Talk:Armenian genocide

Infobox info

Buidhe just removed the infobox. I'm generally supportive of infoboxes, but I think there is a valid argument that most of the information in this infobox is oversimplified.

Most of the content of the infobox probably still belongs in the article. I'm preserving a copy of the infobox below so we ensure none of the substantive information about the genocide is lost from article.

Removed infobox

Armenian genocide
Part of World War I
Column of Armenian deportees guarded by gendarmes in Harput vilayet
Location	Ottoman Empire
Date	1915–1917
Target	Ottoman Armenians
Attack type	Genocide, death march, forced Islamization
Deaths	600,000–1.5 million
Perpetrators	Committee of Union and Progress

References

— BillHPike (talk, contribs) 05:27, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

See the above debate about dates.

Another concern I have is about the perpetrator section, although it was certainly organized by the CUP there were a variety of perpetrators that don't fit neatly into an infobox slot.

I don't know if "attack type" is particularly helpful information, especially since it repeats what is already in the lead.

The genocide only took place in specific parts of the Ottoman Empire and arguably also took place in adjoining areas of Russia and Iran (which partly depends on which dates are included) thus perhaps including some victims who were actually Russian or Iranian Armenians. (t · c) buidhe 06:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

This removal is not consistent with other pages related to genocides I have gone through most genocide pages and this is the only one that doesn’t have a info box. Farrafiq (talk) 08:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

The CUP regrouped as the Turkish Nationalist Movement?

This article states:

The CUP regrouped as the Turkish nationalist movement to fight the Turkish War of Independence, relying on the support of perpetrators of the genocide and those who had profited from it.

Yet the actual page for the CUP appears to show the situation was much more complicated:

Though most Unionists chose to rally around Mustafa Kemal and his Turkish national movement against the government in Constantinople and renew war against the Allies, some Unionists were dissatisfied and Kara Kemal ^[tr] briefly revived the CUP in January 1922. Unionist journalist Hüseyin Cahit declared Union and Progress would not contest the 1923 general election for the Ankara based parliament against Atatürk's People's Party. However, dissatisfied with the secularist policies the Republicans were pushing through, such as the abolition of the Caliphate, Kara Kemal's CUP supported the creation of the Progressive Republican Party, which splintered from the People's Party (which renamed itself to the Republican People's Party). The Progressive Republican Party and the remaining nonconforming Unionists were purged for good following the İzmir Affair, an alleged assassination attempt against Mustafa Kemal. Dr. Nazım, Mehmed Cavid, and İsmail Canbulat ^[tr] met their ends in the subsequent Independence Tribunals with Kara Kemal committing suicide before his execution. With opposition quashed, Atatürk consolidated his power and continued ruling Turkey until his death in 1938.

This should be cleared up so that we have no contradictions. In any case, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of sources state that Mustafa Kemal's national movement was rather organic and that the CUP did not just become the Turkish National Movement. Evaporation123 (talk) 03:02, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The paragraph is entirely unsourced in the CUP article so it counts for absolutely nothing. Besides, this is a matter that only needs one sentence in this article, what you've posted would be far too much detail even if it were supported adequately by FA-level citations. (t · c) buidhe 03:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

It is sourced though. Wikipedia doesn't let you copy and paste citations across pages, so check the original page and you'll see. Evaporation123 (talk) 03:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, I can see that there are two sources cited partway through the paragraph that do not support all the content, but neither of them are acceptable in a FA on a controversial history topic anyway so the distinction is moot. BTW you can copy the citations, you can easily view and copy the wikitext using source editing mode. (t · c) buidhe 04:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Mistake in sourcing

I am referring to the following sentence in the Background section:

"Armenians were a minority in most places where they lived, alongside Turkish and Kurdish Muslim and Greek Orthodox Christian neighbors."

An editor seems to have mistakenly copied the source used for the next statement and used it here as well. The assessment is more or less directly taken out of Suny's They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else, but also cites Kévorkian who in the cited work opposes the idea that Armenians were "a minority" in the Armenian Highlands. The cited page does not contain any information about this. It's kinda ironic to make a statement like this that so much of the literature on the Armenian Genocide disagrees with and then citing one of those works by mistake, isn't it? AlenVaneci (talk) 10:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I have removed the citations that didn't contain the information, and added a new one, from one of the most reliable population censuses taken before the genocide. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The Turkish version of this article

In the Turkish version of this article the "genocide" is downgraded to a "massacre", and it is also claimed that there "are doubts about the impartiality of this article".

How can a negationist description of such a serious crime against humanity be accepted on Wikipedia? 95.182.182.30 (talk) 15:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

We don't have any power over the Turkish Wikipedia, but interested editors might choose to head over there and improve the article, presuming their Turkish language skills are strong enough. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

This article can be translated into Turkish if anyone has the linguistic skills. I bet it has already been translated into some other languages and posted at other Wikipedias. (t · c) buidhe 17:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Read do not create wp:hoaxes. 176.219.154.227 (talk) 16:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Sarikamish Contradiction

It seems this article and Battle of Sarikamish can't agree on whether it's been verified that Enver Pasha publicly blamed the Armenians for his defeat in that battle or not.

I have absolutely no opinion on the subject, and don't wish to stick my foot in a tarpit, but whichever one it is, the two articles need to express the same conclusion, or even a lack thereof. Ipatrol (talk) 23:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Operation Nemesis

I added a section in the Aftermath on Operation Nemesis, both how it killed the top perpetrators of the Armenian genocide, but also that the Turkish government provided compensation to the families of the the perpetrators and how some perpetrators managed to evade justice. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 03:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

It's already mentioned. Two paragraphs are definitely WP:UNDUE. (t · c) buidhe 06:31, 26 December 2023 (UTC)