User talk:Red-tailed hawk
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U.S. 250th gif
I've left a note at the U.S. 250th birthday about keeping the wonderful gif as its lead image. Given the quality of the gif, its defining attributes per the page topic which other images would have a hard time matching, and the fact that it's from the official Commission itself which is overseeing the 250th (as far as I know nobody from the Commission has complained that it is being misused). let's try to save this one. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- . If it were to come from the Commission, it would be in the public domain as a U.S. Federal Government work. But my understanding is that the image doesn't come from the United States Semiquincentennial Commission, but rather from an NGO. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- The video is from the official website of the Commission, please scan down the page. The extraction should be kept and used on the page (which actually has not other usable image than this one). Thanks, Randy Kryn (talk) 11:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe Allreet and Gwillhickers would have an interest in this question. Please take a look at the links and websites, the video portion does seem to be hosted on the Semiquincentennial Commission's official website. No reason to lose this "perfect" opening image to the U.S. 250th birthday page. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- The video is from the official website of the Commission, please scan down the page. The extraction should be kept and used on the page (which actually has not other usable image than this one). Thanks, Randy Kryn (talk) 11:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
ABC News RM
11,000 links to update! I have decided that this was a terrible idea, and we should both be trouted - you for proposing it, and me for closing it. (I haven't moved the article yet; I'm going to wait till all the links are updated) BilledMammal (talk) 07:01, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'll try to crank out the changes using WP:DISAMASSIST; will make the changes over the next couple of days. In the meantime, I'm going to move the page, since the tool requires the dab to be at the base before it allows that. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- RT Hawk, you might want to check BilledMammal's talk page before you jump on things. Drmies (talk) 00:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Noted. I've already moved the page to ABC News (United States), though if there is a close challenge coming I'll wait to move the dab to usurp the main page and hold off on the Disamassist. Thank you for alerting me to that. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'm about to head out, and I have no wish to "supervise" any part of the process, but it seems clear to me that the process needs to be redone. Thanks so much, Drmies (talk) 00:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do see that it's been taken to move review, so I'll leave it be until that closes. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'm about to head out, and I have no wish to "supervise" any part of the process, but it seems clear to me that the process needs to be redone. Thanks so much, Drmies (talk) 00:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Noted. I've already moved the page to ABC News (United States), though if there is a close challenge coming I'll wait to move the dab to usurp the main page and hold off on the Disamassist. Thank you for alerting me to that. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- RT Hawk, you might want to check BilledMammal's talk page before you jump on things. Drmies (talk) 00:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Can you please explain your action
I am rather confused as to how you decided I want Pbritti to renounce the Catholic faith. Did someone tell you this? Elinruby (talk) 02:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- ps I am removing the warning, which I believe is mistaken, but I would like an answer to that question if you don't mind, please Elinruby (talk) 02:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do not believe I asserted that you have. You pressed the editor on whether or not he has
answered the question about his affiliations with the Catholic Church
; regardless if he were to affirm that he were not Catholic (i.e. disavowing Catholicism) or if he responded that he is Catholic, it would not matter in terms of the underlying content dispute. Because Wikipedia does not require the former for his participation, your pressing him on this was unwarranted, and that sort of pressing should be avoided, as I noted on your talk page. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)- I do not believe that I can discuss what I believe is happening except at a noticeboard, so the misunderstanding is understandable. I just wanted to know if anyone had discussed this with you. But for the record: I am Catholic. I do not care if he is Sikh or Hindu or Muslim or Catholic himself. He needs to base his editing on RS and that is the issue here. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Elinruby (talk) 03:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Clarification
Just clarifying that you didn't get the notification because you've commented, you received a notification because since that comment a discussion you are involved in was added to the scope of the case. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ah ok. Thank you. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Let me know if you object but it seems to cover very similar ground and I was already talking to Clevermoss about it before you commented [1] (don't want it to seem personal, you know I respect the heck out of you). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's quite similar in scope; I agree that this sort of clarification would be helpful in the general sense, and listing more discussions where this occurs is more likely to get some sort of clarification one way or the other. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Let me know if you object but it seems to cover very similar ground and I was already talking to Clevermoss about it before you commented [1] (don't want it to seem personal, you know I respect the heck out of you). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
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I think you missed something
I moved my comment *back* to where Headbomb had moved it from.
