Talk:Banderite

Request for comment; should this Wikipedia article have biographical information about Stepan Bandera

The consensus is to retain this information. GenQuest's comment is representative of the consensus: "Stand-alone articles do indeed need enough background information about the main player(s) to get oriented and understand the situation and origins of the article subject matter."

Cunard (talk) 22:13, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I (Yulia Romero) and Poeticbent are currently embroiled in a dispute about this Wikipedia article. Per Wikipedia:CFORK I believe that it should not contain any biographical information about Stepan Bandera. Poeticbent (it seems to me) believes that this article should contain any biographical information Bandera because "none of this information - strictly about Banderites history - is in the Bandera article". I think that Poeticbent should insert this information in the article about Mr. Bandera or discuss this on the talkpage there. Basically want to know if the current (Saturday 17 February 2018) "History section at Banderites is content forking or not. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:24, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• Clearly, there's a major case of misunderstanding here with regard to what a stand alone article in Wikipedia is. There's no repetition of Bandera's biography here, just the explanation of the background to Banderites' name and purpose. Poeticbent talk 19:01, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

In the current "history" section of this Wikipedia article there is no extra information that was not already in the article about the "explanation of the background to Banderites' name and purpose" but only biographical information about Stepan Bandera (which should only be in the Wikipedia article of this person). Poeticbent defence here above is a pack of lies. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:15, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

The only "explanation of the background to Banderites' name and purpose" in current "history" section is already mentioned in the lead of this article (The term Banderites was also used by the Bandera followers themselves, and by others during the Holocaust by bullets, and the massacres of Poles and Jews in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia by OUN-UPA in 1943–1944.). Actually the crimes of Bandera's followers is mentioned in the lead of this article two times. What is the point of mentioning it three times surrounded by biographical information about the person Bandera? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:28, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Does Poeticbent objects to me, or preferable another editor, removing all biographical information about the person Bandera from the current "history" section? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:33, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• Whoa ... "pack of lies", you said. Slow down, will you? I do not actually believe in the neutrality of your revert war at the Banderites article. Being an active Ukrainian Wikpedian interested in the Svoboda and the Right Sector coverage in Wikipedia, you blanked the history of the Banderite movement, along with reliable third party peer-reviewed sources, but why? — Is that because that history included information about the spread of antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians by the Bandera faction? Poeticbent talk 19:42, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

You yourself blanked the history along with reliable third party peer-reviewed sources about crimes committed by Poles in the second world war. Apparently you don't believe in the policy Wikipedia:Assume good faith. I never made one edit aimed at promoting Svoboda and Right Sector. Unlike you who tried to whitewash Polish crimes with this edit. Please show me the edits in which I promote Svoboda and the Right Sector. I only edit the articles Svoboda and the Right Sector to keep them wp:NPOV.

And do you or don't you agree that the current "history" section contains biographical information about the person Bandera? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:13, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

PS I did not edit Right Sector for more then 1 year and it has been more than 2 years I edited Svoboda.... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:27, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• Include I agree with Poeticbent; there's no good reason that info isn't included here. Otherwise, the entire article may as well be merged back into the article about Bandera where discretionary sanctions apply. Yulia Romero is clearly a Ukrainian nationalist and I think her partisanship has clouded her objectivity; I don't think she should edit in this space, at all. (Summoned by bot) Chris Troutman (talk) 04:59, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Just so you know, Yulia Romero user is a male contributor. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 07:23, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

• Include Have to agree with Poeticbent (talk · contribs) on this one. Stand-alone articles do indeed need enough background information about the main player(s) to get oriented and understand the situation and origins of the article subject matter. A separate article about the subject is not hurt by that, and the current article is improved by the inclusion. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 10:23, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

groundless accusations

The article is written with groundless accusations based on some writing of dubious people and were never proved in courtroom. Banderites is not a Ukrainian word, but rather is an adaptation. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

This article is written on reliable sources and WP does not use court decisions as sole source of sources. Banderite is an English word. 78.34.220.223 (talk) 09:02, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

pejoratively

Banderites as a pejorative term is being attempted to be established by some Polish chauvinists. In Ukraine, Banderites, is not a pejorative term and possibly never will be. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 22:01, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Banderites means people who associate themselves with propaganda and movement created or associated with Stephan [Bandera], like "marxist" and is a person, which follows Karl [Marx] propaganda. 78.34.220.223 (talk) 09:05, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

defamation attempt

The whole article is written with the purpose to lay an insult on Ukrainian people who follow Bandera's view on establishment of the free state of Ukraine. The article fails to disclose the real reasons for such complicated relations between Polish and Ukrainian people. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 22:05, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

The article is written to describe the "Banderovets" movement, which is currently on uprise in Ukraine. See "Я бандеровец" in www search engine. 78.34.220.223 (talk) 09:15, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Among such "Banderites" is Dmytro Pavlychko who was imprisoned for being a member of Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 22:18, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

And? UPA is a far-right misanthropic anti-semitic organization that is considered as terrorist for the crimes against civil population and is prohibited in many countries. Still, one of its founders - Andriy Melnyk is founder of Ukrainian World Congress, which shares the same goals as People's Movement of Ukraine, founded by Pavlychko; which provides possibility that Pavlychko was related to/sympathized UPA. 78.34.220.223 (talk) 09:15, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

