Talk:U2

Template:Maintained

Flag

Would anybody mind awfully if I took the flag down? I recently removed the Union Jack from The Clash and I think the same argument I used there applies here as well. Flags seem more appropriate on say national football teams and the like. U2 are a national symbol of Ireland, but I do not see them as being particularly nationalistic; indeed they are internationalists. --Guinnog 20:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

good idea. 'lower' the flag please. Merbabu 11:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Done it. --Guinnog 17:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes I actually DO mind and I'm putting the flag back up. It seems pretty "dumb" to say the least to take the flags off of the Clash's and U2's whilst leaving these high profile bands's infoboxes with their flag. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]

Regards, Billtheking 16:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Well done for listing all those examples, but there's the small matter that we don't use Wikipedia itself as a reference point. - Dudesleeper 20:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Snow patrol also has the flag [19], If you where truly interested you would take that flag off, seeing how its controversial in its own country and not even official, with half the population pretty much hating it.

Dudesleeper, it is obviously some kind of wikipolicy to place flagicons in the infoboxes with famous bands. ATM I have seen no real/valid reasons as to why the flag should be removed. The reason why it should be up there is to illustrate the bands origins in an aesthetic way. That is why it is obviously done at ALL the other bands. Billtheking 08:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I cannot find any such policy and I don't find it aesthetic. On the other hand I did find WP:FLAG. Furthermore your edit seems to be against consensus. --Guinnog 08:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

So Bono, The Edge, Adam Clayton, and Larry Mullen, Jr. all can have flags on their pages but U2 cant? Are you going to remove all the flags of all the famous bands pages, or are you just going to keep doing it at U2? Billtheking 08:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

You speak of consensus, yet on ALL the other prolific bands pages there is the obvious consensus of the flags being there. As to calling you dumb, that was not my intent and I apologise, it just struck me as a weird idea. Billtheking 08:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

"indeed they are internationalists." That doesn't say a whole lot, RHCP see themselves as Californians, yet you don't see the bear in their infobox right? Billtheking 08:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about RHCP's flag here but about whether this article on U2 should have one. The state of one article should not influence the state of another, unless a policy or guideline exists to point in a particular direction. I'm not convinced that is the case here. Wikipedia shouldn't be self-referential or operate on precedent, but on consensus formed by discussion. See also this. --Guinnog 09:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

hear, hear - we are not talking about any other article. As i said in my removal, precedence the worst justification for anything. Yes, you are correct - people's support for removing something from this article, doesn't mean they are interested in removing it from others, nor is their any obligation to do so. Merbabu 09:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

You honestly believe that is worthy of an encyclopædia? Do you know the term uniformity and what it means for Wikipedia? Billtheking 10:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Believe what is "worthy of an encyclopedia"? Look at it this way... should we do something, no matter how pointless, simply because it has been done elsewhere? If it adds no value then it should go - even if it does no harm. It's a flag. What benefit does it give the article?Merbabu 11:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Why do I get the idea that it is not a good idea for the lay-out and contents infoboxes (of similar articles) to be changed at random?? Shouldn't we have uniformity? As I said, the flag illustrates in an aesthetic way the country of origin. Billtheking 11:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's aesthetic at all. Flags in the infobox are too prominent and draw the eye away from the text. - Dudesleeper 13:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems you are in the minority seeing how pages from American presidents to Kofi Annan and Bono have flags, do you see them being removed? No, but for some freakish reason 3 persons here seem to dislike the Irish flag on this page. Billtheking 13:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

We seem to have a problem getting you past comparing with other articles. Therein lies the problem. - Dudesleeper 13:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Edit conflict: :Please discuss this article. Yes, i think changing other U2-related articles would be a good idea, but I have refrained from this as no doubt it would be pointed out that this is a violation of WP:POINT. Merbabu 13:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Seeing how WP:FLAG is not a policy, isn't there some sort of request for a new policy or something alike on band userboxes? Billtheking 13:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no policy idea that I know of, but it would be a good idea on not using the flags for the infoboxes. It will bring up issues that are certainly not needed on Wikipedia. We already know where they are from, why need a flag to denote it. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hear hear. I've attempted to kickstart a more centralised debate at this page and I hope you may feel able to join it. --Guinnog 19:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Now, I have never heard U2s music let alone bought their records but I am rather intrigued by them.I have heard that the parents of two members are British -the parents were 1) a professor of English who took up a post at Trinity College Dublin 2)another moved his family to Ireland to become head of training for Air Lingus-he had been head of training for British Airways which meant -at that time- he would have been originally a senior Royal Air Force officer.The Mount Temple Comprehensive was a British style school and was known locally (wrongly) as The British School At this school they met two British boys from Northern Ireland -the Mullens whose grandfather had been a Bishop in the Irish Church of England .Paul Hewson had a father from Northern ireland and a Catholic mother.He obviously preferred a British style education to an Irish catholic one. The rock music they played was at that time overwhelmingly a British creation I am puzzled therefore why they are so much considered an "Irish "band.They have more connection with Britain than Ireland surely ? If you disagree you must admit they cant really be called an Irish band -"international " is a reasonable choice

