Talk:Igbo people

Etymology

Can you prevent people with certain agendas from spreading falsehood about the term “Igbo” origin? Has nothing to do with Igalas. 204.197.177.13 (talk) 15:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems like some more research will be needed to sort that out. Right now, I'm afraid, the "Etymology" section is in a somewhat bad shape. William Baike's 1854 book is very old and it actually doesn't even say anything about the origin of the name; Meek's Law and Authority in a Nigerian Tribe is from 1937, so I have very serious doubts it reflects the latest insights into this matter. The Igala 'slave' theory is from a reliable and recent source – the library.bu.edu article also cited elsewhere in the section. However, having a more detailed and contemporary discussion of this topic would be even better. I'll check if I can find something. Gawaon (talk) 17:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I have now replaced the outdated information with a short summary of the discussion in a recent book on the name's possible origins. The Igala 'slave' theory is not mentioned there, hence it seems preferable not to include it. Gawaon (talk) 18:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Nsibidi origins

I have reverted a recent series of edits by CHI-Research related to the origins of Nsibidi because:

1. They messed up a number of references and (inadvertently) converted quotes from the cited references into plain article text in wikipedia's voice, which would constitute plagiarism
2. They added a paragraph of their own analysis arguing that the findings of Macgregor from 1909 are superior to subsequent research because, as per CHI-Research, the former "shows photos, artefacts and evidences of origin of Nsibidi in subgroups of Igbo" and "no referenced papers on the origin of Nsibidi in Ejagham people provide photos, archeological artefacts, peer-reviewed evidences to back up their claims of Ejagham migration." This constitutes original research. in wikipedia's parlance, and is not allowed.

CHI-Research, I urge you to read WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:HISTRS on what type of sources are preferred for this type of content on wikipedia and read WP:OR for what kind of analysis is not permitted in article-space. Also, suggest that any proposed edits to this article regarding the Nsibidi origins be discussed on this talkpage, instead of being repeatedly added/removed from the article, so that consensus can be reached.

Pinging Gawaon who has been involved in this debate and admin Doug Weller in case article protection or user sanctions are needed. Abecedare (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Below, this is how GAWAON's sentences read:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people, though in the 1900s J. K. Macgregor recorded a "native tradition" attributing it to the Uguakima or Uyanga section of the Igbo."

TWO SUGGESTIONs:

1.

WE remove GAWAON's sentence on Macgregor [from ...though...] because it was omitted in the page in the first place and I wanted to add it. I will add a phrase for the agreed submission to read as follows:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people, even as an archeological study in 1909 attribute the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbo people."

2.

GAWAON deletes sentences added to the Reference section Citations 82-85. If not, I will add more sources and add texts to those in the Reference section as well. CHI-Research (talk) 19:35, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

CHI-Research, I'll let Gawaon respond to the first suggestion about the exact phrasing but as for (2): I don't see any reason to remove the quotes that unobtrusively provide useful information to the reader. You are welcome to present here on the talkpage other modern scholarly sources that argue a different POV and we can discuss if they should be added to the article (see WP:DUE). Abecedare (talk) 20:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your response.

I would like to inform you that am not treating this as a battleground, and apologize if it comes across that way.

I just feel like GAWAON does not want the source to be added, if you check the threads since June 19, 2024.

My response is to point out that the source is a relevant source, even though 'old,' which for a historical topic is preferred, per Wikipedia Reliable Source policy. Yet, it was missing.

ADDING TEXTS TO THE REFERENCE SECTION: Is it consistent with the policy?

If GAWAON would add useful information to the citations in the Reference section, may other users add too? I ask because I consider some information as useful for readers. GAWAON discusses/elaborates on the content of sources. If policy allows users to provide extra information for readers, what I am doing is pointing out why I should be able to do the same thing. Basically, I read what GAWAON and other users post and then try to do the same.

I wait for the resolution of the matter. CHI-Research (talk) 20:19, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

even though 'old,' which for a historical topic is preferred, per Wikipedia Reliable Source policy. This is not true! See WP:HISTRS . WP:SCHOLARSHIP. I guess that the confusion is arising from the last para of WP:AGEMATTERS but note that that is talking about (near) real-time coverage of events and is not relevant here. If this article were discussing specific details of Macgregor's findings than it could be argued that his own writings are a better source for those than later summaries. But here we are simply trying to summarize what current day scholars think about the origins of Nsibidi and the Macgregor bit of the sentence (if it is to be retained) is included only for its historiographical interest and not because Macgregor's theories outweigh research over the subsequent century.

