Talk:World of Warcraft

Talk

This section is for all those who have requested this translation, are translating or proofreading this article, or just want to give some advice about the translation in progress. Do not forget to watch this page].

In particular, you can use {{Doubt | original sentence }} or {{Doubt | original sentence | possible translation}} to highlight the problems you encounter during the translation process.

There's no need for this translation. The Polish version is almost entirely unsourced and seems to be of far lower quality than our version. --- RockMFR 21:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Instructions

For the historical instructions see Template:Translation/Instructions

There seems to be no consitent translative alphabet for Common to Orcish. However I have identified that the translating of the languages functions by specific combinations, not individual characters. I have concluded the following facts;

- Numbers such as 1 2 3 4 5 (etc.) are capitalized letters.

- Numbers and letters do not connect consistently with the same letter in common or orcish.

Do not edit after here

</noinclude>

Article Needs a Cleanup Badly

This article is a mess. I've been playing this game since release, but I still get a headache trying to navigate through this article. Needs to be cleaned up and re-organized. I'm somewhat unfamiliar with Wiki code, so I couldn't figure out how to flag this article for clean up. Every time I tried, it was prompting me to enter information about filing a dispute... --CBrewster 19:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

WoW a continuation of Warcraft?

I think it's slightly incorrect to say that World of Warcraft is a continuation of the Warcraft series, as the opening paragraph suggests. That could be misleading so people think the other warcraft games are MMOs as well. How should this be changed? "The fourth game set in the Warcraft universe"? --Kraigory 04:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be acceptable. --Moblinmaniac 13:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, I feel that the way stated above is correct, however it is just a different type of game. It does continue the Warcraft series, but as an MMORPG instead of an RTS. Penman 1701 23:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Origin of "raid" term?

Under gameplay, it reads "...raids" (a term originating from EverQuest gameplay)." There is no source of this claim, and a preliminary google search of the term "dungeon raid" turns up a video game from 1983 that's based on D&D which leads me to believe that the term "raid" actually shares its roots with Everquest and World of Warcraft in the classic paper and pencil Dungeons and Dragons games. Anyone have any insight on this piece of trivia? -Jaardon 09:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Just remove the comment in parentheses, in my opinion. It's unnecessary. If we really want to provide an explanation, then let's create a page called "Raid Dungeon" explaining what it is, and link to it. --CBrewster 17:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

World of Warcaft Expansion: The Burning Crusade

I am currently not sure on how to deal with the original World of Warcraft and its expansion The Burning Crusade. This article contains information about both versions, whereas the Burning Crusade article is lacking information and is not updated consistently. If I were not playing this game, I would be confused, as in some sections lvl60 is designated as Endgame and the next sentence discusses lvl70 content.

Should we keep this article restricted on the originally released World of Warcraft and discuss lvl 60-70 in the Burning Crusade article, or should we try to reword certain statements to cover both versions. The latter may result in mess if not written carefully. --tomst | talk 19:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

You raise a good point and I can see both sides. However, I think I'm in favour of your latter decision - reword it so the L60 doesn't seem like Endgame. I think this is important as one of the great functions of Wikipedia is the ability to alter information, should the need arise. The game information changes, therefore, the article should reflect that. :) Summoner Marc 02:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Deviation from the MMORPG archetype section removal

I was bold. I removed the section "Deviation from the MMORPG archetype" entirely. Only the first paragraph contained interesting information, which nonetheless read like original research and was not sourced at all. The following paragraphs did not discuss differences to other MMORPGs but instead read like subjective statements about the history of PVP in WoW. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tomst (talk • contribs) 19:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

Thank you! I think the original purpose of the section is good (comparing WoW to traditional MMO conventions), but the section, as written, was basically a long-winded discussion of the Honor system without any citations. Luis₁₉₇₂ (Talk • My Contribs) 20:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

You deserve a great big HUG! That section wasn't encyclopedic at all. Quezacolt 09:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

ok in the original game manual it states that the current high lvl in 60. it also states that the high lvl will change with the game so as of current the high lvl is 70. thus in a few years the high lvl may be 80. in other words the high lvl evolves as the game evolves which is why its important to download all patches and game downloads from blizzard that can be found at www.worldofwarcraft.com/media

I propose to add Allakhazam.com to the links section

Allakhazam.com is a well-known and valuable reference website to most WoW fans. In fact, I would hazard a guess that it's the 2nd most important WoW fansite aside from Thottbot. I think that it would enhance the article if the link is provided. Luis₁₉₇₂ (Talk • My Contribs) 05:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Go for it, wonder why it isn't there in the first place... Quezacolt 09:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. Luis₁₉₇₂ (Talk • My Contribs) 21:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I'm trying to figure out why wowhead isn't there. JavaTenor 22:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The external links section is getting a bit long. How about replacing some of them with directory entries e.g. by linking to Dmoz categories. There are some extensive lists for reviews as well as some uncategorized links. Game Databases also has some entries. I do not want to remove all the links, but some could be covered by a directory link. --tomst | talk 10:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

DO NOT ADD AN RMT OWNED WEBSITE TO THE LINK LIST

uh, I'd go so far as to say that either Thottbot or Allakazam is enough. Both seems a bit excessive. If you really want to get down to it, you might as well replace them both with Wowhead. The list is starting to get long, and a trim might be in order. Fr0 03:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Adding a screenshot to Modifications section...