I also disagree on how appropriate the hatting was, given the unproductive nature of the hatted remarks. Maybe you can explain that to me . At your leisure. For now, it is 40 degrees here and I have had endless edit conflicts just getting that much in, so I am wandering off to stand under the garden hose. Elinruby (talk) 03:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- When you made this comment on RSN, you disconnected a thread of comments (beginning with Moxy's comment) from the root message that they were responding to. This is not in line with WP:TPO, as it deprives them of the original context and also breaks formatting.
- If you intended to reply to this comment, you could start a new indented line below the others in the thread, as is typical in threaded discussion. If you intended to simply insert a top-line discussion item, then you could also insert it below, but without an indent.
- Please let me know if you have any further questions. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Clarification request closed
The Noleander clarification request, in which you may have been involved, has been closed and archived. The request was related to that case's principle 9, which states:
Editors are expected to refrain from making unnecessary references to the actual or perceived racial, religious, or ethnic background of fellow editors. Such references should be made only if they clearly serve a legitimate purpose. In the context of a noticeboard discussion or dispute resolution, it will rarely serve a valid purpose to seek to classify the participants in the discussion on this basis.
Among the participating Arbitrators, there was a rough consensus that this principle remains true with current policies and guidelines and that there is not an exemption from this principle for asserting that an editor has a conflict of interest. For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust 💬 05:40, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Your draft article, Draft:Wing-T (American football)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/48px-Information_icon4.svg.png)
Hello, Red-tailed hawk. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or draft page you started, "Wing-T".
In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.
Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. ✗plicit 14:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
topic ban
Seems like a mildly unfair ban. I fully understand the rules, and please see the link I posted to the talk page of nableezy if that's what you're referring to. I would appeal if I had wanted to. I think its pretty clear to anyone who reads my full statement that I understand the rules, specifically after a clarification was made which was not readily understandable previously. No hard feelings though :) JoeJShmo💌 02:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is fair; you were put on notice by ScottishFinnishRadish that future violations of the ECR would be met with sanctions, you still continued to violate it after admins clarified the scope of what was acceptable and advised you to edit in other areas. The only restriction that this ban imposes that is not imposed by the extended-confirmed restriction is that you are no longer permitted to make requested edits to talk pages in the Arab-Israeli conflict area until such a time that you are extended-confirmed. I think that giving you clearer guidance on this is a way to prevent future violations of the ECR, until such a time that the ECR no longer applies to you by virtue of you being extended-confirmed. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- for the record, it hadn't been clarified at all, there was actually a discussion going on about it at village pump. I had not been informed by SFR that common practice was to treat even explanatory responses as violations until after this Arb discussion, and if he had insinuated it somewhere I didn't pick up on that. I also didn't know that we fall back on policy in the case of doubt in a commonly accepted exception, and even if I had, I didn't realize the edit request exception was not actually laid out in policy. In light of all the above, I would posit that I'm much more aware of the exact rules now, and a ban is, as I said, mildly unfair. Thinking about it more though, it's alot to follow, and I could've made all this clearer in my statement, so I don't blame you for banning me. JoeJShmo💌 02:41, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- This topic ban should have been longer term, so they could demonstrate that they would not be disruptive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- My two cents- Considering the ban was intended, and justified by RTH, because of a concern in understanding the rules of EC, it would be very arbitrary to decide to give a ban when that concern no longer exists. New justification would have to be provided for a concern in disruptive editing. JoeJShmo💌 09:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Uh huh, it lasted all of a few minutes/edits to reach 500 and then promptly began to edit the topic area in a very POVish manner. Since a lot of these edits were gained as a result of arguing about why ARBECR shouldn't apply, I think a counter reset would be good. Selfstudier (talk) 09:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- What you call arguing, I actually took as learning. And your characterization of my edits as POVish is subjective; I believe they were fair and good edits, most of which will probably be put back in place after a discussion. However, I do think that in the future for the sake of saving time I will open a discussion first, as I'm learning that even the most obviously warranted edits will be immediately reverted if it is not in favor of a certain POV. JoeJShmo💌 10:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Selfstudier At least. Something needs to be done and I don't understand how they could have not been clear after all the discussion. Doug Weller talk 10:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hey Doug. Would you mind pointing out what you believe I am unclear on that has already been discussed? Vague statements are hard for me to respond to. JoeJShmo💌 11:07, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have topic banned JoeJShmo for 6 months and 1000 edits. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- And I think that topic ban is reasonable. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:20, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
What in the?