Regarding the ...may other users add too? question: it is difficult to discuss this in terms of hypotheticals. Please present here the actual sources and content you wish to add and we can consider them per WP:RS and WP:DUE. Abecedare (talk) 21:03, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

On the Age Matters policy it states:

"With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing."

Discovering an ancient writing system is a historic event, as defined. But as you previously informed, it is not about truth. Therefore, one only needs to cite the paper. there are newspapers, blogs, videos that attribute the origin to Igbo people. My intention is not to add all those sources, because they make the same case as Macgregor. Similarly, there is no need adding 4 sources on Ejagham when they make the same case, either migration or colonial officers. So, let's ignore all that and agree to cite two citations to highlight migration and 'colonial officers for Ejagham people and Macgregor for Igbo people.

Then we word it as in my first suggestion. Let's agree to that.

Regarding adding texts to the Reference section, I suggest that if GAWAON keeps the texts as they are in the Reference section, I will structure sentences similarly to elaborate on my sources. It depends if GAWAON's texts stay as they or not. CHI-Research (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I am stating that discovering an ancient writing system is a historic event and that the only way to change the story is by showing new information, backed up by evidences, artefacts and photos.

Still, if one finds new information by way of oral tradition or hearsay, it may be published.

I understand that, per Wikipedia policy, such publications can be cited.

Therefore, both sources can co-exist in the page.

How do we structure the sentence given the issue raised on this?

My first suggestion, in my opinion, on how the wordings may be is neutral on any personal (mis) interpretation, while still informing readers about both sources of the origin of Nsibidi. CHI-Research (talk) 21:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Fwiw, I would support removing the 1912 Talbot reference since it is both dated and redundant. But again this is not a "negotiation of the form "you do this or I'll do this". Instead of repeatedly "threatening" to structure sentences similarly to elaborate on my sources actually present those sources here. Abecedare (talk) 21:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The reason I am stating "similarly" is to ensure that I conform to existing rules. basically, I am informing you that I will create a sentence to conform to the rules. I can go to different pages to check for other elaborations as an example in creating my texts. That is what I mean. I just want to know what conforms or not. The post on photos and artefacts, I did not know that it was not allowed. Thus, I am saying that I need to check other texts in the reference, as an example. Is that not allowed? CHI-Research (talk) 21:47, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

4. https://www.endangeredalphabets.net/alphabets/nsibidi/

5.

https://www.pulse.ng/lifestyle/food-travel/nsibidi-do-you-know-about-the-ancient-igbo-system-of-writing/65b16p0

6.

https://georgeakor.medium.com/nsibidi-the-ancient-african-script-that-inspired-wakandas-writing-system-57ed03b5bfd3

7.

https://modernnsibidiproject.com/index.html

8.

https://panafrocore.com/2024/03/20/nsibidi-the-ancient-symbolic-proto-writing-script-of-nigerias-ekpe-society/

9. https://www.iiste.org/Journals/index.php/ADS/article/viewFile/20440/20859 CHI-Research (talk) 22:14, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

As I await your response, I would like to update my suggestion to account for the following two sources.

1.

A Book by Pauline E. Aligwekwe:

The Continuity of Traditional Values in African Society: The Igbo of Nigeria

2.

Dryell, E. (1911): “Further notes on Nsibidi signs with their meanings from the Ikom district southern Nigeria” in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland Vol. XLI.

My updated suggestion will now read as follows:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people. An anthropological study in 1909 attributes the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbo people, even as archeological findings of Igbo Ukwu bronzes dating back to the 9th century bear marks of ancient Uli arts motifs (Aligwekwe,2008), a likely precursor to the Nsibidi motifs of the subgroups of Igbo people," confirming the findings (Dryell, 1911) that individual groups/subgroups in the Cross River region created their own uniquely Nsibidi motifs."

Let me know. Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 16:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Other Sources:

https://powerofafrica.com/tpost/prhymlb551-nsibidi-an-ancient-system-of-writing-of CHI-Research (talk) 21:49, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I could get up to 30 citations, including PHD thesis.The point is that they point o Igbo people or Ejagham people:

1.

