Wikipedia:Featured article review/CMLL World Heavyweight Championship/archive1
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- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was delisted by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 3:42, 8 July 2023 (UTC) [1].
- Notified: MPJ-DK, Ribbon Salminen, JDC808, WP Mexico, WP Professional wrestling, noticed on 2023-03-01
Review section
[edit]Shouldn't be too hard to fix up if someone is familiar with wrestling and speaks Spanish, but that person is not me, and the primary author has made one edit since 2020. Compare to List of CMLL World Heavyweight Champions, which indicates that there has been one vacancy and three separate title holders since the last point the article body reflects. Hog Farm Talk 20:05, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I have updated the history section with 3 champions (ultimo, hechicero and gran). I didn't find any tournament for the title, so the tournament section doesn't need any update. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll try to take a look soon (and to double-check to make sure I can't find any sort of tournament either), but I'll be out of town for work all of next week and will have limited editing ability. Hog Farm Talk 13:26, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Google translate on the Spanish suggests some form of tournament-type things between El Terrible, Ultimo Guerrero, Rush, and Diamente Azul? With Azul > Terrible, Rush being DQ'd, and then Guerrero beating Azul? Hog Farm Talk 15:46, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Since I speak Spanish, I'll look in when some improvements are (hopefully) further along. A LOT of checking will be needed here. I'm not finding anything at the Solowrestling.com About page that speaks to staff, fact checking and other measures of reliability, so perhaps someone can weigh in on that for starters. There are copyedit needs, and we have a current champion (MOS:CURRENT) in 2018 cited to 2017. So there is quite a bit of work to be done here before I even start checking for copyright or source-to-text integrity on Spanish sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made several copy-edits throughout including updating the current champion, which was the most glaring mistake that I saw as the current champion was mentioned in four different places but only two of them matched (and those two were actually correct). Also did a slight reorder, putting the Reigns section last based on WP:PW's style guide for championship articles. --JDC808 ♫ 01:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- JDC808 is it your intent to restore this to featured status? If so, work remains; please let this page know before I spend time checking Spanish sources. (I already see problems in the first sentence ... The CMLL World Heavyweight Championship (Spanish: Campeonato Mundial de Peso Completo del CMLL) is a men's professional wrestling world heavyweight championship created and promoted by the Mexican (lucha libre) promotion Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre (CMLL) ... lucha libre is stuck in randomly in parentheses without telling the reader what it means. Promoted by a promotion. MOS:CURRENT undefined date in the lead. Languages are handled inconsistently throughout; sometimes names are given in English and translated to Spanish; other times the opposite. Prose infelicities, vagueness and redundancies abound (eg, "In the late 1980s, EMLL left the NWA to avoid their politics and would later rebrand themselves as "Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre" (CMLL). Although they had left the NWA, they were still promoting the NWA's titles."). This article looks quite far off the mark for FA standards, and I don't want to start checking sources unless more effort is made first. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Another sample of inconsistent translations/use of language ... torneo cibernetico SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:29, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- SandyGeorgia, I don't want to see the article demoted, but it wasn't my intent to fully take on the burden of trying to restore its status. I was originally a reviewer for its FAC nomination a few years ago, which is why I assume I got notified about this FAR. I saw some issues and fixed them as noted in my previous post. Even if I wanted to try and put in the effort to restore the article, I don't speak Spanish so it would be hard for me to try to do so. --JDC808 ♫ 09:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the feedback. Looking at the FAC, it's not obvious that anyone ever checked the Spanish-language sources. The MOS:CURRENT problem was in the lead at the time of promotion, but at least we no longer have to wonder what an "overall person" is. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:00, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- SandyGeorgia, I don't want to see the article demoted, but it wasn't my intent to fully take on the burden of trying to restore its status. I was originally a reviewer for its FAC nomination a few years ago, which is why I assume I got notified about this FAR. I saw some issues and fixed them as noted in my previous post. Even if I wanted to try and put in the effort to restore the article, I don't speak Spanish so it would be hard for me to try to do so. --JDC808 ♫ 09:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made several copy-edits throughout including updating the current champion, which was the most glaring mistake that I saw as the current champion was mentioned in four different places but only two of them matched (and those two were actually correct). Also did a slight reorder, putting the Reigns section last based on WP:PW's style guide for championship articles. --JDC808 ♫ 01:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Since I speak Spanish, I'll look in when some improvements are (hopefully) further along. A LOT of checking will be needed here. I'm not finding anything at the Solowrestling.com About page that speaks to staff, fact checking and other measures of reliability, so perhaps someone can weigh in on that for starters. There are copyedit needs, and we have a current champion (MOS:CURRENT) in 2018 cited to 2017. So there is quite a bit of work to be done here before I even start checking for copyright or source-to-text integrity on Spanish sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Google translate on the Spanish suggests some form of tournament-type things between El Terrible, Ultimo Guerrero, Rush, and Diamente Azul? With Azul > Terrible, Rush being DQ'd, and then Guerrero beating Azul? Hog Farm Talk 15:46, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll try to take a look soon (and to double-check to make sure I can't find any sort of tournament either), but I'll be out of town for work all of next week and will have limited editing ability. Hog Farm Talk 13:26, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Move to FARC; the prose is not up to FA standards, the FAC was promoted on incomplete (2 1/2) supports (with issues in the lead) and it doesn't appear anyone is willing to rework the article. (If they do, I'll start reading Spanish sources.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:00, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- PS, looking through the FAC nominators other promotions, I am unable to find that a source spotcheck was ever done (only reference formatting and some reliability). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:34, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of the article is cited to:
- Duncan, Royal; Will, Gary (2000). Wrestling title histories: professional wrestling champions around the world from the 19th century to the present. Waterloo, ON: Archeus Communications. ISBN 0-9698161-5-4.
