Talk:2024 western Russia incursion

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 2024 western Russia incursion article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS

The article 2024 western Russia incursion, along with other pages relating to the Russo-Ukrainian War, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:

Only extended-confirmed editors may make edits related to the topic area, though editors who are not extended-confirmed may post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area on article talk pages. Should disruption occur on article talk pages, administrators may take enforcement actions against disruptive editors and/or apply page protection on article talk pages. However, non-extended-confirmed editors may not make edits to internal project discussions related to the topic area, even on article talk pages. Internal project discussions include, but are not limited to, Articles for deletion nominations, WikiProjects, requests for comment, requested moves, and noticeboard discussions.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.

Remedy instructions and exemptions
Enforcement procedures: Violations of any restrictions and other conduct issues should be reported to the administrators' incidents noticeboard. Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. An editor must be aware before they can be sanctioned.

Military history: European / Russian & Soviet / Post-Cold War C‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

C

This article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	European military history task force
	Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

Russia: History / Military Unassessed

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.
	This article is supported by the Russian, Soviet, and CIS military history task force.

Ukraine Unassessed

	Ukraine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Map needed

It is requested that a map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality.

Map?

Should a map be added? Lukt64 (talk) 17:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There isnt a reliable map anywhere online unfortunately 2603:8000:E203:922:D4AB:5CF5:A53A:D751 (talk) 23:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source for map linked further down in talk page. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commander of the "Legion Freedom of Russia"

According to the Legion of Freedom of Russia's Telegram, Maximilian Andronikkov no longer a commander Onushe (talk) 20:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Link pls? Firestar464 (talk) 03:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merger Proposal

I propose merging this article to 2023–2024 Belgorod Oblast incursions as this just so happens to be one of those incurious into that particular Oblast, though the Kursk Oblast is also involved this time. Perhaps some discussion here could clear things out as to whether a separate article is needed for this incursion or not. IanDBeacon (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With 234 (allegedly) killed, I think deserves an own and separated article.31.221.207.216 (talk) 23:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Government Casualties

How many Russian Government men have been killed and wounded by the rebels? Does anyone have sources? 2001:8003:3A18:E00:3145:956B:894B:F2A9 (talk) 11:25, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also need to specify circumstances of vehicle losses. Borgenland (talk) 12:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2 BMD-2's were destroyed, confirmed by the Freedom of Russia Legion about half an hour ago on their Telegram Group. 151.37.156.187 (talk) 13:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By drone attack 151.37.156.187 (talk) 13:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

Visegrad 24 report

Hey Borgenland. I saw you removed the Visegrad 24 report under OR due to the 2nd sentence source being predated. I will give you that. However, the first sentence was not predated and is a valid thing to mention (I believe). So, would you be opposed to the following being included in the article? Visegrád 24, a large advertising agency account on X, reported that the Freedom of Russia Legion had captured the towns of Kozinka and Glotovo in Belgorod Oblast.^[1] That statement is factually accurate and has encyclopedic value due to the history of Visegrad 24’s misinformation. It doesn’t have to be present in a “misinformation” section either. I am thinking about adding it at the end of the 12 March 2024 section, since that is when it was reported. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC) The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just need a better source for the correction. I don’t mind the first part. Borgenland (talk) 00:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Preferably one that directly addresses the claim. Borgenland (talk) 00:43, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's unclear how the inclusion would have encyclopedic value due to the history of Visegrad 24’s misinformation -- am I missing something? --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, no one has stated their report was misinformation. They have just mis-reported a couple of things in the past (see their Wikipedia article). But this has not been confirmed to be misinformation at all. Also no RSN discussion on them yet. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is dubious info cited to Twitter -- suggest it be removed as non-RS / undue. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have proof it isn't RS? No discussion on RSN has deprecated or even occurred over them. Twitter news outlets are allowed as BNO News is considered reliable and they are fully a Twitter-based news outlet. Just like Borgenland suggested, sources are needed, and in this case, a source is needed saying what they reported isn't true. They are cited by several news outlets that are RS, so no source saying it isn't RS means it should not be removed. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I removed Visegrad as undue/non-RS; preserving here by providing this link, as well as this one. The burden to show the reliability of a source is on those who wish to include it; see WP:BURDEN. Welcome to start a discussion at RSN. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. I will not be attempting to restore the material. However, BURDEN also would be on you as the remover to show the source provided is not a reliable source. So, as that has not been done, this discussion plays not further impact on the reliability or future usage of Visegrad 24 in this article or on Wikipedia. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:48, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Map of Russian forces allied with Ukraine breaking into Russian territory today. The war has yet again been taken to Russian territory. Now, it's Russian citizens for once that have to listen to automatic fire all day. Vote for Putin again? Bad idea…" (Post on 𝕏). 𝕏 (Formerly Twitter). Visegrád 24. 12 March 2024. Archived from the original on 13 March 2024. Retrieved 13 March 2024.

Losses

Hey Borgenland, I have some sources for you like you asked regarding losses for both sides, if you deem them acceptable may I add them?