It is also strange that nothing is ever written about this,or their families.Every one knows everything about the Beatles and many other pop groups but nothing is available about their families or brothers?sisters? most presumably living and working happily in England ? If anyone has any information I would love to hear it. I am interested partly because these are boys from frankly at that time,rather snobby professional backgounds and very British at that-yet we never hear about them-its all kept a secret I have sometimes wondered if the U2 name -of the famous spy plane-was connected to the idea that their families were actually spying for the British in some way...Its a thought!!!Aberdale 21:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

List of Grammy awards

This was recently added.[20] I don't think it is necessary. In fact, is there already such a list on wikiepdia? If not, it can be created and the article directed there.Merbabu 11:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Campaigning section is now LONG AND BORING

I've expanded the campaigning section as was requested during the FA nomination. Please give it a look-see and ADD REFERENCES for me (only fair, because chances are I've added a reference to your writing, if you've written for this article!). Wikipedia brown 02:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is VERY long. I'd say almost too long. While this would suit an article on Bono I think it overwhelms other more important musical aspects. Ie, there is only 1 or two short paragraphs on Acthung Baby and The Joshua Tree. What they did as a band is actually quite limited, apart from playing many benefit concerts over the years. I am not sure though that just listing them is the way to go. For example, I suggest the Nicaragua visit should go in the Joshua Tree bit as it's significance was not really campaigning but its influence on Bono had a huge impact on the Joshua Tree (so he reports anyway!). PLease don't misunderstand me, this section is a whole better now after the expansion and no doubt involved a lot of work/time (THANKS!), but it probably needs some refinement and polish. I will have a look soon myself. Merbabu 00:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind if the solo work section of campaigning was sent to the individual articles, and the other stuff tightened up a bit. That should make it short enough that it doesn't overwhelm the article. As for the Nicaragua visit influencing JT, I think there really needs to be that section called "Style and Themes" where it is discussed or this should be mentioned under the Joshua Tree subheading of the History section. The reason is that I think this section should be about U2's humanitarian work and should not have any specific information as to how their campaigning or travels affected their music. By the way, no need to say thanks Merbabu, the satisfaction of having written something that somebody someday may find useful is why I do this. Wikipedia brown 06:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Current FAC

This is the second time this article has been nominated in only a few weeks. Both times it has been done unilaterally and without consulting other editors. It is far to premature and i doubt very much it will get FA. If it does, then FA is meaningless. On the other hand, the current FAC is getting a lot of useful comments and attention, the majority of which i believe should be implemented. (while the peer review process didn't get much feedback at all). Please consult other editors before nomination again. thanks Merbabu 02:55, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I really should've consulted folks before nominating. Looking back, there were two reasons I didn't think to do it. #1, someone had nominated earlier without any discussion, and #2, the comments that came from that FA nomination led me to believe that by just fixing the problems highlighted there, it would be clockwork to get it through the process. I wish more people had weighed in in that first nomination to highlight the structural flaws with the article. If they had, I wouldn't be so quick to nominate it again. Anyways, I was a bit too overzealous (and naive in thinking that it was so simple to make an article a FA), and for that I apologize. Wikipedia brown 06:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

No need to apologise. I will respond further in the next day or so. I think we can get it there, but needs lots of work. At least the two FAC's (particularly the most recent one) did give us good ideas. Merbabu 04:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

There seems to be a fair bit of disagreement over what the info box should contain. I have two issues:

• My opinion is that the info box should show the band members main roles. This is fundamental information – I’d suggest even more so than a list of albums or formation dates. Thus, such a prominent position is justified. There is, to my knowledge, no other mention of this in the article. The only justification so far given is “every other article is like this” – well, precedence is the dumbest of all reasons – why should we do something nonsensical simply cos others do it? Also, a recent reason for its omission was that people "disagree" on it content. its amazing what conformity (as distinct from a valid reason) can justify.
• However, I do not believe that Bono’s harmonica playing should be there. This a rare thing when considered over the band’s whole career. I can only think of 3 songs where the harmonica is used. One of those songs hasn’t been played for almost 20 years, one was recently resurrected and then put back out to pasture (Running to Stand Still) and Desire, well it’s common enough but doesn’t mean that Bono’s harmonic playing is actually a notable role for him. He also plays tambourine or maracas on the odd song, and both Adam and Larry play keyboards on one song on the last tour. I doubt anyone suggests we should put those in. The inclusion of the harmonica gives it way to much emphasis, giving the wrong impression. Wikipedia does not have to list EVERY fact, only NOTABLE facts. Its inclusion pro--Merbabu 04:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Their main roles should go in the main text ("vocalist Bono, guitarist The Edge..."), as is the standard elsewhere. Their less-prominent roles should go in their own articles. Your going with "common sense" over the infobox guidelines opens it up to abuse, which is largely what you're doing. - Dudesleeper · Talk 04:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, accusing good faith editors of "abuse" is not the most effective way of influencing them. Perhaps you should make the changes to the main article, rather than simple deletions. having said that, precedence is still the lousiest of justificationsMerbabu 04:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The article was fine as it was until you had your brainwave. Unfortunately, your gratification over your brainwave is clouding your correct thinking. I've stated my case (based on protocol), so I'll delete as necessary. 'Night. ;) - Dudesleeper · Talk 04:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