- As a source spotcheck on the FAC nominator was never done, does anyone have access to this book? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:38, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Duncan, Royal; Will, Gary (2000). Wrestling title histories: professional wrestling champions around the world from the 19th century to the present. Waterloo, ON: Archeus Communications. ISBN 0-9698161-5-4.
- What makes cagematch.net a high quality or reliable source? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes wrestling-titles.com a reliable or high quality source? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- This Superluchas.com source is a dead link that archive.org does not have. I cannot find an "about" page at https://superluchas.com/ ... what makes it high quality or reliable? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:48, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Verification needed:
- On April 2, 2009, Último Guerrero successfully defended the title against Rey Mendoza Jr. on an independent wrestling promotion show in Gomez Palacio, marking the first time the CMLL World Heavyweight Championship was defended on a non-CMLL promoted show.[o]
- I cannot find anything to support this "first time" claim in the source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- On April 2, 2009, Último Guerrero successfully defended the title against Rey Mendoza Jr. on an independent wrestling promotion show in Gomez Palacio, marking the first time the CMLL World Heavyweight Championship was defended on a non-CMLL promoted show.[o]
- This source has a faulty trans-title (so it's unclear if the original writer translates Spanish accurately):
- Ruiz Glez, Alex (November 12, 2011). Ocampo, Ernesto (ed.). "Héctor Garza deja el CMLL, se une con los Perros del Mal" [Héctor Garza out of CMLL, is a member of los Perros del Mal]. Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. ISSN 1665-8876. Retrieved November 12, 2011.
- A more accurate trans-title would have him leaving and joining. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:07, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Ruiz Glez, Alex (November 12, 2011). Ocampo, Ernesto (ed.). "Héctor Garza deja el CMLL, se une con los Perros del Mal" [Héctor Garza out of CMLL, is a member of los Perros del Mal]. Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. ISSN 1665-8876. Retrieved November 12, 2011.
- What makes prowrestlinghistory.com high quality or reliable (has the appearance of a personal website)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes wrestlingdata.com high quality or reliable? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:12, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Failed verification:
- The championship is designated as a heavyweight title, which means that it can only be officially competed for by wrestlers weighing 105 kg (231 lb) and above. In the 20th century, Mexican wrestling enforced the weight divisions more strictly, but in the 21st century, the rules have been occasionally ignored for the various weight divisions. The Heavyweight Championship was no exception as several champions were under the weight limit, including Héctor Garza, who was billed as weighing 95 kg (209 lb) when he won the championship and was thus considered a Junior Light Heavyweight.[v][w]
- I can't find any mention of 105 at [v], and [w] is not online and is an incomplete citation. The entire bit looks like original research. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:18, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- The championship is designated as a heavyweight title, which means that it can only be officially competed for by wrestlers weighing 105 kg (231 lb) and above. In the 20th century, Mexican wrestling enforced the weight divisions more strictly, but in the 21st century, the rules have been occasionally ignored for the various weight divisions. The Heavyweight Championship was no exception as several champions were under the weight limit, including Héctor Garza, who was billed as weighing 95 kg (209 lb) when he won the championship and was thus considered a Junior Light Heavyweight.[v][w]
- Sample problem (there are others similar):
- On December 22, 2008, Último Guerrero won the championship from Dos Caras Jr., who shortly afterwards left CMLL to work for WWE.
- Cited as: [n] "El Ultimo Guerrero se coronó ayer en la ciudad de Puebla, gracias a un foul tras la distracción del referee por parte de Rey Bucanero, con esto, los Bucanero y Guerrero tienen los dos principales títulos del CMLL (semicompleto y completo)" ("Último Guerrero was crowned yesterday in Puebla, thanks to a foul after the referee was distracted by Rey Bucanero, with this, Bucanero and Guerrero have the two main titles of the CMLL (light heavyweight and Heavyweight)")[2]
- Reliability of superluchas?
- Dead url not available at archive.org, and the quote supplied from the source says nothing about "who shortly afterwards left CMLL to work for WWE". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:45, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Cited as: [n] "El Ultimo Guerrero se coronó ayer en la ciudad de Puebla, gracias a un foul tras la distracción del referee por parte de Rey Bucanero, con esto, los Bucanero y Guerrero tienen los dos principales títulos del CMLL (semicompleto y completo)" ("Último Guerrero was crowned yesterday in Puebla, thanks to a foul after the referee was distracted by Rey Bucanero, with this, Bucanero and Guerrero have the two main titles of the CMLL (light heavyweight and Heavyweight)")[2]
- On December 22, 2008, Último Guerrero won the championship from Dos Caras Jr., who shortly afterwards left CMLL to work for WWE.
- Generally, why are translations provided as notes (awkward) rather than using the quote= parameter? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:45, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Generally, one of the superluchas dead URLs are available at archive.org, so with problems already found, all of these are suspect. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Howstuffworks as a high quality source? I can find nothing to indicate that Ed Grabianowski meets WP:SPS.
That's enough for now; I don't understand what FAC was doing here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Move to FARC - prowrestlinghistory, cagematch, wrestlingtitles, and wrestlingdata all are listed as "unproven" at WP:PW/RS, so it seems quite unlikely they would be the high-quality RS required by the featured article criteria. Significant work is needed here with the sourcing. Hog Farm Talk 02:21, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FARC section
[edit]- Sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:32, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - unresolved sourcing issues. Hog Farm Talk 15:26, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, major work needed to salvage this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:49, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist no major edits in several months, sourcing concerns remain. Z1720 (talk) 19:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This removal candidate has been delisted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:42, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.