Image:WoW_User_Interface.jpg Hi! I'm thinking of adding a screenshot of my UI(which is extremely modded up) into the Modifications section. See the pic to the right. Is the screenshot ok? I plan on adding it to the article tomorrow. Quezacolt 09:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an ok example of a modified UI, but I wouldn't call it the best example of an 'extremely modded up' ui. I uploaded a screen of what the newest modded UIs look like. Tell me what you think. --Jackbox55 20:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Modified_WoW_User_Interface.jpg Mind telling me what mod makes your party frames look like that? :) Please? Quezacolt 04:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC) Perl and CTmod/CTViewpoint with some others. Fr0 11:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Retail software

Please link "retail software" to retail software, thanks. --71.169.143.192 23:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Done! Quezacolt 01:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

why only horde screenshots on this article?

Because Alliance can not find the Print Screen key? d: All seriousness though, because no one with an Alliance character took and submitted a screenshot. From the tone I guess you play Ally, so solve the problem yourself and submit a screenshot. --Ihmhi 03:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I was gonna suggest adding in here the fact that you can purchase and download the game through their website also.

PvP Neutrality

I feel this section is neutral enough. Can the tag be removed now? 72.156.181.178 18:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I reworded some text to make it seem less personal. I think it looks better and is more encyclopedic. Derfy 20:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Questionable sales figures/subscriber numbers?

According to The Burning Crusade article, nearly 1.6 million copies of TBC have been sold in Europe, yet the main WoW article claims that there are only 1.5 million European subscribers.

Unless significant numbers of Europeans are in the habit of buying expansion packs for games they don't own/can't play, it looks like one or other of the figures is out of whack. 217.34.39.123 15:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, some people may have put the game down since they bought the expansion. That's probably all there is to it. Torte... of Doom! 16:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

-- or some people just bought both when tbc came out in the 'buy both' deals in amazon, and other places, the other figure is just not up to date. Guest0495 08:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

--- Let me ask you this: Are all those players who bought the game European? A Chineese or American could've just visited Europe and bought the game there.

Probably not, because you can only bought EU bought expansion on EU accounts. (same goes for Chinese and American). Torte... of Doom! 18:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I know several people who play on the European Servers, but live in America, and Several who Live in Australia. This is because they want to play with friends who live in Europe. Also, there is an option in the support form for WoW, if you "accidentally" ordered a European copy of Burning Crusades, you can have it switched for the correct Game Key.

Kevin 10:47 PM 12 June 2007

Self-contradiction

One of the opening paragraphs claims 3.5 million players in China, yet the "Controversy and Criticism" section says it's 20 million! I doubt this is due simply to outdated content. Most likely, the latter is the number of accounts, since as I understand, players can create multiple accounts. If so, can this be fixed, I think it's a pretty conspicuous mistake. --...Wikiwøw 21:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The 20 million reference in Controversy and criticism isn't discussing China having 20 million WoW subscribers, but 20 million gamers in general, and steps the Chinese government is taking to curb game addiction. FeralDruid 23:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see, I thought it meant World of Warcraft gamers. Well then, I suppose it's fine. --...Wikiwøw 22:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

In the "In popular culture" section, there should be an addition -On The Colbert Report, Stephen Colbert made a reference to World of Warcraft and jokingly created his own game "World of Colbertcraft" Replacing his head for the dwarf hunter's head and the night elf with a bear.

i would raise the question how many ppl bought TBC to resell on sites like ebay.

Proposal

Do you think a section about "celebrity players" would be interesting? (Comment added 19:00, 29 March 2007 by User:83.190.91.200 (unsigned)).

It might be cool. I dont see a problem.Dark reaper6789 19:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC) but it may not be encyclapedic though, now that i think about it.Dark reaper6789 19:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Question: How would you substantiate the presence of celebrity players in the game, and what defines a celebrity player? For two years there have been rumors of Dave Chappelle, Elijah Wood and a number of other "celebrities" playing, but without evidence it is only speculation. FeralDruid 19:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

you do have a point but I'm sure theres something out there that talks about it. I might look into it. it would be awsome if Jim Carey played WoW though :) he would be funny in a raid.Dark reaper6789 19:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, would be interesting but could never verify unless it was public.. and let's face it, not many celebs would admit to playing would they? ;) Fr0 11:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea, although if the section ever does come into existence, there might be a backlash from the celebrites themselves if they begin receiving a torrent of in-game whispers and letters. As far as celebrities admitting that they play, I don't think that that would be much of an issue. Both Vin Diesel and Stephen Colbert have admitted to being avid D&D players which, generally speaking, carries a larger social stigma. Moblinmaniac 17:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I feel like this should be put in a "Celebrity Gamers" section as opposed to a section in the WoW article itself. Dramma!

number of simultaneous players?

do we have statistics on how the number of players online at any given times fluctuates between? i think this would be interesting, and useful for measuring it's size. 131.111.8.103 18:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Not as far as I'm aware, and I don't think Blizzard want to release that information. Sazielt c 10:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hard to say but you can check the highest points at http://www.warcraftrealms.com/censusfaq.php Fr0 11:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Soundtrack

I really think the information is irrelevant. I think it should be changed into a Collector's Edition sections instead, mentioning the soundtrack and the other goodies that came with it. Sazielt c 11:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Film section

I've added a Film section based on news about the project. Due to the lack of actual production, the film article was redirected here. (Actually, I redirected it to Warcraft for a while, which goes to show how familiar I am with this.) Anyway, it's usually a rule of thumb to establish film articles when there's a director, a cast, and a production start date. This is because production of some projects is not always guaranteed -- look at what happened with the film adaptation of Halo. Hope the new addition is sufficient! —Erik (talk • contrib • review) - 17:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Bad paragraph

This entire paragraph:

With the recent release of the expansion, Blizzard has attempted to make endgame content more accessible to casual players by reducing the amount of required preparation to do these. The original (level 60) endgame dungeons involved gathering rather large amounts of supplies before the dungeon attempt, such as doing long "attunement" quests, which is a requirement for almost all raiding guilds in the game. The attunement quest enables the player to easily enter a specific raid dungeon, and for some dungeons, players cannot enter without completing this quest. Blizzard claims to have made these quests shorter in the expansion, but since not enough people have reached endgame level, this is unproven.

is simply wrong and I suggest removing/rewriting it. If anything, attunement for endgame dungeons in Burning Crusade is far more difficult and complicated than it ever was pre-BC.

