Talk:Expulsion of Cham Albanians

Hello Everyone. There is a discrepancy in the article. It says A MAJORITY of cham Albanians collaborated with the Axis forces and on the other hand it says that 2000 chams were found guilty of collaborating kut of either 14, 20, 25 or even 35 000 chams. Since when is 2000 2/3 of any of these numbers?? This is a clear troll and i am removing the part majority IMMEDIATELY, as it contradicts the rest of the text and i cannot find the word majority in any of the sources(let alone you cite greek sources on the matter, which is a clear troll as well, but since they are technically okay, I am not making an issue out of it) However the word majority , should and it is going to be removed as of now for the valid reasons stated above! Cheers, Gjergj Zogaj — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.136.77 (talk) 10:21, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Removal of Close, David H. (1995). "The Origins of the Greek Civil War" in wp:IDONTLIKEIT fashion

Edits such as this one [[1]] constitute disruption and manipulation of sourced content. Any further attempt of manipulating sourced data will be reported. Based on the specific author who is a specialist historian on WWII history of Greece the lowest estimate is 200. Not 1,200. As such there is no excuse to change the specific lowest number to a higher number in clear wp:IDONTLIKEIT fashion. Alexikoua (talk) 01:56, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

This is stated in the lead. EDES gangs were not the only perpetrators; also, according to Miranda Vickers, 5,000 Chams were killed, but due to a likely overlap between total murdered and total died through starvation/disease, I did not insist upon adding it back. This is not a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, but a case of WP:SCOPE, killing from non-EDES members are included in the article, the infobox should account for this. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 02:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The quote reads: ""EDES gangs massacred 200–300 of the Cham population, who during the occupation totalled about 19,000 and forced all the rest to flee to Albania"", according to this summary: EDES gangs were not the only perpetrators nevertheless this is not an excuse to consider that non-EDES guerrilla also killed Chams. According to Close the only ones that killed Chams were EDES gangs and those killed totalled 200-300. For future reference a perpetrator of a forced migration isn't necessary someone who also killed.

Removing Close's estimates under this rationale can be considered at least childish editing.Alexikoua (talk) 02:07, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Please see WP:NPA. I was reflecting the infobox information the way it is described in the lead, which is why I removed it. Does Close explicitly say that it was only EDES that killed Albanians without any involvement from ELAS or individual peasants? If not, then making this number the lower bound is still misleading. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Close does not state that only EDES gangs killed Albanians, making his number misleading to keep as the lower bound for total killed during this period. Yung Doohickey (talk) 02:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Alexikoua, unless you have a source which explicitly states that EDES members were the only ones that killed Chams (which is already refuted by other sources it seems), that constitutes WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. It is not WP:GOODFAITH to accuse someone of manipulating figures and then describing their behaviour as “childish” (a favourite catchword for you), when it is actually you who is in fact doing so. To top it off, you threatened the user by saying you’ll report them when they clearly have not done anything wrong, nor have they done anything in bad faith. Be civil. Botushali (talk) 04:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Once again attempting to shift the burden of proof. The burden of proof is on those claiming EDES gangs were not the only perpetrators Which sources state this explicitly? If none are provided I will remove it. Khirurg (talk) 04:46, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Tsoutsoumpis, Spyros (December 2015) page 137: "The final outbreak of violence occurred in the town of Filiates in late September, when approximately 100 Chams were murdered by guerrillas and civilians", "when former guerrillas and locals attacked the few Muslim families who had returned to the town of Filiates murdering at least sixty persons", and "On the night of 28 August 1944, a group of ELAS guerrillas led by Thanasis Giohalas arrested 40 Muslims in the town of Parga and executed them in the town’s Venetian castle".[here] This source is cited in the article. Yung Doohickey (talk) 04:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

100+40+60 is 200, not 1200. And except for the 40 killed by ELAS, it's not clear that "guerillas" and "former guerillas" does not refer to EDES (in fact it most likely does). But even if we add these figures to the 200-300 killed by EDES, that's still far less than 1200. Khirurg (talk) 05:36, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Two of these citations involves civilians/locals, and the third one involves ELAS. My point is that "EDES gangs" are not the only perpetrators of killings, which is what you asked of me. Yung Doohickey (talk) 05:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

