains king of the hill. This all hinges on the record car being the same as the car that an ordinary customer can buy. If an ordinary customer can't buy a car that could do the same speed then they don't have a claim to the production car record - in spite of what their marketing department says.  Stepho  talk  20:26, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

So, as soon as it enters production, then we can include it? Redstoneprime (talk) 14:45, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes. As long as the cars bought by customers are essentially the same as the record car (which may be a whole discussion in itself, depending on what changes).  Stepho  talk  23:46, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello everybody, apparently the record by SSC has been faked. Here is the original video by Shmee that "exposed" them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3daTG4_JS_4 - I think it's pretty obvious that it's fake, unfortunately. I will mark the data in the corresponding line as disputed for now. Please do share your thoughts on this. Andibrema (talk) 21:18, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I think we should probably hold off for now, they seem to be sticking by it and they might release the telemetry. Toasted Meter (talk) 00:37, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Toasted Meter, I think we should wait maybe like 24 hours to see if they issue a formal statement and to allow time for the story to update among major outlets. TKOIII (talk) 00:58, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

They have a statement saying that the telemetry provider confirmed it but no one outside of SSC and the telemetry firm seems to have been given access. Toasted Meter (talk) 04:06, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

They're deleting call-outs on their social media channels now... Not to offend anyone, but you cannot bend the laws of physics. This car did not go 500 km/h, and all the people visiting this article right now will only take away from it that SSC are now the fast bois and probably never find out about the fraud. We have to mark it as fake, delete it or at least note that it is disputed. It is unfair the way it is right now, and it makes actions like these more attractive if us Wikipedia editors don't react immediately. Andibrema (talk) 18:46, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

WP only reports facts. Therefore, if the record is being disputed then we mark it as being disputed. If it is resolved one way or another by an authoritative source outside of WP, then WP will follow the source.  Stepho  talk  21:20, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Fair. However, there is currently no way to tell from the article that the record is not verified. What it does say is, that the SSC Tuatara went 508.73 km/h. That information does not yet have the status of a fact, yet that's what the article says. It also does not say that it is disputed, as of now, even though it clearly is. That is just deficient and misleading. Andibrema (talk) 22:13, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Yep, so let's mark it in the article as disputed and then wait for results.  Stepho  talk  22:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

They seem to have acknowledged the videos did not line up with the claims, they have explained it as a mixup in what videos were released and say they are planning to put out the video of the actual run. [4] Toasted Meter (talk) 07:41, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm confused as to whether or not the record is real. I'm not really sure what to believe right now so I was hoping someone who knows what the accurate sources are would point me in the right direction so I don't get mislead. Blaze Wolf &#124 Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 18:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

At this point we have a video that is inconsistent with the claims (SSC has admitted that) and a lack of independent confirmation. This situation could change, a video consistent with the claims could be revealed or an independent party could be given access to GPS data consistent with the claims, I don't think it should be written off yet but but more proof must be provided for anyone to take this as the truth. Toasted Meter (talk) 19:01, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Why is the SSC Tuatara "record" still allowed to stand? The run was not proven valid, so I am surprised. It should be removed unless the run can be proven valid, and obviously, it cannot. There has also been a very unsuccessful rerun. Time to remove. If there is a real record-breaking run, then that data can easily be inserted here. I think it is deceptive the way that run, by many seen as a deliberate attempt to deceive, is allowed to stand on the page, giving it quasi legitimacy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.89.113.169 (talk) 18:53, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

The SSC Tuatara "record" is not listed as standing. It is in the list of excluded records and clearly marked as disputed. This is what we do for prominent claims that are not borne out. If we remove all mention of them then some helpful soul feels compelled to add back in the obvious omission - and we then begin another round of repeated removal and reinsertion for a few more days with much groaning and gnashing of teeth. Instead, we put it in the bad boy box with clearly stated reasons why it is not in the good list.  Stepho  talk  20:46, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

How is the SSC Tuatara a PRODUCTION car? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.150.216.43 (talk • contribs)

