Talk:Timeline of the Russian invasion of Ukraine (1 December 2023 – 31 March 2024)

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Extended-protected edit request 1 January 2024

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Timeline of the Russian invasion of Ukraine (1 December 2023 – 31 March 2024). (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

A museum dedicated to Ukrainian nationalist Roman Shukhevych...

Nationalist? He was a major war criminal responsible for ethnic cleansings. It should be changed to something like

A museum dedicated to Ukrainian war criminal Roman Shukhevych...

For reference, from Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia article:

Roman Shukhevych, a UPA commander, stated in his order from 25 February 1944: "In view of the success of the Soviet forces it is necessary to speed up the liquidation of the Poles, they must be totally wiped out, their villages burned... only the Polish population must be destroyed".

85.193.204.141 (talk) 14:07, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Has he been officially recognized? If not, the word nationalist is the most sober description that can be done for now. Borgenland (talk) 14:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a joke? His article already lists plenty of sources naming him a war criminal, this is one of them.

Shukhevych’s critics portray him as a war criminal; his admirers either overlook this episode or regard his collaboration with Nazi Germany as unproblematic.

Yeah, collaborating with nazis and organizing violent purge of civilians is definitely unproblematic.

Also, Soviet authorities persecuted him and his entire family. While Soviets were evil, they wouldn't go to such lengths after a regular criminal, especially in 1950s (keep in mind that NKVD was already dissolved 4 years prior). What else do you want, a UN resoultion? International tribunal 80 years after the events happened. Calling him simply nationalist is akin to whitewashing Oskar Dirlewanger or Joachim Peiper as mere military officers. 85.193.204.141 (talk) 15:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m also basing it on the article lead. Had it been clearly identified as such at the start then I wouldn’t have minded inserting that description. Borgenland (talk) 15:50, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to include the war criminal in the description also. Borgenland (talk) 16:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please change:

"A museum about Ukrainian nationalist, Nazi collaborator, and war criminal Roman Shukhevych in Lviv was set on fire by a Russian drone."

To:

"A museum in Lviv dedicated to Roman Shukhevych was set on fire by a Russian drone."

Because it is only tangentially related to this article what the burned museum was about. If it is, for some reason, important for readers of this article to know more about the topic of the museum then an alternative is:

"A museum in Lviv dedicated to Roman Shukhevych, A Ukrainian nationalist and a military leader of the nationalist Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), was set on fire by a Russian drone."

Which is taken directly from the lead paragraph of the linked article dedicated to Roman Shukhevych since presumably these are the most important facts about him.

Maybe "Ukrainian nationalist, Nazi, and war criminal" is the best introductory description of Roman Shukhevych. But isn't that a matter to discuss on the Roman Shukhevych page? Uhoj (talk) 22:49, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree.

Please try not to engage in historical denialism about a major war criminal. His article already mentions that its "lead section may be too short to adequately summarize the key points.".

And the university they hit? It has Stepan Bandera monument in front of it.

For once this was not a random bombing of civilians but... actual and targeted denazification. It could be a one-off incident or an early sign that on enemy's side someone more competent took command. (It also breaks "there are no nazis" narrative when there was a museum of literal nazi war criminal. Just a sign that this war is not so black and white.) 85.193.204.141 (talk) 02:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and there you have a rather reliable Rzeczpospolita newspaper article about today's strike. Note the fragment:

PL: Szuchewycz, jako dowódca UPA, jest bezpośrednio odpowiedzialny za zbrodnie na Polakach dokonywane przez Ukraińską Powstańczą Armię w czasie rzezi wołyńskiej.

EN: Shukhevych, as the commander of the UPA, is directly responsible for the crimes against Poles committed by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army during the Volhynia massacre.

85.193.204.141 (talk) 15:50, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 January 2024

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected redirect at Timeline of the Russian invasion of Ukraine (1 December 2023 – present). (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

As for the events of Jan 1, 2024, it is written that

A museum about Ukrainian nationalist, Nazi collaborator, and war criminal Roman Shukhevych in Lviv was set on fire by a Russian drone.[158] with the link to https://kyivindependent.com/drone-strike-in-lviv-leaves-museum-on-fire/ (here - [158]).

In the cited source it's never mentioned that Roman Shukhevych was a "war criminal". Moreover, there is no judicial decision whatsoever anywhere in the world that would prove that he was found guilty of the war crimes. That being said, adding the words "war criminal" next to his name is speculative, opinionated, and does not go along with Wikipedia being the fact-based encyclopedia. The allegations about him being a war criminal are the result of a very meticulously performed propaganda by Soviet authorities that began in the 1960s, as they [authorities] saw in the Ukrainian nationalist movement a threat. This can be fact-checked here: https://www.istpravda.com.ua/articles/2023/11/6/163319/ - in the article by Olesia Isayuk, PhD, a historian and a research associate of the Liberation Movement Research Center and the National Memorial Museum "Prison on Lontskyi".

That's why I request a removal of the words "war criminal" as being opinion-driven, propaganda-driven, and speculative. T-martyniuk25 (talk) 11:37, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the thread above. This particular incident is appearing to become quite tricky, though personally I wouldn't mind making the revision for as long as there is consensus. Borgenland (talk) 12:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

However, another source which I mentioned, directly states that he was responsible for genocide of Poles in what is now western Ukraine. Rzeczpospolita is definitely not a fringe, alt-right or heavily nationalist newspaper. I cannot add it to article because I don't have a confirmed Wikipedia account.

There are also other articles from notable sources mentioning this airstrike and Shukhevych crimes: Polish Press Agency (the same article in Ukrainian), RMF24 radio.

Fact is, at one point Ukraine stood on the very wrong side of history. After 2022 they've decided to rapidly rid themselves from Soviet and Russian influences - good job! Too bad that some people (and apparently it's not some tiny, fringe ultranationalist minority) try to build a new-old national identity based on people who were literal nazis (and officer grade at that!). Stuff like this museum isn't helping their cause. However, pretending it doesn't exist or that he was just "fighting for freedom" only fuels anti-ukrainian sentiment in Poland and other states.

85.193.204.141 (talk) 16:26, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]