Wikipedia talk:Categorization

See also: Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Categories

Sorting band names of the sort "Personalname Surname and the Things"

My instinct is that when you have an example like "Gladys Knight & the Pips" to sort it under "G", as I think of the band name like a title of a legal fiction or persons doing business as some name. As of this writing, an example of this is at The Alan Parsons Project, we have the sort key {{DEFAULTSORT:Alan Parsons Project, The}}. But, in the example I gave at the beginning, they are presently sorted {{DEFAULTSORT:Knight, Gladys and the Pips}} and Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers is sorted {{DEFAULTSORT:Petty and the Heartbreakers, Tom}}. On the other hand, Ben Folds Five has no sortkey, so it's under "B". I searched this page and its archives and I don't see discussion of how we want to handle this. See, e.g. this example on StackExchange if I'm not explaining myself: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/361423/alphabetizing-band-names-when-the-name-includes-a-members-name. Thoughts? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:27, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Individual people are sorted by lastname, firstname; but bands are not individual people, they are more akin to organisations. Consider Jethro Tull (band): this is a band named after a real person, but that person was never a band member, nor indeed a musician (as far as we know). The above examples should be sorted as follows:

• Gladys Knight and the Pips
• Alan Parsons Project, The
• Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers

These exhibit two adjustments: (i) to expand the ampersand to the word that it represents; (ii) to move the leading article to the end. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:27, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Is this documented anywhere in our MoS or other guideline/policy pages? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:46, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Sortkey | ]], |*]], or |+]]?

Hi, I'd like to know what the difference is between sortkeys | ]], |*]], and |+]]. WP:SORTKEY does not explain the function or usage of |+]].
Why is it, for example, Category:Monarchs in Asia sorted like this?:

• Category:Monarchs in Asia by century sortkey | ]]
• Category:Lists of monarchs in Asia‎ sortkey |*]]
• Category:Child monarchs from Asia‎ sortkey |*]]
• Category:Kings in Asia‎ sortkey |*]]
• Category:Middle Eastern monarchs |+]]

I've just given Category:Women monarchs in Asia the sortkey |+]], but actually I have no idea whether that is correct or incorrect. Shouldn't it be |*]], for example? And why is Category:Middle Eastern monarchs given the sortkey |+]]? Could somebody please explain? Thanks! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:02, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

No hard rule that I recall.

People would use an asterisk or a space mainly just to get an article to the top. It was (mostly) a matter of preference, plus a bit of pragmatism. Trying to get things to group.

Typically, the main topic article (or list), usually gets a space.

If there are a bunch of categories that need grouping together, generally people use the asterisk.

If you need more, the plus sign is available, I guess, but really, we should start to question why some are not just part of the asterisk group, or the alpha sort, or even sometimes adding another category tier in the tree for what might really be sibling cats.

Anyway, to your specific question, I don't see a reason for the + in this case, I'd combine them with the asterisk. - jc37 14:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll do it right away. The + sortkey currently has no official status anyway as far as I can tell, and "Child monarchs" and "Women monarchs" probably should in the same * grouping. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:21, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Categories#Category:Black_people_in_art_depopulation

Your opinion is welcome. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:33, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Can categories be added in this example?

In an article about a geographical location (ex. town), can we add a category related to an event that happened there (a battle, massacre, disaster, etc.) if that event is mentioned in the article but doesn't have a stand-alone subarticle yet? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:38, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I would say "no" not just because this is disallowed by WP:INCOMPATIBLE, but also because a battle or massacre (unless very large scale or famous) is unlikely to be WP:DEFINING for a geographical location. If it is that famous a stand alone article likely already exists. WP:INCOMPATIBLE suggests categorizing the redirect in this situation. (t · c) buidhe 04:58, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I see. Then perhaps we need more categories in the format of Category:Holocaust locations? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:31, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Personally I am not sure that is a good category title because 1) it does not explain what the relationship between the place and the Holocaust is and 2) it is likely to accumulate non-defining entries. In this case for example pretty much any location in the part of Europe reached by the Axis powers with a significant prewar Jewish population could be classified as a "Holocaust location" by those editors (many/most) who are not familiar with how categorization is supposed to work. (t · c) buidhe 14:03, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Do you think we should delete this category? I see the issue with non-defining/too excessive categorization, but on the other hand, it makes sense to find articles with relevant sections/content. Categorizing redirects makes sense but it does not play well, from the technical perspective, with {{interlanguage link}} for example, as a redirect would create a false impression that we have an article and disable this template (which otherwise links the readers to relevant articles on other wikipedias). PS. Related category: Category:Execution sites which I randomly notice includes Prague's Old Town Square is probably a good example of the overcategorization problem. Sigh. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:30, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I would vote delete if it were up for cfd. (t · c) buidhe 17:08, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I think the related category needs purging but I'm not sure it needs deletion. "Execution sites" does seem like a WP:DEFINING characteristic of some of those pages, such as Kommunarka shooting ground. Maybe the category description should be updated to make it clear that this is sites dedicated to performing executions, not just any place where an execution occurred. - car chasm (talk) 19:33, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Request for comment on Talk:Sam Hyde

I was suggested that I ask here for comment on the categorization of comedian, pranker and performance artist Sam Hyde under Category:Alt-right. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 20:28, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Displaying only subpages in category pages

Is there anyway that only subpages display in a category page without the names of the main pages? Yoosef (talk) 20:04, 11 July 2023 (UTC)