[2] Am I missing something or will this editor never get it? Doug Weller talk 07:37, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am. They rushed to get EC, then edited in the topic area. Doug Weller talk 09:12, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Uh huh, see above. Selfstudier (talk) 10:00, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
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Helping to disentangle interpolated comments
Courtesy link: Template:Interpolated comment
Courtesy link: Template:uw-middlepost
Hi, Red-tailed hawk. I noticed you raising the issue here about talk page comments placed in the middle of other editors' comments, making it hard to follow who said what and replied what to whom; so thanks for that. I know you'll understand what I'm talking about, when I say that I sometimes try to unscramble such bollixed up comments, and it's a tedious and thankless business. But not doing it can be worse, and lead to misunderstandings. Anyway, I finally got tired of how tedious it was, and created template {{interpolated comment}} to help me address the "fix-it" part of the issue, for certain types of such bollixed comments. (There is also {{uw-middlepost}}, if you want to add something to a user's Talk page about it.)
There are various ways to try to deal with interpolated comments, including removing them (but that may piss off the person who added them) or trying to regroup them and put them all together in one place (sometimes possible, but really tricky, and error-prone, and also subject to getting an edit conflict, and then you have to start all over again), and finally, you can just leave the interpolated parts in there, but highlight or set them off in some way that makes it absolutely clear who said what. This template is based on this last approach: it helps you highlight the interpolated bits, so they stand out as not part of the original editor's comment, and identifies who wrote what. If that approach might work for you some of the time, you might want to have a look at it.
The template is not the simplest one in the world (not the hardest, either) and takes only one of many possible approaches, but if you have chosen the "leave-it-in-place-and-identify" approach, it will make the really tedious part a little bit easier. Have a look and see what you think; I hope it might be helpful to you. Would love to hear your thoughts, any ideas you might have about how to make it better, and easier to use. Please address template-specific comments, bugs, enhancement requests to Template talk:Interpolated comments (ditto for {{uw-middlepost}}), but I'd love to hear your general impressions, questions, or feedback either here or at my Talk page. Thanks once again for being willing to take on the tricky business of dealing with interpolated comments; they are no fun, that's for sure. Mathglot (talk) 02:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
MfD
I have replied to your query. I hope you will understand the context now. Nickps refuses to show me any "unsourced" negative information in the draft article. No one does. Why is that so hard to do? Maybe because I have sourced everything very carefully, so they wikilawyer instead?
Maybe for the same reason Trump lost a lawsuit that was ONLY about the pee tape rumor, the subject of my draft article? Another lawsuit[3][4] ONLY about that rumor was also lost by the litigant. In that last case, Judge Cooper even showed that the litigant had changed his story to Mueller and likely lied to Mueller. First he described to Mueller how he told Cohen he had "stopped" the salacious tapes of Trump with prostitutes. Then he changed his story later and told Mueller the tapes were "fake". Judge Cooper showed that the claim they were "fake" was not a true statement. That was a new story, with no evidence. The litigant had always treated them as real, just as Cohen and Trump had done.