For reference we could include a copy of an attunement chart, such as this one: http://worldofraids.free.fr/bc/BCRaids.png —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.181.195.241 (talk) 06:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

I was the one who wrote just about the entire paragraph - I based it off CM posts from some time ago, so it's most likely outdated. I approve it's removal. Quezacolt 12:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

System Requirements

The system requirements for RAM are inaccurate. The game is not competitively playable with less than 1GB of RAM. 130.126.246.122 05:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

While I too would prefer not to play with less than 1GB of RAM, the official system requirements ([1]) are for "512 MB or more of RAM". To state otherwise would constitute Original research. --Stormie 06:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The article quotes the minimum system requirements as per Blizzards FAQ. You are talking about a possible recommended system configuration. I would stick with the system recommendation by Blizzard. tomst | talk 06:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not true. I used to play with barely scratching 512Mb of RAM and I did very well on the game. Granted now that I've upgraded it's untouchable in comparison, but it's still very playable. Summoner Marc 06:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Seconding the not true. Assuming you're not trying to run Vista on 1GB (you'd have to be crazy), 1GB of system RAM should be plenty. Your video card's RAM, however, is much more crucial. If you have a crappy video card, no amount of beefing the rest of your system is going to make the game "competitively playable". 139.139.67.70 17:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Cities

I have made a small edit to the main article. I suspect there will be mixed reactions to it so here is my justification. The article listed 4 horde cities, 4 alliance cities and 7 neutral cities. This is inaccurate. There is in fact only one neutral city, Shattrath.

Lets look at what a city is…

1) It is denoted on the world of Warcraft Map with a castle icon.

2) It is accessible via a mage portal.

All 8 of the alliance and horde cities match this description as well as Shattrath. The locations listed as neutral cities…

- Booty Bay in Stranglethorn Vale

- Ratchet in The Barrens

- Gadgetzan in Tanaris

- Everlook in Winterspring

- Cenarion Hold in Silithus

- Light's Hope Chapel in the Eastern Plaguelands

…are just quest hubs and not cities. If these locations are to be taken as cities then…

- Cenarion Refuge in Zangarmarsh

- Sporegarr in Zangarmarsh

- Aeris in Nagrand

- Evergrove in BladesEdge

- Area 52 in Netherstorm

- Stormspire in Netherstorm

…should be added to the list. As the section in question is only talking about cities I have removed the locations mentioned that are not cities. --Paddyffrench 14:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The WoW official site only lists the 3 original major cities from each faction as cities. Major cities have banks and auction houses as well. I would define the cities in the game as a major hub that usually has an auction house or bank. From there I would differentiate from the major cities; They are cities that have mage portals and are also the capital or home city of a race.

Using these definitions Everlook, Booty Bay, Ratchet, and Gadgetzan are the neutral cities and Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus, Ogrimmar, Undercity, and Thunder Bluff are the major cities in the original WoW. I agree that Cenarion hold and Light's Hope aren't cities at all, and are in fact small faction-based quest hubs. In the expansion, Shattrath and Area 52 would be neutral cities while Exodar and Silvermoon City are major cities, and should probably be noted in that article rather than this one. Thoughts? Altair 22:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Best solution: remove the list of cities from the article. It's game guide material, not encyclopedia article material. --Stormie 06:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

A list of cities in the game is enclopedic. When you refer to "game guide material", I presume you're referring to WP:NOT which mentions game guides under "instruction manuals", i.e. how-tos. This is not a how to, and therefore, not that kind of game guide material. McKay 15:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

A list of items isn't a howto either, but that doesn't mean it belongs in the article. Not even the Cities article on WoWWiki is as large as that section. Additionally, the Unexplored regions section shouldn't exist at all- it's not relevant here. Sazielt c 18:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure, A list of countries where the game is available for sale also isn't a howto, and that doesn't mean that it doesn't belong to the article, it also doesn't mean it should be included. It just means that "Game Guide" is not a valid reason for exclusion. You're going to have to come up with a better reason why we shouldn't list the cities. And comparing to Wowwiki isn't part of wikipedia policy either. Maybe it's a bit wordy, but the information (both cities and unavailable regions) is encyclopedic. some of it might not be WP:Verifiable, but it's encyclopedic content. Maybe the reason WoWWiki's content isn't as large is because they aren't an encyclopedia. McKay 22:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I would look less at the amenities provided, and more at whether or not the city gets its own zone map - Shattrath lacks an Auction House, and is not a home city for anyone, but has its own zone map when you are in the city. All of the other criteria (bank, mage portals) are met. The other big difference for Shattrath is that it is not positioned relative to a starting area and town (Northshire->Goldshire->Stormwind, Red Cloud->Bloodhoof->Thunder Bluff, Coldridge->Kharanos->Ironforge, and so on). Another point in favor of Shattrath (and excluding the Goblin towns) is that the back of the BC box mentions "new neutral city". UltraNurd 20:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

From a gameplay point of view it is clear that only Shattrath and the 4 racial cities on each side are cities.. 9 cities. Best criteria being the fact that you are in the ciry-wide trade channel only in these locations, and the mage teleport spells only work to these locations. There's banks in them, there's Battlemasters and Arena Masters in them.