According to https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35327947/ssc-tuatara-speed-record/ , "We've sold more cars since the last run," he says. "Probably not as many as we would have. But, yes." So it seems like they have sold some. And this time they did better recording and had other people/companies double check it.  Stepho  talk  21:46, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Articles based on comments not facts does not constitute a good reference for accuracy of an actual state or situation. There is no way of registering a "factory" built production car in the US without wing mirrors, closed crank case ventilation or airbags. Given this the Tuatara cannot - in its present form -constitute a production car. The car used for the record has only been seen with mfg plates (manufacturer) which can be used on any vehicle for testing - production car or not and the plate does not belong to the vehichle. There are three other ways of registering "new" cars in the US: 1. Home built kit cars. Requires an emission proven engine installation from another production car and the car is not allowed to be built in a car production factory on a car production line. Lots of simplifications are allowed from a safety perspective. 2. Register the car under the new Replica low volume regulation that is soon coming into effect. This regulation also requires a carry over - homologated - engine from a standard production car and that the car is approved to replicate a "classic" car model which is approved as a "classic" by the regulators. 3. Show or Display exemption - A car that is road legal in another country and that is exempted by NHTSA according to their approval list for eligible cars. The model also has to be out of production to be approved and proven to met the US emission regulations of the year of production. Those are all other options other than normal homologation and clearly none of these options suit the Tuatara - at all. Until there is a customer Tuatara that wears a license plate that is issued to the actual car itself - and that is not a mfg or dealer plate - there is simply no indication that the Tuatara is even close to be a "production car". It is as simple as that. Furthermore if simply a "registered road car" constitutes "a production car", then for example Johnny Boemers road registered (super tuned) 2005 Ford GT that ran much faster than the Tuatara, on the same stretch of tarmac, as the Tuatara used for its record, would be the "fastest production car in the world". Well that would be silly, as it does not any way anymore comply with road regulations, emission wise with its race cams, race injectors, aftermarket ecu, race exhaust and open crank case ventilation, actually all the same deviations to the regulations as the Tuatara show. Given the above the Tuatara needs to go back to the "non-approved" list of records - naturally. Sagenode (talk) 00:10, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

From the SSC Tuatara article, "The car uses a camera system instead of traditional side-view mirrors." So, no wing mirrors is not an issue.

Can you point to some proof that the record attempt car did not have closed-crank ventilation or airbags? Given the heightened awareness of the problems of the past run, they had many outsiders checking things over who were willing to report on issues like that.

Having manufacturer plates (or no plates) proves nothing either way. Small scale manufacturers usually don't report on numbers sold (especially when selling to the rich), so we have no information on how many cars were sold for many of the cars in this list.  Stepho  talk  01:08, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Physical wing mirrors are mandatory in the US - https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/nhtsa-side-mirror-camera-technology/ - So a car in the US caanot be registered without it unless it is an approved - out of production - show or display car with emission approval, like the McLaren Speedtail, for example. The ECU that Nelson Race engines use for its engine builds - Electromotive - does not support mandatory obdII, crank case ventilation control and their systems are only designed for "off-road" use. There is no mention in the Specifications of the Huayra on SSCs info page that it has airbags, something that naturally is stated by all manufacturers without exemption - if they have airbags. Secondly it is mandatory to mark out airbags with airbag texts on the airbag lids to inform and warn the users so they for example dont place child seats in harms way etc. So with certainty there is no crank case ventilation control (closed circuit) and no airbags in the tested or marketed car and for sure there are no wing mirrors. Sagenode (talk) 07:52, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Granted, side cameras are not yet legal in the US. Why does that make it illegal in other countries?

You have assumed that just because they are using Nelson for their engine, that they are using Nelson's favourite ECU for off-road racing. Nelson has plenty of ECU experience in general, so it would not be hard to see them using another, road-legal ECU. Even if they use an Electromotive ECU, it's not that hard to add OBD-II - it took me about 3 man months to add OBD-II for a CNG engine for Tata. ECU control of crankcase ventilation is practically trivial.

Looking at the SSC website, I find no mention of airbags. I also find no mention of air vents inside the cabin. But interior pictures show air vents and also show a nice bulge in the centre of the steering wheel where an air bag would be. To give an anecdotal example, US manufacturers in the 1950s didn't like to put seat belts in cars because it made the buyers think about crashes. Likewise, SSC might not want to point out features that come into play during a crash. Not advertising a feature is not the same thing as not having a feature.  Stepho  talk  11:42, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