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/semi.2010.061/html

2.

https://ndiigboworldwide.com/nsibidi/ CHI-Research (talk) 21:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

My suggestion has been updated to reflect that Macgregor's paper is an anthropological study:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people, even as an anthropological study in 1909 attribute the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbo people." 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 12:38, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. The Nwosu article (p. 286 and Note 2) is useful and I'll wait for Gawaon to weight in before commenting any further. The other references, to random blogs and websites, are not close to the expected standard of scholarly sources needed here; please value other editors time and use better discretion when listing other sources for review here. There is no rush. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 22:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I did not know how soon you needed the information. I will limit to peer-reviewed articles, at least 3-5, but there are many. CHI-Research (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Abecedare, thanks for helping to sort this out! I'll reply to the content questions tomorrow. Gawaon (talk) 22:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

All right, I'm back. CHI-Research, you have essentially suggested changing 'Macgregor recorded a "native tradition" attributing it' to 'an archeological study in 1909 attribute[s]'. I don't think we should do that because that was no archaeological study, and we shouldn't mislead our audience. All that Macgregor wrote regarding the origin is a single paragraph where he states that, according to a "native tradition", it came from the Uguakima or Uyanga (Igbo groups); the Uguakima in their turn said they had it from baboons. That's all there is to it. You know that, you've presumably read the paper and we have already discussed it on your talk page. Talbot, writing a few years later, simply called this an "interesting legend".

Abecedare, you suggested removing Talbot's 1912 book "since it is both dated and redundant". Well it's not essential, but I think it's good to have as long as we reference Macgregor's paper too (and why not?), since he wrote so shortly after Macgregor, tried to verify the latter's origin tale, and failed. His book is also the first published work to trace the script's origin to the Ekoi/Ejagham, for all I know. So I'd say it's historically interesting and good to have, unless we remove the old sources (both Talbot and Macgregor) completely.

The Nwosu paper is interesting and we could use the note 2 (on p. 301) as further source for Macgregor attributing the script to the Igbo, in addition to or possibly instead of the primary source. Otherwise the author seems to consider an origin among the Ekoi/Ejeagham as most likely – that's the only theory he covers in the main text (p. 286), while relegating the discussion of other suggested origins to that endnote. Within the endnote, there is – besides the Macgregor reference – little of substance that would suggest an Igbo origin, as far as I can see. He mentions somebody's "personal communication", but that's hardly an RS according to our standards. Another theory the author discusses, though "not necessarily to support it" (p. 287) is that the script originated among the Efik people, and in the endnote somebody suggests that the Efik may simply be considered an Igbo subgroup/spin-off. But that seems hardly relevant for the question of an actual Igbo origin, and Nwosu themselves treats the "Efik theory" as essentially just an interesting speculation, as far as I can see. Gawaon (talk) 07:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Point of correction. I mistakenly stated archeological instead of anthropological study.

It should therefore read as suggested "...an anthropological study.. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 12:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't sound like an improvement, I think the current (more specific) wording is fine. And Macgregor wasn't technically an anthropologist either. Gawaon (talk) 13:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The paper was published in "The Journal of Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland." That ought to settle it as an anthropological study. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 13:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

This book has a more elaborate explanation on the origin of Nsibidi in Igbo people.

The narrative is that an ancient visual communication art "ULI" may have influenced the some Nsibidi motifs of subgroups of Igbos in the Cross River region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uli_(design)

A Book by Pauline E. Aligwekwe:

The Continuity of Traditional Values in African Society: The Igbo of Nigeria

In the book, check the section entitled "Postulate on the Origin of Igbo" subsection C (Linguistic findings)

Information like tis may be added to the Igbo page too.

There are many books and PhD dissertations, and papers on the Igbo origin of Nsibidi, but it is not necessary to add all citations. Let us decide which ones to add.

By the way, the Efik (some claim they are the same as Ekoi and also actually a clan of Ibibio people) claims on Nsibidi ought to merit a space as well. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 14:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I would like you to pay attention that the ULI motifs was used on the Igbo Ukwu bronzes dating back to 9th century.

So, the ULI motifs may explain some uniquely Nsibidi motifs of subgroups of Igbos in the Cross River region.

This paper shows that different groups/subgroups created their own motifs:

Dryell, E. (1911): “Further notes on Nsibidi signs with their meanings from the Ikom district southern Nigeria” in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland Vol. XLI. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 14:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Typo Correction:

I would like you to pay attention that the ULI motifs WERE used on the Igbo Ukwu bronzes dating back to 9th century. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 14:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

As I await your response, I would like to update my suggestion to account for the following two sources.