BTW, this rumor is not about the 2016 Steele dossier allegation per se. It's about the same story, but from when it started in 2013, and Cohen's 2019 testimony that he, Trump, and David Pecker knew about it in late 2013 or early 2014 and tried to suppress the rumor and find the tapes. That effort continued, with the help of others close to Trump and Cohen for several years before the Steele dossier was a twinkle in Hillary Clinton's eye. Neither Steele nor his sources invented that rumor. They only retold it. That really pissed off Trump, because until the dossier was published on January 10, 2017, the public did not know of what was described as an "open secret" in Moscow. That is very well "sourced" negative information, IOW not a BLP violation when properly attributed.
There are several things to keep in mind: (1) We do not know for sure if the pee tape exists; (2) We know that the pee tape rumor is old, very real, was known by "many" in a closed group around Trump, and did not start with Steele and his dossier; (3) James Comey and a number of others believe it's quite possible the pee tape does exist, and (4) that some RS allege it may be part of the reason Trump has never criticized Putin. That is all sourced in the draft article.
As for me, I don't know. I just know that very GNG notable part of the "sum of all human knowledge" is not covered here, it easily passes GNG, and there are myriad very RS about it. My draft article is not yet ready for mainspace. It needs more work, especially to make it more NPOV compliant with more attribution from the sources. It's all properly sourced. I also do not want it publicized, and the MfD is very counterproductive in that regard. And last but not least, there are many enemies of the subject who do not want it told at Wikipedia. That's unwikipedian behavior. We are supposed to document what RS say and not oppose content because we "don't like it".
If there are BLP violations in the draft article, I want to fix them, but no one will provide an example. We do not MfD or AfD drafts or articles because a BLP violation exists somewhere in it. We follow WP:PRESERVE (a policy) and fix the violation. These people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
See my request at Please provide evidence of BLP violations. Someone needs to get Nickps to provide evidence or withdraw his accusation, close the ANI thread, as it has devolved into a kangaroo court with piling on (some likely from WPO, where they were discussing it today), and apologize. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your detailed reply. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
The MfD has been closed as "no consensus". That's a good solution. Now that kangaroo court at ANI needs to be closed and Nickps trouted and warned not to abuse ANI and to provide evidence for his accusations. That is very uncivil behavior. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 06:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
ANI closure
The ANI has been closed, but that doesn't stop the personal attacks immediately afterwards. I have mentioned the possibility for civil discussion here: User talk:Valjean/Rumor#Closures at two drama boards. There I would be allowed to explain, unlike in an ANI or MfD kangaroo court where I am not allowed to defend myself against personal attacks or present evidence, as that's considered bludgeoning.
We need to discuss this where there can be an open exchange of ideas in a civil manner. Editors obviously disagree about the interpretation of certain PAG. If discussions there don't resolve anything, then discussions on policy and guideline pages may need to occur, but all of this is disruptive to my work, with the promised help from Tryptofish, to make the draft more compliant for mainspace. It's not ready yet, and we should be allowed to work in peace without attacks, harassment, and disruption.
After repeated attempts in the MfD to get someone to provide evidence of any BLP violations in the draft article, I finally got this honest answer:
- "Since Valjean wanted to know what the BLP violations were, I will try to answer, knowing that my answer will not resolve the controversy, and will not answer Valjean's question of how to resolve the BLP violations. There are no specific BLP violations in the draft or sandbox or whatever it is, so that the problem cannot be dealt with by editing. The problem is that the page in question is an entirely negative page about a living person..."[5]
"There are no specific BLP violations in the draft..." That's a stunning admission, after all the accusations and abuses of MfD and ANI. No wonder no one would respond to my requests for evidence. They just labeled my requests "bludgeoning" because they just DONTLIKEIT, so they wikilawyer instead, and now they are continuing the attacks. This borders on harassment to prevent me from doing what is officially allowed in "personal user namespace". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:12, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Noted. Is there a specific request you have regarding this? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 01:32, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Let's wait and see if they escalate this. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:55, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Revisit
I've just caught up on the Uyghur genocide move, which I was surprised by, and which I also now think was quite poorly reasoned. I'm quite interested to hear your take on what happened there and where the disconnect lies here between the sources and the community. My thoughts can be seen here. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)