Talk:2017 Alabama Crimson Tide football team

"Consensus" national champions

I can't find a reliable source confirming that the 2017 Alabama Crimson Tide team won either the "Consensus National Championship" or the "Co National Championship". Sources like The New York Times call it the "National Championship". Unless there's a good reason to not use that wording (ie, other equally reliable sources disagree), that's what Wikipedia should say. Huon (talk) 00:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

At a closer look this problem seems to extend beyond this individual article and should be discussed more generally; compare Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football#"Consensus" national champions. Huon (talk) 01:01, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Consensus, as it is defined, refers to "general agreement". This generally means that a team must be selected by all three major selectors who report polls at the end of the season. These are the AP poll, the Amway Coaches Poll, and the National Football Foundation. If you take a look, within this site, at every single team from 2017 Alabama to 2005 Texas every single one of them uses the term "Consensus" despite the fact that in many cases minor selectors have chosen other teams for that year. The only time in which Consensus does not apply is in "split" championship scenarios, the last of which happened in 2003. This terminology is consistently applied and it absolutely applies to 2017 Alabama without a shadow of a doubt. TTownTurkey (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:42, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

As a matter of record as well, this document from the governing body of college football the NCAA lists "Consensus National Champions" on page 120 by the criteria I have mentioned: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2017/FBS.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by TTownTurkey (talk • contribs) 04:05, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

The Colley Matrix is one of more than 40 polls, rankings and formulas recognized by the NCAA in its list of “national champion major selections.” The Knights finished the 2017 football season as the No. 1 team in the Colley Bias Free Matrix Rankings, which were released on Tuesday 01/09/2018. The Matrix was a contributor to the BCS rankings — which preceded the current College Football Playoff system — in selecting two teams to play for the college football championship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.219.209.210 (talk) 13:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

The Colley Matrix (CM) is not a major selector in and of itself. It WAS a constituent of dozens of computer matrices that were aggregated to form a single "major selector" for INCLUSION into the final game in the now defunct BCS system format. And, even under that system, the computer aggregate was used as a supplement for a human poll as well. In no way is the CM used to determine a consensus champion in any reasonable sense of the word consensus now or even during the BCS system. In the same way one dissenting member of congress doesn't equate a lack of general consensus, the same applies here as well. The CM is also notoriously inaccurate and unintuitive. For instance, last year Alabama won the CM "Championship" and in 2012, despite losing to Alabama, Notre Dame was ranked the CM "Champion". TTownTurkey (talk) 14:54, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Also 4 voters ranked UCF No. 1 in the final AP poll, is that consensus? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.219.209.210 (talk) 13:44, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Consensus does not mean "unanimous", it means "general agreement". Alabama won the "general consensus" of the AP poll, that means they are "CONSENSUS" National Champions. They also won the "Consensus" of the Coaches Poll and the NFF. Please see page 120 of this NCAA record book http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2017/FBS.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by TTownTurkey (talk • contribs) 14:47, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Have to say that TTownTurkey has provided relatively reliable sources and examples from historical records and college football's official governing body. The word "Consensus" does not mean "Unanimous," even if the CM algorithm were a generally respected ranking system in the CFP era. Thus "Consensus national champion" phrase neither compromises the reliability/neutrality of Wikipedia nor endangers UCF's self-proclaimed national championship based on the CM and its athletic department. I've edited UCF's page to include "Colley Matrix national champion," citing the Orlando Sentinel's sports editor. Ongoing dispute on this page will not lead to any constructive edits or prove UCF's championship legitimacy. Disruptive edits without acknowledging the dictionary definitions of "consensus" and "unanimous" between Wikipedians and multiple IP addresses on this page unfortunately won't resolve any issue. J1n9 (talk) 15:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

If the Colley Matrix has UCF #1, and there are voters in the AP that have voted UCF#1... and UCF makes a claim to the title. I don't see how Alabama can claim to be the "Consensus" National Championship. Why is that not a compromise and call Alabama the National Champions ( AP, Coaches Poll, NFF )TomHidden (talk) 16:13, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

It is actually a possible way to resolve disputes. However page 120 of the NCAA record book http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2017/FBS.pdf about the official recognition of "Consensus national champion" would likely challenge the reliability of Wikipedia. Furthermore, it has been Wikipedia college football pages' convention to include "Consensus national champion" if the team persuades all major three selectors. Switching to a new set of convention means a lot of impending but unnecessary changes to over a hundred of Wikipedia pages. Again, please refer to https://www.merriam-webster.com (Webster dictionary) for definitions of "consensus" and "unanimous," because labeling Alabama as "Unanimous national champion" may not be a good edit. J1n9 (talk) 16:31, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

As a side note, vandalism on this page has been heavy since January 8, the day CFP NCG was held. I added "CFP national champion" that night, while having to revert a disruptive edit ("CFP national runner-up game vs. Georgia"). However, as soon as the final AP poll had been released early on January 9, the phrase was changed to "Consensus national champion" since the Amway/USA Today Coaches' Poll contractually required all college football coaches to vote the CFP winner #1 . As a result, rapid edits from several unregistered, changing IP addresses might have been noted as vandalism. If you have a strong opinion, please consider posting early here. J1n9 (talk) 16:16, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Just because you don’t like an edit does not make it vandalism.TomHidden (talk) 16:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. But multiple changing IP addresses for persistent edits without sufficient communications might have got the opinions mistaken, given that "CFP national runner-up game vs. Georgia" had existed for quite some time before the CFP NCG. Apologize if mistakes were made. I recognized UCF's CM national championship by editing its page with sources included, which may justify that pages should never be heavily edited because of "like an edit" or "don't like an edit." The WP vandalism page resources are here: WP:VD. I never define it. J1n9 (talk) 16:39, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Please see College football national championships in NCAA Division I FBS#Yearly national championship selections from major selectors. This section defines the meaning of "Consensus National Champions." Edits using the term should conform to its project-wide meaning. UW Dawgs (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "project-wide meaning" on Wikipedia. There is, however, original synthesis, something we should not engage in. A reliable source has been presented which shows which teams the NCAA considers consensus national champions until 2016. It seems highly likely that someone named champion in the AP poll and/or the coaches' poll will be considered consensus national champion, but that's not for us to conclude without secondary sources backing it up. Huon (talk) 01:29, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

They're not a consensus champion, it's very much disputed. CFP champion is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:582:8601:8EBB:6175:4DD3:6C89:E46B (talk) 02:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

This is an incredibly tiresome and lazy argument to moderation. I suggest you read the NCAA record book as well as cross reference College football national championships in NCAA Division I FBS#Yearly national championship selections from major selectors listed multiple times in this thread and read up on what is defined as a champion selected by a consensus selector. If indeed, you are doing this in an attempt to legitimize UCF's self-proclaimed "national championship" then you are wasting your time. To list Alabama as anything less than the consensus national championship would diminish the reliability and neutrality of this article and constant attempts to vandalize this article are not going top change that fact. TTownTurkey (talk) 02:26, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

References

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Alabama Crimson Tide at White House 2018.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:52, 24 January 2020 (UTC)