My 'brainwave'? I'm not sure what you are referring to. Merbabu 05:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

There's no reason to simply put "vocalist", "guitarist", etc. in the main article and have nothing in the infobox that more accurately defines the band members' roles. Even in most of the bands' CD booklets, the roles that are listed in the infobox are as they are listed in the booklets (minus Bono's guitar-playing, which isn't very crucial). I don't see the big deal that Dudesleeper has with keeping the specific roles within the infobox. I suggest he finds something better to do with his time rather than sitting at his computer and throwing a hissy fit when someone touches "his" precious infobox. Cry about it, seriously. - RattleandHum 04:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Influence section lacking?

there's a list of artists that have made cover versions of their songs, presumably the one's who's covers were a bit more famous or well known, yet, no where does the article mention mary j. blige's collaboration with u2 with 'one' which charted pretty well.... any explaination? Jgrizzy89 04:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It may be notable in its own right, but is it really notable to the story of U2 and hence to this article? Merbabu 05:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Is the cover version of The Chimes notable? Because if it is, than the Mary J. Blige cover version definitely is. Especially because The Chimes are seriously only known for about two songs. Plus the fact that Blige won Grammy Awards three times and is widely known as the "Queen of Hip-Hop Soul". That seems more a bit more influential. However, The Chimes' cover version did go to number one on the chart, I think it might still be worth noting U2's influence stretches even to R&B with someone with high credentials in that realm... It's up to whoever else feels it good to add. I will not add it if there is any controversy over it... U2 is definitely not mine and I will not make that kind of executive decision... : ) Jgrizzy89 04:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

duly added (although, we need to monitor that only notable performers go in there - not every high school band and church group who ever covered a U2 song - lol) Merbabu 04:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Although it would be fun to laugh at some of the crappier covers that are out their (With Or Without You by the Christian Rap-Duo GRITS) - I think it would take forever or be near impossible to do that... Jgrizzy89 04:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Need to come up with a consistent format for citing U2 by U2

I see:

McCormick (ed), Neil (2006). U2 by U2. London: HarperCollinsPublishers, pp.46-48. ISBN 0-00-719668-7.

U2 Limited (2006). U2 by U2. London: HarperCollinsPublishers, 151. ISBN 0-00-719668-7.

Adam Clayton:U2 Limited (2006). U2 by U2. London: HarperCollinsPublishers, p.147. ISBN 0-00-719668-7.

The Edge U2 Limited (2006). U2 by U2. London: HarperCollinsPublishers, 151. ISBN 0-00-719668-7.

Bono, The Edge, Adam Clayton, Larry Mullen Jr U2 by U2, pg. 249, 2006, Harper Collins, ISBN 0-06-077675-77 (mine, oops)

These are all the same book. Since it is listed as a "source", can't we change all of these to "McCormick (ed), 2006, pg#"? Wikipedia brown 01:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, very good point. it was pointed out in the FAC that since these books are referenced in full in the general links section, that they only need referencing like this: McCormick , Neil (ed), (2006) p. 6 Merbabu 11:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Badges

I'm not sure I didn't mention before and you guys dumped it, but U2's first product was a set of badges ordered from Better Badges in the UK in 78, saying "could happen to anyone" They are illustrated on this page. At Better Badges at the time, we ran under the slogan Image As Virus - Disease As Cure an informal punk equivalent of the GFDL. Bands submitted artwork, ordered a few, and then we disposed of as many as possible, and encouraged reproduction. These designs were very much in that spirit. Joly (ex=BB) Wwwhatsup 11:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sound Files

Sound files that are here should be chosen to directly support what is being described in the article - they should not be chosen simply cos they are great or very famous songs. They should contribute context to the written information, not be there to show off U2's most famous songs.

We have four sound files of which i think two are a good, supportive choices. ie, Sunday Bloody Sunday and Vertigo are both representative of the hard hitting sound strived for on their albums. Furthermore, SBS has that political flavour of the War album while Vertigo has that "boys and their rock'n'roll" sound to it.

The other two, Pride and One, although great songs, are not good choices. Being the most conventional U2 sound of their respective albums, they do NOT showcase the new sounds, ie the basic idea, of either of these albums. I suggest they be changed. For the Unforgettable Fire, I suggest "A Sort of Homecoming", or "The Unforgettable Fire". They are both more representative of what is being said about that album. As for Achtung Baby, One doesn't represent that album's mood like "Zoo Station" or "The Fly", or maybe even "mysterious Ways".