He's a Nazi sympathizer, plain and simple. Idontknowanythingok (talk) 19:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Low-quality article

While most of the crimes attributed to OUN/UPA are true, this is a complex topic and the biggest challenge is the actual attribution of inspiration for these crimes to Bandera himself. This article however is a completely ahistorical mess, a mix of low-quality sources with clearly visible bias and a desperate attempt to attribute all OUN-UPA crimes to Bandera, while ignoring the simple fact that Bandera himself was arrested by Germans and spent most of the war isolated in a concentration camp. This topic is well explored in Wikipedia articles on OUN-B and I believe this article should not repeat whatever is written there already with much more reliable sources, and if there's any reason for it to stay is to focus purely on the meaning of the banderites term, its usage during the war and nowadays. Cloud200 (talk) 09:33, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

RFC about changing of the article topic

Should we change the topic of the article to the propaganda term or keep it to the Ukrainian right-wing organizations from the interwar period until present? Alex Bakharev (talk) 23:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

There was a suggestion by a few recent editors to change the topic of the article from describing the "members of an assortment of right-wing organizations" to describing the propaganda term. Please discuss. When any consensus is reached please ask for unprotection of the page. In this case the article may look like this version Alex Bakharev (talk) 11:01, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Not much activities yet. I am thinking that changing the topic of the article is a good idea. Currently it looks like a low quality WP:POVFORK of Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. Changing the topic to the propaganda term would make it useful. Alternatively the article can be about Ukrainian right-wing and nationalist organizations from the inter-war time to modern days. But in this case the current content including the title is very biased. Any other ideas? Alex Bakharev (talk) 23:17, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

The problem with this article is that in current form its title clearly does not match the content. Instead of describing the term the article tells about the history of the OUN (b), in a form that raises many questions about its objectivity, as we can see above. I believe that whole the article should be rewritten in the format that was originally conceived: 1. Description of origin of the term. 2. The history of its usage from the moment of its creation to our time - both in the nationalist and propaganda sense. That is, to develop the article for what it was intended for. All off-topic questions should be left for other relevant articles. The old version [1] looks like it's more suitable for such purpose Alexx Cognac (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

(invited by the bot) You are going to have to more thoroughly describe the question in order to get real outside feedback. One of the choices is changing the topic to "the propaganda term" but the meaning of that that is not explained in the RFC or even in the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@North8000: mean do we want to develop article based on This version (about the colloquial name or That version (about organizations) Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Sounds like an improvement. I’d suggest moving to “banderite,” as a common noun, and don’t forget an article is typically about a thing, not about a name (I can’t find that perfect guideline to quote at the moment). —Michael Z. 15:10, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The content could be filled out a bit with Kolomoiskyi’s 2014 “Zhidobandera” trolling and the 2019 “I am Bandera” campaign, if anyone can find a decent article or two. Also mention variants banderas, banderlogs (is bandе́rovtsy actually Ukrainian, as stated in the current intro?). —Michael Z. 15:19, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't have the expertise to know for sure, but at first glance the current article appears to have horrendous NPOV problems. As I understand it, the term refers to many different groups and them and their activities over nearly a century of history. At first glance, the current article looks a search/selection for the worst things that any of them ever did ever and then describing / characterizing them characterizing them based on that selective selection. The This version described as being about the colloquial name option seems better in that respect but has a lot less content.North8000 (talk) 16:18, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose changing the article from its current historical discussion of the Banderites. Banderites are clearly a historical group, that are being referred to by the police in the Ukraine. We need an article on the historical reference to Banderites to understand the modern usage. If anything, we could do a section within this article discussing *modern usage*, or if its worth it a separate article on the current movement. Deathlibrarian (talk) 10:52, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
• Keep the current scope of the page. I agree with Deathlibrarian that it needs to be a narrowly defined historical subject, as described in the body of the page. However, it does not hurt to also mention the usage as a propaganda term. The lead should be modified accordingly. My very best wishes (talk) 19:08, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Deathlibrarian. Idealigic (talk) 06:20, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support deleting article or restoring the version about the name) (Also brought here by bot): I also don't know much about this topic, but the current article seems like it would belong better either as part of the OUN or Bandera article and has significant NPOV problems. Even if it becomes about the modern and historical usage of the term, why would that not fit better in a general article about the Ukrainian far-right? Hentheden (talk) 23:42, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Keep it the way it is! It's not "propaganda", banderists were and are a real thing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.97.248.215 (talk) 02:30, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Keep - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:46, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Генеральна рада «Загону Червона калина» в Академічному домі у Львові, 21 жовтня 1928 року.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Attempted lies

This is the question of why, according to the author of this article, the term "Bandera" began to be used as propaganda in the Soviet Union, and not when, but in 1942.

Question: where could this propaganda be conducted? Why should it be conducted in a multinational state, where one careless decision could lead to the collapse of the state? 85.95.189.210 (talk) 22:46, 24 December 2022 (UTC)