Shattrath has the highest population of any locale in WoW right now, so not calling it a city just because it dosen't have an AH is pretty far-fetched (there is no AH in Outlands because devs didn't want Azeroth to be deserted).

The others are only towns (quest hubs, whatever), not frequented by end-level players, and while the neutral AH that connects goblin towns is interesting it's not used a lot.--Helixdq 14:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

They are both hubs and citys (some of) however they're not major cities, so perhaps excluding them is the best option. Of the above listed cities Area 52 is the closest to a city. Better still to not include any of them. Shattrath City, and all the major faction cities. Fr0 22:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

A wierd question

is it true that if you say chuck norries on WoW that you get banned temporialy ? I just heard that and wondered if it was true

• Who knows? Check out the WoW forums, there's probably an answer on there :) Summoner Marc 02:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok thanks I will do that

I can say for a fact, that they will give you warnings and eventually ban you if you post too many "chuck norries". The hierarchy goes 3 warnings, 3 3 hour bans, 2 3 day bans, and then an account suspension apparently permanantly.

No you 'nubs' if you have spent more than 5 minutes in barrens chat you will know that not only is the mention of Chuck Norris not grounds for suspension on WOW but is actually very common. I have even said Chuck Norris and nothing...

Actualy as long as its in General, speeking of Chuck Norris will not get you ban..If so everyone in Barrens would be banned.

Billing

I think it should be noted that while the game from the store does include 30 days free play, you cannot create an account without a credit card or buying a game card. When you try to create a character, it tells you to either enter a credit card number, or a game card number. It never mentions that on the box. There is a way around that, however. I called their support desk, and the guy told me to go to warcraft.com, and get the trial version for 10 days, and then authenticate it from the code that comes with the box. Even though that resolved it for me, I still think it's misleading. When you buy the game that says 30 days free included, you should be able to play and not purchase any other products or enter credit card numbers.

Sacrublood. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.87.243.242 (talk) 14:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

What's misleading about it? You get to play free for 30 days. Fr0 03:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Changes..

I just made a lot of changes to this article (i've been bold :P), diff

• Changed the player limit of raids from 40 to 25 (even though old raids are still 40man, all burning crusade instances are either 5, 10 or 25)
• System requirements don't change frequently but often (they changed only once as far as i know)
• Removed the following paragraph (unsourced and out of date):
  • With the recent release of the expansion, Blizzard has attempted to make endgame content more accessible to casual players by reducing the amount of required preparation to do these. The original (level 60) endgame dungeons involved gathering rather large amounts of supplies before the dungeon attempt, such as doing long "attunement" quests, which is a requirement for almost all raiding guilds in the game. The attunement quest enables the player to easily enter a specific raid dungeon, and for some dungeons, players cannot enter without completing this quest. Blizzard claims to have made these quests shorter in the expansion, but since not enough people have reached endgame level, this is unproven.
• Changed all the "1 month subscription" to "30 days subscription"
• The definition of "Contested Territory" was incorrect.
• Removed all the explanation of the color of the zone names (red = hostile, green = friendly, etc). IMO it's not pertinent to this article.
• Added the citation needed tag to "RP rules are very rarely enforced by GMs". This is most certainly not true and imo should be removed.
• Replaced:
  • Including combinations only available with The Burning Crusade, there are currently 26 possible combinations of race and class for each faction, for a total of 52 combinations across both factions. Without the expansion, the character and class combinations are limited to 20 and 20 respectively.
• with:
  • for example Night Elves can only be Druids, Hunters, Priests, Rogues or Warriors.
• Removed the Nether Drake mount paragraph from the Arena section since the rewards change every arena season (ie, the next arena season will have a different reward)
• Many players did not receive well the changes that were made to the honor system as of version 2.0 ---> Added citation needed tag
• The Burning Crusade expansion released on January 16 2007 added one new race to each faction (the Blood Elves and the Draenei). In a controversial decision by Blizzard each of these new races are able to play as the previously faction-specific class of the opposite faction. ---> Added citation needed tag
• Removed the Unexplored regions section, not pertinent to the article.

Azshadarae ^Talk 01:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I changed the player limit for raids back to 40. As you have stated, there are still 40 man raids in the game. Maybe we could add a note saying that new raid instances will be capped at 25 players. tomst | talk 06:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Addon picture

The picture with the heavily modified interface is in fact not that heaviey modified... i got 50-100% worse...

Death?

What happens when a character loses all of his/her HP? How does one keep playing after they die? - SigmaEpsilon → ΣΕ 18:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

See http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/death.html --Stormie 01:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Questionable wording in the initial description

In reference to the following passage from the first paragraph of the page: "World of Warcraft is a subscription-based MMORPG that lacks an offline mode."

This wording seems to be an overstatement. An online game can't really lack an offline mode. It would be more appropriate to say something like "...is a subscription-based MMORPG that is played exclusively online." This game is widely accepted as one of the best MMORPG's evermade, if not the epitome of the genre. So, to say the game is "missing" something is too strong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mrdeath5493 (talk • contribs) 21:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

      I second that opinion. --Moblinmaniac 13:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Putting back my addition to controversy and criticism

It isnt an opinion, I am stating facts as to how the GM service operates and the fractions they warn, suspend, and ban for. I am sorry if I offended any fanboy's point of view but the entire addition is factual and from a NPOV. Species2112 01:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Its original research. Get a reliable source indicating that this happens. Otherwise its WP:OR and cant be in the article. Dman727 02:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I could cite the same source as the transgendered/gay issue right above it has and it would be sufficient. and no its not original research or unverified claims if it happened before. Species2112 02:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