Does anyone know how to create new music files? --Merbabu 12:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with you. I think "Zoo Station" would be a wonderful track to represent Achtung Baby especially since it's the intro track to the album and thus represents quite an abrupt turning point from their 80s albums. Not sure about Unforgettable Fire, maybe the title track or perhaps even MLK! I definitely think we need a track from Joshua Tree as well, maybe "Still haven't found what I'm looking for" or Streets.

I've never unfortunately produced an ogg file. Kristbg had created some of the other ones, perhaps we can delicately supplicate him to help out on this. Wikipedia brown 19:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to work on it this week. I suppose "The Unforgettable Fire" and "The Fly" would be the best choices - both were singles, both are representative. --Kristbg 12:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they are the best choices I think. They relate to the articles. The Fly is probably better than Zoo Station as although they both have that industrial sound, The Fly has more of a dance feel to it. Many thanks Merbabu 12:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Just a question for those of you who are a part of this discussion... Are you thinking of creating/attaching a music/ogg file for each one of the band's albums? If so, I would think that I Will Follow, Gloria, Lemon/Numb, Gone, and Beautiful Day would represent each one of those albums pretty well. If not, 'twas only a question :) Jgrizzy89 20:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

And for The Joshua Tree, I would think that With or Without You would be the best showcase of that album... just a thought Jgrizzy89 20:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest not - four files is ample. Merbabu 20:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Done! However, I couldn't figure out how to keep the text box in that section with the new sound sample without cluttering everything up, so I removed it. Maybe we could put that quote into the section text? --Kristbg 18:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"Pride" is worth including for its historical context because it was the band's first American Top 40 hit. The page should also have one of their earliest singles, and definitely something from The Joshua Tree.

No, not necessarily. Four files is ample so you have to chose carefully. The four shown clearly represent important stages of the bands development. Putting Pride or Joshua tree track in is basically saying "look at how big U2 are". Merbabu 22:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

PS, thanks to Kirstbg for the new files!!! Merbabu 22:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Uh, you can have a number of sound files as long as they fulfill Fair Use guidelines. There can definitely be more than four if need be. Part of fulfilling Fair Use is the use of the clips for commentary. Yes, that commentary can include "this is here because it was the first single from the album and their first American #1 hit". Look at how Pixies, Sex Pistols, and The Smashing Pumpkins handle soundclips. It doesn't have to be just "this is what they sound like". WesleyDodds 03:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

This may be pushing it but I think it'd be a pretty good idea to include a song from every album, to offer a piece from every U2 sound-period -- every U2 album, especially after their first three albums (which were pretty post-punk) has its' own sound. What do you guys think...? RattleandHum 04:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Probably not every album (I personally think you can cover the Boy/October period with just one clip), but listing notable songs as well as emblematic songs would be helpful. WesleyDodds 05:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

You have a point...perhaps for the Boy/October period, we can put up "I Will Follow". For The Joshua Tree, I think "Where The Streets Have No Name" would be pretty good..."Desire" for Rattle and Hum, "Lemon" for Zooropa, "Discotheque" or "Staring at the Sun" for Pop, either one of the four singles from All That You Can't... ("Beautiful Day", "Stuck in a Moment You Can't Get Out Of", "Elevation", "Walk On"). Should "Window in the Skies" be included? Any other idea? RattleandHum 16:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Especially since the direction U2 took after Achtung Baby on each album was very different from the preceding one. But truthfully, I don't know if a representation of every change would be necessary for people trying to get a taste or a type of representation of U2's 'general' sound. If someone wanted it for anything else, like purely to hear their sound scape, can there just be a page of samples? I don't even know if that's possible under the 'fair use' policy, but I'm just throwing it out into cyberspace. Jgrizzy89 05:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Can't do a separate page for soundclips. However, we can create a new section that discusses the band's sound and influences (which we should do). Look at the one I made over at The Smashing Pumpkins for an example. WesleyDodds 05:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

We could start by getting actual comments by the band as their influences, then work through some critics' (widespread) thoughts and opinions on style, and then pull what ever else we can muster, it might be a while before it's actually up to par though... I'm on board though! Jgrizzy89 05:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

There are other ways to improve this article without plastering it with ugly and awkward sound files. To have one for each album is just pointless, and it is much more pointless to simply put the hits/singles here as suggested a few posts above. This music is everywhere, this is an encyclopedia, not a juke box. If we MUST have sound files, the ones currently there (SBS, UF, The Fly, Vertigo) are well chosen cos they are representative of major changes and themes outlined in the article. Posting Streets, Staring At The Sun and Elelvation and Windows is just a listing of singles and adds no value. If you MUST put them in the song pages. If any are missing then maybe Mofo or something that is representative of U2 at that time, and not just cos it is a 'cool song'. But then, 4 is already ample and the article will only become weighed down. Merbabu 00:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Word Usage

I don't necessarily think the word usage for the statement under their activism section that says: "The ONE Campaign, has been shaped in no small way by his efforts and vision" is worded properly... Couldn't it just say: "The ONE Campaign, has been shaped by his efforts and vision." ? It just sounds better... Any objections? Jgrizzy89 05:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I went ahead and made the change. Since I wrote this section, I don't think there have been many changes. I think it's a good idea to review it (shorten it if possible) and maybe even move the Solo work stuff to separate articles, since it doesn't really apply to the band. Wikipedia brown 16:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Instruments, and why they shouldn't be listed in the "members" section of the infobox

This has to be spelled out, apparently. From the Infobox musical artist template (italicised emphasis my own):

Current_members (groups): Current members of the group, listed in order of joining with no other notation than names.