The burden of proof rests with the one making the claim, obviously. It is not up to others to prove it is not a production car, it is up to them to show that it actually is a production car, and they can't. The SSC Tuatara is NOT a production car today. Aspirations and intentions alone do not make it so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.150.211.200 (talk) 11:54, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Would it be possible to discuss the SSC Tuatara instead of this incessant edit war?  DGrundler  talk  19:41, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Sure. Irrespective of the above discussion, I (as well as User:Toasted Meter) reverted the edits in question because the cited references do not support the claim that the Tuatara has been homologated via self-certification. The references include several news articles regarding the speed record and a website, which does not appear to meet WP:RS, merely mentioning the existence of the self-certification process. There is nothing in these references (nor others that I could readily find myself) that supports the Tuatara having been homologated yet, by self-certification or otherwise. IPBilly (talk) 19:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. I agree with your assessment and was leaning that way myself. Just trying to engage more folks in talk because this keeps going in circles.  DGrundler  talk  20:07, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Just for the record - EVO UK news stated in a 29 January 2021 article

the Tuatara attempting these speeds is said to be production-spec, and identical to the product delivered to customers. It is also wearing road-legal Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 and running on an E85 fuel blend, which is often used by other high-performance hypercar manufacturers, such as Koenigsegg, to increase engine performance.

which leaves open the question as to whether it was a proto-type or a production model. The article also says a number have been delivered to customers, but who knows what the specs were.

Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Super Sport

The Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Super Sport World Record Edition did 267 MPH, but only five World Record Editions were made. The regular Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Super Sport did 257 MPH and 30 were made. DrowsySpider200(talk) 5 April 2021

Not sure what the problem is - the article clearly makes the same point in the comment about the 2010 Veyron. Except it's 5 out of a total of 30 - ie 25 non world record Super Sports.

Please sign your comments with 4 tildes (~~~~) at the end.  Stepho  talk  16:31, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Bugatti SS 300+

The production version of the record setting car has the same horsepower, raised redline, taller 7th gear, aero & suspension. It should be shown as the record holder.

It should also be noted it was done at near sea level, with premium gasoline, not E85 unlike the Koenigsegg and SSC. Bugatti states the testing location advantage due to thinner air would have resulted in a 15mph faster run. 104.220.24.111 (talk) 22:47, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

If Bugatti has an independantly verified two way run in the production version maybe, otherwise it isn't the same version of the car and who knows what else they may have changed NealeWellington (talk) 07:36, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

1987 Buick Grand National/GNX

This was the fastest production car in 87 not the RUF CTR. The RUF isn't even a production car. RUF's are hand built highly customized Porsches NOT production vehicles. Please change this immediately. 2603:7080:C33A:3901:9132:A27D:F7C7:6016 (talk) 13:25, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this? Also, RUF's are considered production vehicles. "The company manufactures vehicles using unmarked Porsche chassis, specifically known as bodies in white. These vehicles are built from the ground up as completely new cars, using bare chassis, and assembled using Ruf-made parts and materials (e.g. BTR, CTR2, RT12), instead of badge engineering or disassembly of existing cars. This means the brand is officially recognized as a manufacturer by the German government. As such, all Ruf models have certified Ruf VIN and serial numbers, and are recognized as production models, rather than modified Porsches." taken from the page for Ruf Automobile with emphasis added. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 13:30, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

The GNX only goes to 200 km/h (124 mph), which is far, far short of the RUF CT2 342 km/h (213 mph). Even my worn out old 1975 Ford Falcon 5.0 V8 hardtop (very similar to a 1973 Mustang) could get to 200 km/h while leaving twin contrails of self defensive smoke cover. Admittedly, the GNX had a speed limiter and a lack of suitable tyres - but that's its listed top speed. See https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a25623/first-look-flashback-1987-buick-gnx/  Stepho  talk  08:18, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

I like the self-defensive contrails - must get them for ancient Mitsi Lancer NealeWellington (talk) 23:17, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Chiron SS 300+

"Bugatti Chiron Super Sport 300+ (pre-production prototype) 490.48 km/h (304.77 mph)"

So how fast does the production version go? Esteban Outeiral Dias (talk) 11:37, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

A good question - no road test to date.NealeWellington (talk) 23:22, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Independent measurement?

In the section "top speed measurement" it's written that "the measurement must be done independently". And in fact it is just the opposite. An independent measurement is carried out by the manufacturer itself, such as the Dauer 962 LM in 1998, carried out by the VW group, which helped to develop the car, and therefore, it is not endowed with reliability. 177.91.76.194 (talk) 00:31, 20 August 2022 (UTC)