You're referring to [2]? Can't see anything in there about many players finding the verbal harassment policies oppressive and intrusive. And it's certainly not a source for GM actions rarely being repealed, since it discusses a sole incident which ended in Blizzard apologizing to the player in question. --Stormie 04:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone is watching this page 24/7 and constantly deleting any negative information put in whatsoever if they can

When you want to factor in the neutral point of view, this page it definitely goes in blizzards favor. Keep in mind when you read this page that real controversial issues and concerns were deleted even though you could go into orgrimmar or stormwind channels and ask the people and theyd all tell you the same thing pretty much... Sad that either blizzard is paying people or fanboys care so much about this page that they constantly feel the need to edit out bad stuff that they dont like. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Species2112 (talk • contribs) 02:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Imagine that. A site used 24 hours a day by people all around the world. Of course its watched 24 hours a day! lol. Seriously though. Read up on the WP:OR. If its well sourced and noteable, you can add it to any article. Dman727 02:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Had it been something positive to say about WOW instead of something negative, it would still be up regardless of OR. I think selective editing would be a better way to phrase it instead of someone is watching this page 24/7 (though they are). Species2112 02:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely refute the suggestion that original research and personal opinions would be allowed to stand in the article just because they were positive towards Blizzard and/or the game. If there are any sections that you consider problematic, please point them out, or Be Bold and remove them. btw, "even though you could go into orgrimmar or stormwind channels and ask the people and theyd all tell you the same thing pretty much..." - that's probably the best example anyone could come up with of original research which is not appropriate for a Wikipedia article! --Stormie 03:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone just deleted my Contributions without even commenting it here. There should be some more Information about Thirdparty-Programs. --Hendricius 13:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hendricius (talk • contribs) 13:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

I just revered your external link just now - read the policies on external links before adding them, simply being related to the topic is not a reason to link to them. - Trysha ^(talk) 16:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you should read them:" - Sites that violate the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations should not be linked. Linking to websites that display copyrighted works is acceptable as long as the website has licensed the work. Knowingly directing others to a site that violates copyright may be considered contributory infringement. If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors. This is particularly relevant when linking to sites such as YouTube, where due care should be taken to avoid linking to material that violates its creator's copyright.

- Sites that match the spam blacklist without being whitelisted. Pages that contain such links cannot be saved."

Links to cheating Websites must be included. No Website I added violates the terms and they provide usefull Information. We can not just exclude them because Blizzard does not like them. They are at least 20 percent of every game's content.--Hendricius 06:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Which criterion in Wikipedia:External links#What to link leads you to feel that that forum is a suitable and useful external link for this article? --Stormie 07:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Hacks

I edited the Article again. Added some Information about Hacks. But I am not quite sure why the formatting looks so wiered. Why should D3scene.com Included? Because it is not a real discussion Board. It provides sources, downloads and Information about Hacks. World of Warcraft Forum. It provides Information about those Hacks.--Hendricius 15:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I have rv your edits regarding hacks due to copyright issues as the content you added was copy pasted from www.hackwiki.net/World_of_Warcraft. Having said that, I think its good information but it needs to be written and sourced, rather than copied from another site. Dman727 15:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I have written it over there and I want to redistribute it here. GNU allows that, doesn't it? --Hendricius 15:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I really see no need for this section in the article. If any of this information belongs in the article (ie if it can be properly sourced, and is deemed to be relevant) it should be in the Modifications section. A slightly larger coverage of "hacks" in that section probably wouldn't hurt, but the amount of detail in the current version seems too much to me. I won't revert anything now, instead wait to see what others feel. Tengfred 07:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Well. World of Warcraft is a commonly Hacked Game. About 10% of all Users Cheat. For others it is interesting. But ofcourse, you can put that hacking into a subsection of Modifications.--Hendricius 17:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

10% eh? I'm REALLY curious how you came up with that statistic. I think that Tengfred has a good point - this information should proably fall into the modifications section. Dman727 21:22, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone should maybe enter a section about duping? I know in the WoW and Diablo II games duping is a pretty talked about thing. Like mention how sites such as http://www.bootybaywow.com/ and the no longer working http://www.wow-dupe.com/ sell dupe methods and how people sell duped gold to make a real life income. Thanks.

Site appears to be a scam. There is no known method of duping items in WOW at this moment (there was some in the past, but they have been patched). 01:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

There are no public Dupe Methods. I will readd Hackwiki hence one person removed it again without an appropriate reason. --Hendricius 18:23, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

External Links

I removed the link to Hackwiki as it does not provide any additional information relevant to World of Warcraft and/or third party extensions. The history of the wiki shows first edits on the 4th of May, most additional topics there are verbatim copies of other Wikipedia articles. tomst | talk 11:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I just checked the Website. The only Article, copied from Wikipedia I have found, was the Article about Cheat Engine. Readded the Link, just look at that WoW-Page, it provides tons of more Information.--Mr.Wong2000 21:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Without attribution, I don't think that they can copy Wikipedia articles. Greeves ^{(talk • contribs • reviews)} 22:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed the link again. Hackwiki contains verbatim copies of Tsearch ([3]), Cheat Engine ([4]) and WoW Glider ([5]) without fulfilling license requirements (see WP:COPY), we should not link to such sites. Furthermore I was under the impression, that we want to discuss external links before they are added to the list (as mentioned in the inline comments of the External Links section). Regarding content, the site lists some generic tools like Cheat Engine and Tsearch; they are already covered by Wikipedia and they are not of importance to World of Warcraft itself. tomst | talk 06:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