- Dudesleeper · Talk 15:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Thinking RattleandHum's input on the matter will be minimal to say the least due to his/her affinity for removing any kind of conversation put his/her way.[21]

but why keep deleting anyone's further input WITHIN the article, listing full instrumentation? yes, true, let us keep the info clear of it, but let's have a compromise, wouldn't you agree? what has been put anyway is what appears in their CD booklets, there really is no reason to delete it. 69.182.90.72 21:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Musical styles and themes

Guys, I haven't seen much in the way of activity on this page in the last couple of days, so in order to stir things up a bit (I do love playing the role of the rabblerouser), I've added a first stab at a styles/themes section. Please feel free to add, refine, and remove detail as you see fit. I will add references shortly. Hope to see some constructive edits made to this much-needed section! Wikipedia brown 07:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedia articles are not blogs.

A cucumber is not the same as a pickle. So what? What does this mean? Please elaborate. (and sign your posts with 4 tildes). Thanks. Wikipedia brown 04:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Article moving up in google rankings / main picture

Just noticed that the article is now the second non-google link in a Google search. It used to be third under atu2.com. We're moving on up. Just wish we had a better main picture (with Larry actually playing drums). Speaking of which, I found this (potentially better) picture on http://www.u2-vertigo-tour.com/tourpictures/. Unfortunately you can't see Adam's face and it's not as high res as the one that's there. Please let me know if you think this would make a better picture, and I'll email the guy who took it to see if he would creative commons license it. Otherwise, I was thinking we could splice together a bunch of pictures of each bandmember. Thoughts? Wikipedia brown 19:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

That's a great photo (except for the fact that Adam's face is virtually blocked...yes, I'm that nuerotic, hahaha...); shows the energy of the band live, which is a crucial part of their staying power. The current picture is blurry and rather dull...I vote for this photograph as the main picture, can it be done?

RattleandHum 22:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, in a fit of utter uber-boldness, I changed the main picture to one provided to me by Zachary Gillman through email (sorry it's a different one than the one above that you seemed to like RattleandHum!). I think it too is a wonderful pictures showing all 4 band members (faces intact), playing their regular instruments. Kudos to Zack for the great eye and camerawork. Anyways, I've uploaded it, and I'd appreciate it if anyone can tell me if I used the wrong tags. Basically, Zack asks only to be credited if the picture is used. Please let me know what you think!!! Wikipedia brown 05:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Good job, although I do find myself wondering what is up with Bono's hat. WesleyDodds 02:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is that old, shitty picture back up? It's so blurry, it's awful.

RattleandHum 04:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Some Wikipedia image-nazi deleted the image because I only had permission from the author to use the image on Wikipedia and not anywhere. I've sent an email to the photographer asking for such permission, but he has yet to respond. I hope I didn't piss him off with my incessant emails. I'm very discouraged also by how much time they gave me to get permission before deleting my image ... less than 24 hours after someone highlighted the problem. Wikipedia brown 14:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we could direct them here. --Kristbg 22:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Kristbg, you can lead a horse to water, but can you make him drink? Anyways, I've re-uploaded the picture after Luigi30 so kindly and benevolently deleted it, and I've changed the page. I went ahead and uploaded 3 other pictures provided to me by Mr. Gillman. Please take a look, and let me know if you'd prefer any of these to the one currently there:

Band with Larry playing keyboards

Higher-res version of picture posted before (Can't see Adam's face)

Bluish lighting, but potentially better than the current one (audience in front is visible)

Wikipedia brown 01:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd pick the third one... but maybe we could crop it so the band wouldn't appear so small in the thumbnail. --Kristbg 11:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Third one for me too - maybe we need to cut out Edge and shift him a bit more to the right and then crop! ;-) Merbabu 12:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I like that one too, but the band looks kinda small (and kinda blue) ... check it out at my sandbox. Wikipedia brown 00:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I still like the third one. But now I see the MSG pic is back up... this ends the discussion, I suppose? --Kristbg 01:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

No Kristbg, the first picture from Mr. Gillman is still there. I can still change it to the one shown in my sandbox above if you guys think that is much better. Wikipedia brown 14:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh, actually I think the current one looks better. The band doesn't look so tiny when in reduced size, and you can clearly see everyone's faces (except Larry, but at least he's behind the drums...) --Kristbg 20:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Stevie Wonder now has 22 Grammys too

Stevie Wonder now has 22 Grammys after this year's Grammy awards (he won for best collaboration with Tony Bennett, which interestingly enough was up against Mary J Blige's rendition of One with U2). This means that U2 is now tied for 1st. Wikipedia brown 06:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Then maybe we need to say that 'no other artist has more' or something like that. Merbabu 07:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Changed to Merbabu's suggestion. Wikipedia brown 05:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Single releases in discography?

