Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Al Yasmina School

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) →B music ian 12:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Al Yasmina School

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I proposed this article for deletion due to the following reason: "Not notable. Whether in the article, nor through research could I find any bit of information which would make this school notable." User:Phil_Bridger contested it ("contest deletion - verifiable secondary/high schools are generally accepted as notable)." I still do not believe this article belongs here, and I do not believe any high-school is "generally accepted as notable." According to Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies), "A (...) school,(...) is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject. A single independent source is almost never sufficient for demonstrating the notability of an organization." Expectans (talk) 13:47, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 16:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Arab Emirates-related deletion discussions. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. It's a high school. We keep high schools. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 21:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note:: There is no official rule about we keeping high-school articles. Expectans (talk) 21:51, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But there is an "official rule" about us not requiring official rules. For years our practice has invariably been to keep articles on verifiable high schools, as documented at WP:OUTCOMES#Schools. You can check the individual deletion discussions at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Schools/archive. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:18, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see that most, but not all, articles about schools are kept. But, we don't have to join this tendency, do we? I honestly don't see any value in this specific article. Expectans (talk) 23:22, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The ones that are not kept are either below high school level or are unverified. Consensus is well established that articles on verified high schools are kept. What is it about this particular school that makes you think that it should be an exception? Phil Bridger (talk) 23:28, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What makes you think that we have to follow this unwritten rule of keeping all high-schools instead of taking a look at Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies) and deciding if we keep this concrete article? Expectans (talk) 23:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Probably the many 100s of school AfD closed as keep over many years, and 1000s of words of perennial discussion on the subject. I agree entirely with Phil. I have left a message on your talk page. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:34, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Standard wikiproject-schools longstanding policy by concensus - It is a high school = Keep, no further discussion necessary 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 02:24, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Standard wikiproject-schools longstanding policy by concensus supported by 100s of 'Keep' closures. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:34, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question: can someone point to any reasonable argument about why high-school pages are kept? The tendency is clear to me, but is there really a rational reason that it's not "all others are doing it?" Expectans (talk) 10:57, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete There is NO presumption of notability for high schools -- the presumption is that schools would probably have sufficient coverage to demonstrate notability. If there is no such coverage, there is no notability. ukexpat (talk) 13:17, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What checks have you made to enable you to be so confident that the presumption that coverage exists is false? Have you, for example, looked for sources in Arabic? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:17, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If someone has a source, he's free to cite it, but we cannot assume that it exists. Expectans (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes we can. Ukexpat stated that there is a presumption that schools would probably have sufficient coverage to demonstrate notability (which I would qualify to say "secondary/high schools" rather than just "schools"). The meaning of the word "presumption" is that we proceed on that basis unless evidence is presented contradicting it. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:01, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - one of few schools in Abu Dhabi that we have an article on and there is no evidence adduced that any sort of local search has been carried out for sources. What search for Arabic sources has been carried out? Experience shows that high schools generally meet WP:ORG and there is no reason to believe that this one cannot. Deletion would be a clear breach of WP:BIAS. TerriersFan (talk) 15:49, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep something. There are problems here. A lot of this is not referenced or very well written but we do have an independent reference to verify that the school is a real school and the school's own site confirms that it is a secondary (i.e. high) school. I think that is pretty much all we need to keep at least a stub. I think it is about time that we did set the "high school = keep" rule in stone to avoid these misunderstandings. As far as I am concerned if the country's education regulation/licensing body recognises a school as a genuine full-time high school (and not, say, an evening tuition college, summer camp or whatever) then we call that notable. We need to beware of double standards here. Would we even be having an AfD on this if it was a school in the USA or UK? --DanielRigal (talk) 17:01, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The status quo is here: "No company or organization is considered inherently notable. No organization is exempt from this requirement, no matter what kind of organization it is." What is happening with the "keep all high schools" movement is an anomaly. No rule like that can be set in stone, since it goes against more basic rules. And yes, I would have submitted the AfD if this school were from the US or UK. (Note: incidentally, this is a British school). Expectans (talk) 17:06, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a British school. It just happens to teach a British curriculum. If this were a British high school it would have links to its Ofsted listing and its entries in various league tables. This would convince many people of its notability although their existence is automatic for a genuine British high school. I don't think anybody sets out intending to apply a double standard. My point is that it is easily done unintentionally. I don't see any way to delete this without declaring war on high school articles in general. Even as a deletionist myself, this seems a pointless use of our time. In my view the best way to deal with a high school that provably exists but has little further notability is to make a stub of it. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:26, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, making a stub out of it sounds like a nice alternative. At least we could get rid of things like "To begin with the head of the secondary was Mr. Malone" and "their are different teachers for different subjects in the secondary school." Expectans (talk) 17:31, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's what the edit tab in the article is for, although I would advise against removing the name of the first head teacher, as that's the kind of uncontroversial factual content that can perfectly reasonably be sourced to the school's own web site. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article may not be perfect, but verification of its existence should be all that is necessary for that level of formal education, it functions both as primary and secondary. If this article is going to be a tipping point in the 'we keep high schools' argument, please take it elsewhere and notify me of this discussion, because educational institutions, small or large, serve a civic duty and are typically not the subject of advertising. They serve as an institution like a library, historic site, memorial, or monument, which are not themselves notable, but are important for the surrounding community and the thousands of lives they impact. If we are going to deal out 'notabilities' the function and purpose served are important on the local and regional level. Wikipedia has a unique search function where no limit of articles or 'importance' need be defined, to say that any civic structure with such status is a false call to delete something which can simply be ignored if it bothers an individual. Too often notable articles are deleted under the simple claim of 'not-notable' in complete lack of 'on-the-ground' or 'in-depth search' of materials related to it. Typically if it cannot be found on the net, kiss it goodbye, this school no doubt plays a key role in educating the youth from beginning to end of their schooling. It is no wonder the 'we keep high schools' matter came about, there is simply no reason to call for its deletion, the article could easily be fixed up instead. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:50, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Consensus is that we keep verified secondary schools. -- Necrothesp (talk) 18:54, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.