User talk:Piotrus
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Hi! As you are probably aware, I have edited the article Venus in fiction a fair bit over the course of the last few months since the FAC closed in late October. I've tried to address the issues brought up by me and Espresso Addict in the FAC in preparation for renomination. I've reached out to Espresso Addict to ask them to take a look, but I see that their most recent edit was back in late November, so they might not reply in the near future. I was thinking that perhaps we could be co-nominators. What do you think? TompaDompa (talk) 15:29, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- @TompaDompa Impressive progress, I certainly would support a renomination. Do let me know how can I be of assistance. Btw, I'd nitpick the super rare word filmatized, maybe reword this? Also, a quick glance shows we lost mentions of Cowboy Bebop and Pathfinders to Venus? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I changed "filmatized" to "adapted to film". I couldn't find a good spot to include Cowboy Bebop and Pathfinders to Venus, but anime and television are at least represented in the article by Venus Wars and Tom Corbett, Space Cadet, respectively. TompaDompa (talk) 15:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- @TompaDompa See, that's the problem of restructuring that removed 'by media'. I'll think about how to restore the mention of these works; I think mentioning them is valuable to the reader. I'll also see what else went missing, I noticed the Venusian sidekick example (Tommy Tommorrow's) is gone too. I don't mind the restructuring, but the examples (information) should not be lost. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:03, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I've tried to make the examples serve the analysis, rather than including them just because they exist. There are way more works featuring Venus than we can reasonably include without turning this into what is functionally a list of examples. I've re-added Lon Vurian as an example of a basically-human Venusian. TompaDompa (talk) 16:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Found a way to include Pathfinders to Venus. TompaDompa (talk) 16:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I gave including Cowboy Bebop a shot. It's not ideal since Anime News Network is not a great source, but it should be reliable enough for basic plot details. Take a look and see what you think. TompaDompa (talk) 20:46, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, that's all great. Note that I believe that if a work, any work, is worth mentioning in any reliable reference work, in particular, one that is about Venus in fiction, I think it should be discussed in the article. Here are my other thoughts:
- a mention of some of the most prominent authors, if not works, in the lead, would be good
- general comment: WP:RED is good, but assuming all works are notable, even essays and short stories, I am unsure about.
- I see you shortened the chronological listing of earliest works, most are mentioned later. I am not sure if this shortening is good - the earlier version collected in one place some of the earlierst works in the genre, which might be of interest to some readers. I refer to the second paragraph in 'Early depictions: exotic tropics' in the version linked below
- works which were mentioned in this version but aren't in our current one:
- Clifford D. Simak ("Hunger Death", 1938)
- Campbell's "The Black Star Passes" (1930)
- A. E. van Vogt's The World of Null-A (1949)
- Simak's "Rim of the Deep" (1940)
- Asimov's Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus (1954) is no longer mentioned in the Ocean... section, despite the obvious relevance of the title (it is mentioned elsewhere).
- Bradury's "All Summer in a Day" (1954) was removed, and it even had some description of the story. If this is because it didn't mention jungle and swamps, this can be easily remedied by being moved to the paragraph about "A common assumption was that the Venusian clouds were made of water".
- Heinlein's Between Planets was removed from the sentence about "Robert A. Heinlein portrayed Venusian swamps in several unrelated stories " (it is mentioned elsewhere in the article)
- mention of Anderson's "The Big Rain" (1954) which revolves around an attempt to bring about rain on a desert Venus was removed from the Desert section (it is mentioned in the terraforming). Again, if a work is relevant here and there, I think it should be mentioned in both; with the first mention providing more detail and second, being just a mention. WP:NOTPAPER, however.
- Robert Sheckley's "Prospector Planet" (1959) also gone from that section, not mentioned anywhere else
- Dean McLaughlin's The Fury from Earth (1963) ditto
- Bob Buckley's "Chimera" (1976) is gone entirely and Pearce and Bova's examples are removed from the list of examples of hard environment works where Chimera was present
- example of Kuttner's Fury is no longer present in the terraforming section
- removed example: "while Marvel Comic's Sub-Mariner defended Earth from an invasion by amphibious Venusians"
- removed another example: The Green Lantern story "Summons from Space" (1959) feature the heroes protecting human-like inhabitants of Venus from the dinosaurs - which could totally fit in the place we discuss dinosaurs on Venus
- removed "In addition to original comic plotlines, classic works such as Burroughs' stories featuring Carson Napier, the protagonist of the Pirates of Venus series, were published by DC Comics in the 1970s, and Dark Horse Comics in the 1990s." This could be mentioned somewhere in shortened version, where we discuss Burrough's stories, noting that they also received comic book adaptations (or this entire sentence could be copied to article about his works/series I guess).
- you removed the mention of "Treatments described sometimes as more "cerebral" or "mainline" included", which served to show that there were "more serious" works in addition to the pulp sword-and-planet/planetary romance
- this sentence was removed: "While individual visits tend to be peaceful, some authors have depicted large scale conflicts, including warfare, between Venusians and humans (or in some cases, Martians)" and only partially rewritten as "Visits like this are typically peaceful and for the enlightenment of humanity. Occasionally, Venusians come to Earth intent on conquering it, as in". I thought you like examples - why remove mention of warfare, including conflict with Mars?
- gone is " Venusians invade Earth in Target Earth! (1954)", why? Totally could be another example for the invasion part, discussed above
- last missing example: " a flight to Venus is also featured in Doomsday Machine (1972)."
- you removed the sentence "While the earliest works about Venus tended to be written in French or English, science fiction writers from other countries also tackled this topic" although I am prepared to entertain that this was a bit ORish and probably represents my annoyance/bias on such topics being heavily anglo-centric... (I know, I know, we are limited to what is in the sources and these are biased in coverage)
- PS. I suggest moving (copying) our discussion to Talk:Venus in fiction, so that future historians (:>) studying the development of this article can find it more easily... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:57, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- Right. I'll copy the above to Talk:Venus in fiction and reply there henceforth. TompaDompa (talk) 18:05, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, that's all great. Note that I believe that if a work, any work, is worth mentioning in any reliable reference work, in particular, one that is about Venus in fiction, I think it should be discussed in the article. Here are my other thoughts:
- I gave including Cowboy Bebop a shot. It's not ideal since Anime News Network is not a great source, but it should be reliable enough for basic plot details. Take a look and see what you think. TompaDompa (talk) 20:46, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Found a way to include Pathfinders to Venus. TompaDompa (talk) 16:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I've tried to make the examples serve the analysis, rather than including them just because they exist. There are way more works featuring Venus than we can reasonably include without turning this into what is functionally a list of examples. I've re-added Lon Vurian as an example of a basically-human Venusian. TompaDompa (talk) 16:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- @TompaDompa See, that's the problem of restructuring that removed 'by media'. I'll think about how to restore the mention of these works; I think mentioning them is valuable to the reader. I'll also see what else went missing, I noticed the Venusian sidekick example (Tommy Tommorrow's) is gone too. I don't mind the restructuring, but the examples (information) should not be lost. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:03, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I changed "filmatized" to "adapted to film". I couldn't find a good spot to include Cowboy Bebop and Pathfinders to Venus, but anime and television are at least represented in the article by Venus Wars and Tom Corbett, Space Cadet, respectively. TompaDompa (talk) 15:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
The Bugle: Issue 201, January 2023
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DYK nomination of Freedom & Civilization
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Nomination of Krakoa for deletion
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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. Nekivik (talk) 04:55, 12 January 2023 (UTC)