Wouldn't it make sense to have the single releases in the discography section as well? I am not much into editing music articles, so I honestly don't know. -- RichiH 11:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The discography there is intended as a summary. If you go to U2 discography article (linked in the article) you'll see that is a mountain of singles. Thus, best to have them on a seperate page. Merbabu 12:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :) -- RichiH 12:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

U2 @ Counterpunch

The political website Counterpunch.org carry articles that often critique U2 & Bono's social activism. I feel the need to add this 67.53.78.15 04:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ready to be featured?

See above. 212.85.12.94 11:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it's been up two times already in 3 months (see records). While it has come a long way since then thanks to maybe 2 or 3 editors, there are still things that need to be done. There is much unnecesary info, but much missing too. But, you do inspire me to get on and do the work necessary. Watch this space. Merbabu 12:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

U2 are?

U2 are a rock band from Dublin, Ireland. Shouldn't it be U2 is a rock band from Dublin, Ireland?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ootmc (talk • contribs) 20:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for your concern, and thank you for not editing the article itself. You're using the talk page the way it should be used! Band names are plural nouns in British English. U2 are a "collective" rather than a "thing" in British English ( and also Irish English, which is why it's used in this article ). For example: In America you would say "It is" and in Britain and Ireland you would say "They are" in place of "U2". I hope that clears it up!--JUDE ^talk 20:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Either way, my view is there are more important things to get hung up about. I used to revert any moves away from the British plural form, but i just ignore now any moves back and forth as long as they don't interefere with any other part of the article. Save your efforts for something else. :) --Merbabu 01:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh I'm sorry :). I didn't edit anything. I was just explaining the difference. I didn't mean to start anything serious. I understand that there are more important things, but I wanted to answer their question since I felt like I knew the answer. Sorry again.--JUDE ^talk 02:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No need to apoligise at all. YEs, i think it is good to discuss issues. And, i don't think you started anything serious. Your answer was good and I was merely stating my opinion. Again, don't apologise. Merbabu 02:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Album articles

On most U2 album articles there is a link to a review by Robert Christgau. link. I strongly feel that this page is not a real review by a respected source - most of the time he just writes a couple of sentence on each album, sometimes nothing at all. Plus, I've never heard of him. I removed all the links only to have them replaced, so can we have some consensus on this? Willnz0 22:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the reviews are kinda of half-arsed - two even just show a picture of a bomb, and one is only 1/2 a sentence. Is that encyclopedic? It's the same link on each album article to the guy's own page. Each 'review' is just a short paragraph.

The only other thing to check is this guy's notability - although he has a longish wikipedia article, I'm sorry to say that notablity doesn't jump off the page. But, irrespective of his notability, it doesn't get around the fact that the actual 'reviews' in the link is to his own page and are short and flippant without adding much at all to the knowledge of these albums.

regards Merbabu 05:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that reviews such as these wouldn't be notable, if they were by anybody but Robert Christgau. As far as whether his reviews qualify as professional reviews as per WP:ALBUM#Professional reviews, I'll note that in my sample of Wikipedia album articles, there are 1284 reviews by All Music Guide, 521 by Rolling Stone, 445 by Pitchfork and 347 by Robert Christgau, followed by 203 less commonly used review sources. --PEJL 07:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Robert Christgau is also listed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums#Review sites. --PEJL 17:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Recollection from U2's formative years

For verification: Today I met a friend and we began talking about local bands. He's someone who is not given to making things up; he's a quiet Australian of Scottish descent who I've known about 10 years. He recalled being in Carlisle, Cumbria in 1979 and seeing a sign on a pub for a band playing that night: U2. He went to the gig and "there were about 20 people there including the band". He said that, among those present, were Kate Bush and Sid Vicious and he talked to both of them. (My friend said Sid gave Kate some tickets to a gig, and she passed them to him, "my Aussie friend".) This is where I'm beginning to get the jitters about the story, as Sid died in February 1979, and Kate was just then a new star. He said the pub was the "Seben Stars" (sic; yes, I queried him about the spelling!) Is there anyone from Carlisle who can verify the venue or the occasion? (The pub name does not come up on any search engine I've used.) Peter Ellis 06:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

hmmm - my understanding was that U2's first shows out of Ireland were in London only in Dec 1979. There were numerous British shows from 1980 onwards. My copy of the book 'U2 Live' doesn't have a listing of a show that could be the Cumbria show. hmmm - are Australians and Scotsman are known for tall stories! he he. By the way, there's a chance someone will tell us off for discussions not directly related to improving the encyclopedia, but that's OK. Merbabu 07:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