There is nothing to suggest that 1200 is the lower bound. That is what we are talking about. I don't see anything anywhere that claims 1200 is the lower bound. You will need a high quality source that explicitly states that 1200 is the lower bound. Khirurg (talk) 05:43, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Baltsiotis, Lambros (13 November 2011): "In total more than 1,200 persons were murdered."[here] This is cited in the article. Yung Doohickey (talk) 05:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes I know, but what you are not getting is he doesn't state that is a lower bound. Can you understand that? You need a source that claims 1200 is the lower bound. As far as I can tell the lowest estimate I've seen so far is 200-300. Khirurg (talk) 05:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

It clearly states that more than 1,200 were killed, which clearly means it's the minimum number killed (i.e. the lower bound). What exactly am I not getting? The 200-300 estimate isn't accurate to all perpetrators, and shouldn't be used when there's another source that does include other perpetrators. I've provided a source stating that killings were committed by perpetrators outside of EDES elements and a source citing the minimum total estimate at 1,200. Yung Doohickey (talk) 06:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Don't fabricate stuff. Baltsiotis in no way states that is lower bound. You are literally making that up. "More than 1200" could easily just be a figure of speech to round the number, instead of saying "1210 were killed". It's common practice to round such figures with figures of speech such as "more than" or "over". Even if we add the 40 killed by ELAS (the only substantiated piece of evidence that it wasn't just EDES), that's still nowhere close to 1200. Again, find a better a source or forget it. Khirurg (talk) 06:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Regardless, the source is still putting the total number killed anywhere above 1,200 and below 2,000. The 40 killed by ELAS was only in one massacre, that isn't an indicator that it was the only one; additionally, individual peasants/locals/citizens were involved in the killings as well. Yung Doohickey (talk) 06:25, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

And Close put it at 200-300. If he felt there were others, he would have put them too (e.g. "200-300 were killed by EDES and X were killed by Y). So that's the lower bound for now. Khirurg (talk) 07:07, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I see what you're saying, but Close did not put the total at 200-300. He put the number killed by EDES gangs at 200-300 for March to May 1945, making it WP:OR to have it count for 1944-1945. On the Greek side of the frontier, government forces in March-May 1945 inflamed tensions by savage persecution of the Albanian-speaking Muslims, the Chams, in Epirus, and of the slavophones in western Macedonia. EDES gangs massacred 200-300 of the Cham population, who during the occupation totalled about 19,000, and forced all the rest to flee to Albania. I didn't realize this before, but I think this gives an even bigger reason why it shouldn't be used. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 14:47, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Also, since the additional 2,500 due to starvation/illness is not universally agreed upon (correct me if I'm wrong), the deaths should just be on a range from 1,200 to 5,000 (citing Miranda Vickers for the 5,000 figure) and the section mentioning the additional 2,500 should be removed. This will make the infobox less bloated as well. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 18:58, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Its crystal clear that Close provides a full picture of the event of Cham expulsion, He doesn't make exceptions.Alexikoua (talk) 22:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Close is giving his figures from March to May 1945, please read my 24 December comment. This make his estimate WP:OR to apply for the entirety of 1944-45. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 00:39, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Including Nazi collaborators in the 'victims' number

The community provided 2 to 3 thousand armed units that actively participated in armed operations and war crimes against civilians and condemned by the Nuremberg and other post WWII trials. As such including the full number of the community to the 'victims' is POV. Objections?Alexikoua (talk) 22:38, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Where is this indicated in Mojzes's figure of 2877? If this is not mentioned in Mojzes, his figure should stay reinstated. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 00:42, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, why were rape victims and deportees removed from the infobox? Just because some of the community collaborated doesn't justify full exclusion from the infobox. Yung Doohickey (talk) 00:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Infobox provides general information about (cited) figures. The details about how this event is described is located in prose. There were rapes but there was also massive escape by Nazi transport. Also don't present again the entire community as 'victims' since its leadership was incorporated into the Wehrmacht Nazi war machine: you need serious backing to present 'war criminals' per WWII Nuremberg trial as 'victims'. Don't do it again.Alexikoua (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

You still have not adequately explained why you removed certain figures, and reinstated Close (his estimate describes March to May 1945, not the entire event per his previous sentence). Just because the Cham community had Nazi collaborators doesn't mean that all of the figures include collaborators (see WP:OR and WP:POVPUSHING). Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

You still have not explained some basic and insist on POV. Insisting that the entire community (including armed pro-Nazi group) are labelled victims fall into WP:OR wp:POV and WP:POVPUSHING, per wp:BRD you need consensus first.Alexikoua (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

You're claiming the figures provided by the sources include Nazi collaborators. This is WP:OR and there's no indication in the sources that they include collaborators. Your edit also undid minor improvements to the lead. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 21:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)