They are on GNU-Free-license I just checked. Look at all the articles about World of Warcraft, modelchanging, hacking and other usefull Information. I readded the link. --Mr.Wong2000 09:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Between licensing issues (which remain unadressed) and the promotional nature of the link (the link appears to serve mainly as a promotion for Hackwiki, rather than a tool to improve this Wikipedia article), I don't see how we can keep it. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Cheating on World of Warcraft is a huge part of the game. There are always people, interested in Cheating/hacking. When they see those Videos with uber-cheaters. I just checked Hackwiki and it provides usefull Information about Cheating e.g what is possible, the dangers, blizzards antidetection. --Hendricius 01:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no indication or source that cheating is a huge part of WOW. Dman727 01:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

There have been banned more than 200 000 CD Keys including Accounts. That is almost 5-10% of all WoW Players. Readded. --Hendricius 11:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Surely you have got reliable sources for that. As for the continuous adding and re-adding, apparently the link is disputed, two users feel it should belong, others don't. I'd say keep the link removed and gain consensus whether it should be included or not before adding it again. --Fogeltje 11:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Since you appear to be the administrator of HackWiki, Hendricius, I'm not convinced that you are adding this link for any reason other than self-promotion. --Stormie 07:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

In fact, that would be a violation of WP:EL which states you shouldn't add links to sites you are affliated with, but should post it on the talkpage to let neutral people decide on it.--Fogeltje 10:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Mounts - excessive detail

This edit looks to me to be about a hundred times more detail than is appropriate for an encyclopedia article. What reason is there for this minutiae to be here rather than on, say, wowwiki? --Stormie 03:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I've created a separate article to deal with the "excessive detail". See Mounts (World of Warcraft). Pejorative.majeure 05:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Want to add to Proffesions

I wanted to add some info under the Proffesion area, but couldn't. I just created a user, before I just edited anonymously. If anyone else wanted to, it was going to be a few minor things, such as the specialisations of other engineering (the others have theirs listed) and a number link to where you can find out more. DarkReviver 10:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I added information about engineering. Is that what you were looking for?

Theres also incorrect information under professions...

it is 2 Standard professions a player can learn, <Such as tailoring and enchanting> but a player can ALSO learn ALL THREE secondary professions, which are First Aid, Cooking and Fishing, for a total of 5 professions per player

Woman "Getting Mounted"

Shouldnt this:[6] be added to the article, in the Controversy section? (if its true, of course, but its quite known on the web anyway).

Certainly not without a reliable source. --Stormie 01:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Bahahaha! I've never seen this til today, and I'm normally up on this shit. Pfft, I'm teh king farmer and eh, 5,000 gold... not 5,000 dollars. I'd do it. ;) j/k Anywho, not really worth mentioning without a direct source. Fr0 03:08, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

But even if its all wrong, it is a known controversy. I can give reference of this being well-known, but i dont play WoW so i cannot confirm if its true. Anyway, some places where its referenced: [7], [8], [9] --82.131.84.240 14:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

This can be included if we can find a Reliable Source reporting on it. The links so far in this section are just forum posts, and are not reliable. So if someone like Joystiq reported on it, we'd be in. Until then, we can't include it. McKay 15:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

WOW inconsistent with previous games in the series and all round unrealistic in terms of politics

Shouldn't there be a short section detailing how WOW does not follow the storyline/canon of the previous games and being all around unrealistic, such as by the following:

• Separating the races into two factions representing good (Alliance) and evil (Horde).
• Limiting to only two factions, thus limiting the number of racial choices and being all-around unrealistic. Third party factions would theoretically include: Burning Legion (demon and worshiper races), Undead Scourge (undead and cultist races), and Independents (all other races).
• Removing classes with connection to undead (Death Knight & Necromancer), because Scourge faction does not exist.
• Making it impossible for you to change your faction or even communicate with the enemy faction, which is unrealistic.
• Not being player driven except in ultra-rare circumstances (like holding world event items for ransom); what players do has absolutely NO effect on the game world.
• The list goes on. --Zenoseiya 15:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like Original Research to me. --Stormie 00:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

That, and a lot of if looks like standard complaints when a MMO is based on previous worlds.--Donovan Ravenhull 09:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Um a Couple of things here:

• Alliance and Horde are not good and evil factions. they are merely two different factions fighting the same enemy as well as each other
• Like the burning legion isnt godly enough, we dont need level 70 demons roaming around. look at what happened when kazzam got into stormwind, they had to roll back the server. imagine a bunch of raiding idiots raiding whole towns.
• The undead race is the forsaken, and is therefore a limited race, with the same reason to it as my last point.
• No matter what level your gnome is, the horde doesnt want you.
• The only explanation i want is why they changed the draenei from the brown things in frozen throne to blue in burning crusade... but i like the new ones better

203.29.106.59 23:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Horde WAS evil in the two first games! But since III it is a force of GOOD alongside the Alliance (and it don't changed in WoW), oposed to the true evil - the Scourge and the Legion. The Alliance/Horde conflict is much more Order x Chaos. Of course, there is evildoers in BOTH sides, but each faction as a whole have good to neutral objectives and leadership. And don't talk as the separation of races in factions was something that started in WoW.
• Only the PLAYERS are limited to the factions and races. There are NPCs beyond these limits. It is not unrealistic, it's only restrictive to the player's. I don't know ANY computer game where you can play as anything that exist in that particular game world.
• The Scourge faction do exist in the game. It's only unplayable. These classes you cite were planned for a time, and dropped for gameplay reasons, not because you can't be a Scourge character - you can be a warlock, even with the Legion faction being ubplayable.
• Oh yeah, it is unrealistic, I agree. And the communication part is the only points you cite that is inconsistent with the previous games - you can see even inferior units talking with the enemie in various scenes. But give me one example, I want just one single case, of a single character (not a group or organization) that abandoned the Alliance and become part of the Horde, of the inverse. Just one.
• What are you talking about? It's a difficult any massive multiplayer game have to deal. You can't alter the world from the game's perspective, but for the canon, that was "a group of adventurers" who killed Onyxia!