My point is to get data on early U2 shows that can be incorporated into the article. An example of an early U2 gig that has Bush and Viscious would show their profile and standing among fellow musicians. Peter Ellis 16:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

That they actually played that venue in 1979 needs to be verified. All relevant sources I have suggest they didn't. Furthermore, even if it was true, is this "profile and standing" (1) also verifiable or just synthesised original research and (2) is actually notable? There might be a point to mention about U2 being punk influenced (and hence maybe a possible Syd Viscious connection/influence) very early on but once again, it depends on WP:ATT. kind regards Merbabu 01:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

'Spider-Man: The Musical,' music by U2

How much you want to bet someone will add something about this to the page within the next 24 hours [22]? Wikipedia brown 17:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, thanks to 69.231.250.170 for proving me right!!! Wikipedia brown 04:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

he he - i had a chuckle. Should it be there? I suspect no.

No probably not, until they actually release something. Wikipedia brown 13:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey all I'm new to wiki, anyways I just referenced the spiderman musical, original fix was by 69.231.250.170 I think.76.19.30.95 06:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I just removed that section. Please do not readd it until some official word about it is released. At this point, it is little more than a rumor. ---Charles 14:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I just removed yet another reference to this supposed musical. This one claimed it had been officially confirmed, yet had no ref. to support that assertion. Is there any truth to this rumor? ---Charles 17:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about adding that without mentioning it here. It's on the front page of the Life section of the April 20th edition of the USA Today that Bono and The Edge will indeed be writing most/all of the score for a Spider-Man musical. So, i'll let one of you guys look it up and add it to the article after you find it. ---Dirtylemons666 18:18, 23 April 2007

New album

I don't like (sometimes detailed) running commentaries on developing events in an encyclopedia which I should feel should move a bit slower an record things that have actually happened and are significant. Thus I don't know that we need to list a so-far non-existant U2 album in the list of albums, and the article should only make a brief description of the work towards it. If we want up to date but transient information we should go to a newspaper or rock journal. In fact, i just removed it. Merbabu 04:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. MelicansMatkin 06:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with you. No need to document minor events like rumors of a new album or the spiderman musical thing I mentioned above (which makes me laugh ... spiderman musical? What are they thinking?). In fact, is there a way to add to the next album information a message to editors not to include rumors and such, unless a major event happens (pre-released album is stolen or leaked or Adam Clayton decides to quit U2 and become an astronaut, thereby causing next album to be cancelled) ??? Rumors are really a dime a dozen ... Wikipedia brown 13:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, no place for pointless rumours in an encyclopedia. Is Adam really leaving U2, though?  ;) Merbabu 14:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

LOL, these guys have been together for more than 25 years, so I'm guessing if really Adam wanted to take a trip into space (which I'm sure he could afford), he would have to take Bono, Edge, and Larry with him (although maybe not Larry, I get the feeling he's afraid of heights!) Wikipedia brown 17:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Joy Division/New Order should NOT be under Influences

Though it can be debated whether or not these bands have influenced U2, they are not major influences. The bands that are listed as major influences (The Who, The Clash, The Ramones, The Beatles) are frequently brought up by the band themselves as large inspirations and even tributed to in their sound. Of course, the band has other influences -- but this section should be for major influences only; otherwise, it'll make the article -- and that particular section, of course -- too long, as the article is pretty long as it is. If we were to put every influence of U2, or any band for that matter, it'd need it's own page to list them all. Therefore, the four that are listed are enough for major influences. 155.43.23.114 17:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The thing is the band do consider them major influences, particularly in their early years; they just don't talk about them much. Bono makes a number of appearances in the 1994 New Order documentary NewOrderStory which I've been citing; for some reason Bono's always talking straight into a camcorder he's holding over his head in his scenes. The most important items are when he says U2 "worshipped" Joy Division, and when Quincy Jones says (paraphrased) "Bono once told me that New Order is the band that's influenced them the most but they really don't tell anyone." Important additional items of note: the song "A Day Without We" from Boy was written about the suicide of Joy Division singer Ian Curtis, Bono vowed to Tony Wilson (owner of Factory Records, Joy Division and New Order's record label) to take Curtis' place as top frontman of his generation after his death, and U2 is rumored to be contributing a track to the soundtrack to Control, the upcoming film about Curtis. WesleyDodds 09:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I kind of agree with Wesley on this one...though I wasn't aware of their devotion to them, either, even after reading U2 By U2, twice...ah well. RattleandHum 16:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I haven't any opinion on the matter one way or the other. I, quite frankly, think that it is a minor point. If it is documented that the members of the band have stated they are a major influence, then it should be left. A concensus on the issue needs to be reached here, though, before any further changes are made to the article. ---Charles 23:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the original poster...they should not be included. Even if they are influences, they aren't NEARLY as influential to U2 as the ones already listed and that's what that section is for: the major influences. Any diehard U2 fan can tell you The Beatles, The Who, The Ramones and The Clash are their biggest inspirations: look at their catalog and so on, they're constantly brought up; Joy Division? Hardly. Yes, Joy Division had some influence over their earlier sound but that's pretty much it, and just because Joy Division "became" New Order doesn't mean they influenced them as well, that's pointless. I say we keep the influences to the original four and those four only. 155.43.22.126 16:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