1.

A Book by Pauline E. Aligwekwe:

The Continuity of Traditional Values in African Society: The Igbo of Nigeria

2.

Dryell, E. (1911): “Further notes on Nsibidi signs with their meanings from the Ikom district southern Nigeria” in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland Vol. XLI.

My updated suggestion will now read as follows:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people. An anthropological study in 1909 attributes the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbo people, even as archeological findings of Igbo Ukwu bronzes dating back to the 9th century bear marks of ancient Uli arts motifs (Aligwekwe,2008), a likely precursor to the Nsibidi motifs of the subgroups of Igbo people published by Macgregor," confirming findings (Dryell, 1911) that individual groups/subgroups in the Cross River region have their own Nsibidi motifs." 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 16:17, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your links, and I'll check that book out sooner or later, but frankly, for this article we have entirely enough. We can still tweak the wording and source selection a little, but otherwise we should be good here and I don't think any additional sources make much sense here. Everything else should go into the Nsibidi article – which is still in need of considerably clean-up after your POV pushing, I'm afraid. Gawaon (talk) 16:42, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Abecedare wanted me to provide more sources to back up the Igbo origin of Nsibidi, and suggest how the wordings in the page ought to be.

The book is a very useful source on showing the Igbo origin of Nsibidi, tying it intelligibly to ancient Uli motifs. The Igbo Ukwu bronzes, from 9th century, bear the Uli motifs, making a likely precursor of Nsibidi motifs.

The Dryell's paper (1911) is useful, because it shows that some Nsibidi motifs are unique to some subgroups. CHI-Research (talk) 16:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Macgregor and Aligwekwe perfectly belongs to the Igbo page. Because you did not want the Macgregor's source in the page, in the first instance, you should not revert my post and create a sentence on it. CHI-Research (talk) 17:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Macgregor and Aligwekwe perfectly belong in the Igbo page. Because you did not want the Macgregor's source in the page, in the first instance, you should not revert my post and create a sentence on it. CHI-Research (talk) 17:03, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• Quick comments:
  • @Gawaon:: good point on what Nwosu chooses to discuss in the main text of his paper and what he relegates to the endnotes. For this article, the former is more relevant with any details from the latter potentially include-able in the Nsibidi article.
  • (minor) I see your point about Talbot (1912) balancing MacGregor (1905) but my concerns is that it does not really support the sentence fragment it is attached to since a 1912 paper cannot attest to what is the mainstream scholarly opinion "now". Also the Nsibidi article may be a better venue to get into the timeline, evidence and reasoning behind the various origin theories with this article just laying out the conclusion(s). That said this is not a sticking point for me since we are talking about one additional citation that can be of use to the interested reader.
  • @CHI-Research:: The Continuity of Traditional Values in the African Society: The Igbò of Nigeria (2nd ed) is self-published via Xlibris and given the indisputably scholarly sources available on this topic, is not usable in article-space.

Abecedare (talk) 22:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

All right, I'll remove the Talbot and add the reference to Nwosu's article/endnote probably later today (unless you or somebody else here does it first). And thanks for the due diligence on Aligwekwe's book! Gawaon (talk) 05:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that Aligwekwe's book can be a reliable source given that she got her PHD from Sobornne University, taught in the University in Nigeria, teaching in the United States, professor of anthropology, and her book has featured at Cambridge University. Besides, the policy remains that citations do not have to be an "original research."

Besides, the book's relevance is to highlight that the ancient Uli arts motifs, found on the Igbo Ukwu bronzes, that are traceable to the 9th century, may have influenced the creation of Nsibidi motifs among Igbo subgroups, including the Arochukwu.

Apart from Aligwekwe's book, the link between Uli motifs and Nsibidi motifs among the Igbo people has been discussed elsewhere including here (check for the Ottenberg;s book for a detailed elaboration):

Harris, M. D. (2003). [Review of The Nsukka Artists and Nigerian Contemporary Art, by S. Ottenberg]. The International Journal of African Historical Studies, 36(1), 186–188. https://doi.org/10.2307/3559351

My point therefore is that if it is pointed out that Macgregor attributes the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbos, a SENTENCE informing readers that there is evidence that Uli motifs are a precursor to the Nsibidi motifs among Igbo subgroups. The citation can be Aligwekwe (on her recognition as an anthropologists), Ottenberg or both.

Let me know.

Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 14:04, 27 June 2024 (UTC)