Militant losses:

1st T-64: https://t.me/mod_russia/36541

1st IMR-2 and BREM-1: https://t.me/mod_russia/36542

2nd T-64, 2nd and 3rd IMR-2, and one unknown vehicle: https://t.me/epoddubny/19328

Russian losses:

1st and 2nd BMD-2: https://twitter.com/legion_svoboda/status/1767895216030150816

1st BTR-70(?) unknown if that is the exact BTR model but it looks like it: https://twitter.com/legion_svoboda/status/1767455563632251189 2603:8000:E203:922:EC23:509C:AB0F:3033 (talk) 02:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are not reliable sources. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2 of them are from the Russian MoD, others are from pages of the militants. I get that the other Russian TG is not very reliable but they all show the videos. How else are they supposed to be confirmed? 2603:8000:E203:922:EC23:509C:AB0F:3033 (talk) 02:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Best to wait for reliable secondary sources to cover this; otherwise, we'd be conducting original research based on primary sources / unreliable wartime propaganda. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

None of these are usable, you can't cite a blog, or a social media post. Especially pro-Russian blogs with a propensity for disinformation. These have to actually be reported by legitimate organizations through legitimate channels. Scu ba (talk) 02:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Russian MoD not a legitimate channel? 2603:8000:E203:922:D4AB:5CF5:A53A:D751 (talk) 02:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has standards for what sources can be cited, and, as per WP:SPS and WP:SOCIALMEDIA, social media, including telegram, cannot be cited. Scu ba (talk) 02:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. I put telegram because, since I live in the US, the Russian MoD website is blocked. Telegram is the only official MoD source I can use that isnt blocked 2603:8000:E203:922:D4AB:5CF5:A53A:D751 (talk) 02:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so then we can't cite the Russian MoD. We'll need sources published by verifiable third parties. Scu ba (talk) 02:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a link to footage from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, from the Zvezda TV channel, where the destruction of equipment is shown

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/20243141359-yT6Uq.html Danilzeez (talk) 18:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll work this into the article. Scu ba (talk) 02:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The War Zone

I hate to cast doubts on a legitimate news source, but I can't find an about page for The War Zone, one of the primary sources in this article. A quick search for articles containing their url only came up with 7 results. They look legit, and publish mostly technical news on military vehicles, but has anyone actually done a search on if they have an editorial staff, or other quality standards? Scu ba (talk) 02:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They look borderline. They do have an editorial team, which is listed here: https://www.thedrive.com/team -- under the "The War Zone Masthead". --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a redirect to their sister website for cars, The Drive, presumably they would have the same team, but I cannot verify that. Scu ba (talk) 02:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

nvm, I didn't scroll down all the way, I see The War Zone is a separate section. Scu ba (talk) 02:43, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 March 2024

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected redirect at 2024 Western Russia incursion. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

‹ The template Edit extended-protected is being considered for merging. ›

Where it says in casualty section that a "BRM reconnaissance vehicle" was destroyed, its actually supposed to be just a bmp. Slimebor (talk) 13:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

do you have a citation or a source? Scu ba (talk) 15:03, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image?

Per WP:NFCC, could we include, say, this image? 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 15:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it was published by the Russian ministry of defense we can put it on wikicommons under a "Mil.ru" tag. Scu ba (talk) 17:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 18:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead with it.Mr.User200 (talk) 20:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source for Map

If someone is familiar enough with creating a map similar to File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg, the Institute for the Study of War published a map of the incursion, which will almost certainly be updated as the mini-invasion takes place. See this detailed map for creation of the map. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zvezda News reports on casualties

Zvezda News has released some videos about the situation. Is this able to be added to the list of casualties?

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/20243141429-XB7vp.html

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/20243141359-yT6Uq.html BaddyVladdy (talk) 04:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Irpin Declaration

I reverted the recent addition of Irpin Declaration to the infobox: diff. My rationale was: "remove Irpin Declaration from infobox -- not supported by sources, unclear if this entity actually exists". The sources do not discuss this entity as having played a role in the incursion. The linked article describes Irpin Declaration as an "alleged" organization, and states that one of the supposed signatories, the Russian Volunteer Corps, denies ever signing the declaration.

I also question the inclusion of Ilya Ponomarev as "Political leadership" in the infobox. His role, as discussed in the article, amounted to issuing a statement, as a political head of the Freedom of Russia Legion. This is too minor to warrant inclusion in the infobox. -- K.e.coffman (talk) 05:51, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian Participation?

I have a question about this incursion. If Ukraine is not involved, how did the rebels gain access to tanks and other heavy equipment?

Based on that, shouldn't Ukraine be added as a belligerent without any clauses attached to it? Furthermore, these groups operate in the Territorial Defense Forces of Ukraine. One more point, these incursions were conducted from Ukrainian soil into Russian territory, so it would not be like Ukrainians had no idea on that. If that was an uprising conducted from within, we could put Ukraine's involvement as debatable.

I would like to hear other's opinions on this topic. Kapitan Siddharth (talk) 07:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Any new Advances?

The map is only based on March 12th. So I have to ask, is there any new advances or no? Just asking 24.235.144.97 (talk) 15:04, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Mar2024-1] "Map of Russian forces allied with Ukraine breaking into Russian territory today. The war has yet again been taken to Russian territory. Now, it's Russian citizens for once that have to listen to automatic fire all day. Vote for Putin again? Bad idea…" (Post on 𝕏). 𝕏 (Formerly Twitter). Visegrád 24. 12 March 2024. Archived from the original on 13 March 2024. Retrieved 13 March 2024.

[1]