WesleyDodds has made an excellent case for the inclusion of Joy Division & New Order with citations saying that the band does consider them major influences. You say "any diehard U2 fan can tell you..." blah blah blah. Well, that is not a citation, nor is it relevant. Wesley provided sources for the assertion, you provide nothing other than your opinion. Furthermore, I suspect that you are, in fact, the original poster, with whom you say you agree. Stop changing the article to fit your opinion. ---Charles 17:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Confusion between YouTube and U2?

user TheFuzzyFive had changed the lead to cover potential confusion between YouTube and U2, I am not sure this could occur and reverted it; thoughts? --Parhamr 03:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Dont worry I was just joking. Simply consider it an act of vandalism. Cheers, TheFuzzyFive 03:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at his talk page and you can see he makes a habit of this kind of "joking". ---Charles 03:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge U2's 16th album into this article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The result was no merger. -- Crashintome4196 05:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The article U2's 16th album should be merged into this article because the album does not yet have enough information or even a title to have its own article at this point. –Crashintome4196 03:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I would have to say no to that because another page for the 16th album would have to be created sooner or later. I've also seen a lot of the fandom anticipate that a new album will be released by this time next year (although I admit that, with U2 of all bands, prediction is impossible). MelicansMatkin 04:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a news service of 'fandom' gossip/rumour site. An encyclopedia should list things that are notable, not things that haven't happened. It doesn't have to be up to the date by the second like news must, and articles certainly shouldn't be based on speculation and possibilities. Chop it - and it shouldn't be listed here in the discography. Merbabu 09:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Although I agree that there should not be an article on U2's yet unreleased album, I'm against merging it to this one - it would do more harm than good. U2 is currently a FA candidate, and adding four paragraphs with the latest news to it defnitely wouldn't help. The information already on this article (with six linked references) is more than enough. --Kristbg 19:51, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, certainly shouldn't be merged into U2. It's all speculation from fan sites. In fact, their is already too much of that in U2. Merbabu 01:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

My recent edits to the 2004 - 2007 section...

I spent some time culling info in this section. The section was long but had very little info that was notable enough for the main page on U2 a band with 30 year history. SOrry, but it was a tedious read. It was full of statistics, dates, and overly detailed listings awards. It's a lot shorter now - some info is already in sub-articles and other overly detailed, even tedious, info I pushed down into footnotes, and other info i just remove redundancies in language, so no actual info is gone. This is the diff [23] but it is best viewed in the article itself - as most info is now in footnotes. Salient points..

• We don't need to list each of the five categories and five songs that won Grammy's - i've put in a link to the 2006 U2 awards page. (or, perhaps we could list these in the footnotes of the U2 article)
• We don't need to make a running list of every quote from the band on the new album - although I shifted them into the footnotes.
• As such, the two sentences that cover the only substantial info on the album do not need their own section.
• And the tag highlighting "speculative info likely to change" is ugly, and is unnecessary as such info should not be here - and has been removed.
• we don't need to list all the different versions of U218 singles here. That's what the linked U218 Singles article is for. That info is just superfluous detail on this 'main' page.

However...

The section does need a bit more on the album and tour's themes, motivations, etc. The Joshua Tree and Unforgettable Fire sections do this well in my opinion, whilst the HTDAAB section is very shallow in contrast. It is just discusses of iPod/Apple and chart positions (which i condensed last week). These are important of course, but in detail and on their own - "snore!". At most three well-referenced sentences is what we need to add; I will research later, but off the top of my head:

• The band wanted a sound that was harder hitting than ATYCLB
• It's quite retrospective in themes
• We'll find something - lol.

Any thoughts? --Merbabu 03:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Very nice edits! I agree completely that the speculative "Next album" section was nothing but rumors and deliberately vague quotes from the band. As for the the HTDAAB :section, here are three nice reviews that we can pull material from for the album at the least (all of them call this album a rock-and-roll album, aka "hard-hitting"):

Slant Magazine Review

Short BBC review

Nice RS review

And a Vertigo show review for good measure:

Washington Post Review

I also agree that three sentences should be appropriate Merbabu. I'm looking forward to adding some words over the next day or two. Wikipedia brown 23:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Article protection?

In regard to the question of whether Joy Division/New Order should be considered a "major influence" on U2, it looks as if this anonymous user is the only one who objects. I strongly suspect that the IPs [[24]], [[25]], and[[26]] are actually the same person, who continues to delete content from the article not in keeping with his POV. As this is the case, can the article be protected to put an end to his vandalism? ---Charles 18:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)