200.255.9.38 18:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

World of WarCraft IS the largest MMO

According to the official figures, Lineage II has over twice the playerbase that WOW does, making IT the largest MMO ever. I'm curious why it isn't just as much a worldwide phenomenon as WOW? --Zenoseiya 15:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I am misreading the numbers, but according to NCsoft, Lineage II has a subscriber base (active) of approximately 1mio worldwide (100k in Europe and the US) Q4 2006 Breakdown (summary). tomst | talk 08:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The OP is correct -- WoW is not the largest MMO. Lineage II has 14 million subscribers worldwide. FeralDruid 08:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I note that our introductory section describes WoW as "the world's leading subscription-based MMORPG" (emphasis mine) - am I correct in my vague memory that Lineage II does not operate on an "$x per month"-style subscription model in Korea? Just something I recall from a past discussion on a forum somewhere. --Stormie 23:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

"Largest" is kinda a weird word, it's rather vague. In any case, we should avoid peacock words like this. I've changed it to "most popular" which is attributable to Blizzard itself. I therefore added a link, and cited it. If someone could find an independant source, that would be great. McKay 21:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, note that 14 million refers to the number of people it has reached, which isn't necesesarily to say it has that many active subscribers. IIRC WoW has sold more that 14 million copies of the game? McKay 21:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's legitimate to use Blizzard's own press release as a citation for Blizzard's game being the world's most popular MMO. IMHO, Lineage II's 14 million clearly shows it's more popular than WoW's 8.5 million. To address McKay, your comment can just as easily refer to WoW. 8.5 million copies sold does not mean WoW has 8.5 million subscribers. FeralDruid 21:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but WoW does have 8.5 million active subscribers. They've sold over 12 million copies of the original game, and over 3.5 million copies of the expansion. But there are 8.5 million people who've paid blizzard to play this month. [10] shows WoW in a strong dominating lead. Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 *combined* have about *one third* of WoWs population. Clearly WoW is the largest in population. McKay 22:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I hope this silliness is over. Lineage 2 has 610918 unique users for March 2007. the lineage 2 page has been updated. McKay 22:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Double-checking your most recent data (specifically the '07 reports), I finally concur that there are not 14 million active Lineage II subscribers.  :) Your 610K number is still suspect, considering my own addition of the monthly access numbers are closer to 1 million, but that's still a far cry from the 14 million claim posted on NCSoft's web site, and is a fraction of WoW's numbers. FeralDruid 17:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Rechecking, I get 610918 users for March 2007 in Lineage II. Perhaps you were looking at the numbers for lineage 1? Which I show as being 962638 users for the month of march 2007? The first time I looked at the quarterly report, I saw lineage 1 first, and made that same mistake. McKay 18:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

WoW does not have 8.5 million monthly subscribers since none of the players in China pay by the month. The word players would be less misleading. Whether it is the "largest" depends on which metric is used. For on this below. Shawnc 02:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Private Servers?

There are tons out there but I can't find any info on Wikipedia about them... Isn't playing WoW for free illegal? --Marshmello 20:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe Wikipedia's primary concerns isn't as much about legality, but of Notability. Wikipedia doesn't mention playing on private servers because playing on private servers isn't notable enough for inclusion. On the other hand, I think legally, playing on private servers is against the WoW terms of service, which if you're playing on a private server may or may not have been agreed by you. But the creation of a private server *would* be in violation of the terms of service for at least one person who agreed to it. It also is shaky on DMCA grounds to host a private server. The WoW client has to be modified in a way that is against the WoW terms of service also. McKay 21:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

version history and Linux

Under this section, it says "As of February 2007, Blizzard has not released a Linux version of the game." If we're going to list all the systems on which the game isn't released, it'd be a long list. I propose a) this sentence is simply removed and b) that people get over the fact it's never going to be released on Linux! (Simply use a win sim and problem is solved...) 85.227.226.168 15:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the sentence should be left in because of the notability of Linux. It's one of the top three most used systems by users today - along with Windows and Mac.--Marc ^Talk 16:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, some thoughts on the matter:

1. WP:A can we source that it "doesn't" run on linux? I'm pretty sure it can be run on linux through winmulation.
2. Just because it's the third most popular OS doesn't mean it should be mentioned. Similarly should we put a section on the Linux article saying "World of WarCraft doesn't run on linux"? After all, it is the most popular MMO, it needs to be in the article "because of the notability of [WoW]."
3. While Linux might be a popular MMO, when it comes to hardcore gamers, Linux doesn't have nearly the market. McKay 15:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems very out of place to me. Linux is notable, but This article is about WoW, not linux. That statment seems to be a hopeful statement by those who want a linux version rather than anything actuallly useful. Think of it this way: should we go through every single game article and put 'does not yet run on linux'? no we should not. Unless there was some sort of notable clamoring for a linux version that can be sourced, I would say that this statement should be removed. - Trysha ^(talk) 15:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

