Talk:Unsworth

Alleged Robert Clive Ties

There are some dubious claims that Robert Clive (Clive of India) resided in one of Unsworth’s early farmhouses (Brick House Farm) along with his Uncle. Along with these claims, are that he attended (the former) Stand Grammar School in Whitefield. As it seemed to me unlikely that Clive would have lived in such a remote farmhouse, I’ve investigated this thoroughly - and they unfortunately appear to have been fabricated. Here’s what I’ve found:

Looking into the scholarship on Clive’s early life (none of which confirm the aforementioned claims) Clive has definite ties to Manchester. It appears he spent six years living at what was Hope Hall in Eccles with his aunt Elizabeth Bayley (née Gaskell) (his mother’s sister) and uncle Daniel Bayley Esq. However, as for his ties with the Unsworth and Whitefield area - it seems to me these are products of local mythology.

The earliest claims of his ties to the area seem to come from a hand-typed local guide, dating from 1965. I came across a facsimile of the document on a local facebook group. The guide appears to have been written by F. G. Downing (Francis Gerald), a former vicar of St George’s church in Unsworth. Where he came about the notion is a complete mystery to me, though the existence of a “Lord Clive” pub (1964, demolished recently) in the area seems to suggest the existence of some local folklore.

This claim then reappears on Wikipedia, several recent local news articles (all dated after Wikipedia), and finally a real estate listing for the house supposedly lived in by Clive and/or his uncle (the Downing states it was his uncle, the wikipedia and recent internet interventions claim it was Clive himself.)

While I am not suggesting that these claims were exaggerated to help the sale of Brick House Farm in 2018, they certainly appear to have helped advertise the listing.

Local news outlet’s reported its “extraordinary history,” which was also included on promotional material by the estate agents. The house itself seems to have been the earliest brick house in the area, yet while it would have been in existence during Clive’s early years - that (of course) doesn’t equate to him having anything to do with it.

With regards to the scholarship on Clive’s early life - the New and General Biographical Dictionary suggests that his schooling consider of a firstly private school in “Lostock” [sic], Cheshire; then an unnamed school at Market Drayton (his family home); and finally Merchant Taylor’s school in London (where he didn’t stay long.)

“New and General Biographical Dictionary” in The British Critic. Vol XI, Jan, 1798. p. 248.

Sir John Malcolm confirms and expands on this, stating that he went to Lostock aged 11 suggesting that this was after he left his aunt at Hope Hall due to her death. Malcolm cites a number of correspondences as evidence to Clive’s time in Manchester, none of what is included makes any reference to Unsworth, or Brick Farm House.

Malcolm, John. The Life of Robert, Lord Clive: Collected from the Family Papers Communicated by the Earl of Powis. Vol. 1. J. Murray, 1836. p. 34.

Malleson confirms the time Clive spent at Hope Hall, and states that after which, he was sent to Dr. Eton’s private school, “Lostocke” [sic], before leaving at eleven to study with Mr Burslem at Market Drayton “for a few years,” then “sent to have a brief experience” at Merchant Taylors’. Interestingly, Malleson adds that there was another final school in Hertfordshire “kept by My Sterling” before joining the East India Company.

Malleson, G. B. Rulers of India: Lord Clive. Project Gutenberg. ch. 1.

Of the more recent scholarship, Faught confirms everything from Malcolm, expanding slightly and stating that Clive spent only six years at Hope Hall, attending the “Bostock” school at Cheshire while residing at home, before transferring to the “Old Grammar School” in Drayton. From there Faught confirms that Clive attended Merchant Taylors’ in London, and adds that Clive also attended a “vocational establishment in Hemel Hempstead”

Faught, C. Brad. Clive Founder of British India. First ed., Potomac Books, 2013.

There are other sources, but none that add anything new, or comment on his early years. I must stress at this point that I have found no evidence in any of these texts that Clive had a connection with Unsworth, Brick House Lane, or Stand Grammar School. The only source that links Brick House Lane and Stand Grammar School to Clive, then, seems to be the Downing’s 1965 homemade pamphlet.

It’s interesting that the publication of Downing’s pamphlet comes a year after the 1964 opening of the pub. At the very least, this apparent coincidence suggests that the Clive’s alleged influence on the area likely existed in folklore in the mid 1960s.

The very fact that Downing set out to write a “history” of the area for his guide, is testament to his aspirations. I believe that Downing was given this information, and chose not to verify it to bolster his self-publishing historiographic efforts. As for it’s emergence in the local folklore, I must assume that the facts of Clive’s residence in Manchester have simply distorted through word-of-mouth transmission.

And of course, if you are reading this and have any further information on the origins of the tale, please do post them here.

Jamez1502 (talk) 13:06, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

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