How about rephrasing it to something like "Although there is no official version for platforms other than Windows and Macintosh, support for World of Warcraft is present in Windows API implementations Wine and Cedega, allowing the game to be played on Linux and FreeBSD" (with references arranged appropriately)? Make the main focus of the sentence the fact that Wine/Cedega allow WoW to run on Linux and BSD, rather than the fact that Blizzard "have not released a Linux version". --Stormie 03:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a good idea to me, I'm implementing it now. Tengfred 07:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Is any of this attributable? Is it attributable that Wine and Cedega are complete enough for WoW? Sure we could do our own OR, but that wouldn't be in line with wikipedia guiding principles. McKay 14:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Well we got a couple of references linked there. I don't really know enough about the issue to evaluate them. --Stormie 01:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, WoW is not released for DOS either, nor is it available for Amiga, or the AS/400. Those are significant systems as well. But the article is about WoW, not Linux. WoW not running on Linux may be of interest to people that use Linux, but that is a minority of those that play (or would play) the game. And then you might as well put a flag on every program that does not work in Linux. Adobe Premiere, Halo, Halo 2, The Sims, Civilization IV, Neverwinter Nights 2, none of these run on Linux either. But there is no point making a not of that in the article, since it should be about what it does run on, not what it does not. 75.120.95.141 16:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Mmm, I think "WoW is not officially supported for Linux but some people are running it successfully" is slightly more interesting than "WoW does not run on an AS/400", and thus distinguishes Linux (and the BSDs) from DOS, Amiga, AS/400, etc. --Stormie 01:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Open source, cross-platform addon/mod updater

All the applications I've seen in the past were either broken, unimplemented or commercially intentioned until I discovered WUU - WoW UI Updater. It is coded in Python. Link it in the article if deemed appropriate.

Vista

Are you sure that WoW doesn't work on vista? 84.217.19.69 10:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess someone forgot to add it to the list since it does run perfictly fine in Vista. I'll add it to the info box harlock_jds 13:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Larger MMORPGs in China should be considered

None of the sources (MMOGchart.com, etc) mention WoW in relation to Chinese language-only MMORPGs, some of which are quite massive. Both Fantasy Westward Journey and Zhengtu have more peak concurrent players than WoW in China.[11] From what I can gather Fantasy Westward Journey already reached 25 million users in 2005 which was two years ago, and its Chinese Wikipedia page is giving a much larger figure now but it's unsourced. In any case, we should avoid claiming that "WoW is the most popular MMORPG in the world" until more sources compare all these games together. Shawnc 22:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Wikipedia cares first, and foremost about WP:Attributability. We have a references that show it as the largest. If some wikipedian does some original research, it is not valid for inclusion in wikipedia,
2. Even without Original Research, we don't have good sources for the number of subscribers.
3. We do have a good resource for number of concurrent users in China, but because both of those games are constrained to China, and WoW is worldwide, it can be presumed that WoW is actually larger than them, even by max concurrent users, because less than 1/2 of the WoW subscribers are in China.
4. Currently the article reads "subscription-based" as a class for inclusion. Are either of those other two games "subscription based"?

So, while I'm not dismissing your claim, you do have a lot of barriers to overcome. Feel free to keep working on it if you feel the claim is valid. With the mounting "evidence" against it, it doesn't really seem worth my time to do additional research (besides what I did in preparing this post). McKay 14:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• I disagree with Shawnc completely. 1st of all, this "From what I can gather Fantasy Westward Journey already reached 25 million users in 2005", I don't see any proof of this. Secondly, the link that you provided only proved how many players are on at a time, not total subscribers. On the contrary, I believe the WoW is the most popular MMORPS in the world should stay because all reliabile sources show that it is, and until you can disprove that statement, it stays. --sumnjim ^{talk with me·changes} 15:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

No, the citation for registered users was already provided in the Xinhua link in the Fantasy Westward Journey article (this one): "網易自主研發的《夢幻西遊Ｏｎｌｉｎｅ》，自２００４年１月上市以來，即受到年輕人的熱捧。據統計，目前《夢幻西遊Ｏｎｌｉｎｅ》的註冊人數已超過２５００萬." Xinhua is the official news agency of China. There is currently a systemic bias in English-language sources due to the language barrier.

FYI, registered users does not mean much in terms of revenue for MMORPGs in China, because of the payment is calculated on time played, not by the month. Peak concurrent users is more relevant for the Chinese market. 25 million users is hardly unbelievable because many of those people can be casual users who signed up for an account, play for an hour or two and quit. Shawnc 19:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's a reliable citation to support the fact that having 25 million registered users is not a lot for China nowadays: NetEase's less popular game, Westward Journey Online II, had over 50 million registered accounts by May 2005. This number came straight from the publisher: "By the May 2005, we have over 56 million registered accounts and over 467,269 peak concurrent users in the month, ranking "Westward Journey Online II" as one of the top 3 MMORPG games in China."[12] Shawnc 19:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

In case anyone is concerned about the reliability of the publisher, NetEase, it is a publicly traded company (traded on the Nasdaq) with a market cap of over $2 billion. Shawnc 19:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The reliability, notability of the publisher, game, or news source are not in question. Precisely what the article actually says is in question. This shouldn't be difficult, but it still needs to be done.

Then the comparison to WoW is important. Registered Users might compare to Number of Copies sold?

WP:OR is even more important. Just because "24 million copies of WoW have been sold to date" and "25 million users have registered for Fantasy Westward Journey" have both been printed. We can't say "FWJ is bigger in number of accounts created" because that would require synthesis of the two sources of information, and would hence be "Original Research". So we couldn't put it on wikipedia McKay 20:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

A problem of comparison is in the definition of "subscribers" vs "accounts", since players in China are not monthly subscribers; this is the case for both WoW and other games with a pay-for-playing-time model. I assume that WoW may have a larger number of world-wide concurrent users than other games (by the ratio of China/World-wide players as you pointed out), but it would be original research to claim this without a citation that gives that number directly.

In any case, the word "most popular" is rather imprecise and misleading, because there exists numerous ways to measure popularity: number of registered/paying accounts, number of monthly subscribers (people who pay regularly by the month), world-wide peak concurrent users, world-wide average concurrent users.

One idea is to write, instead, that WoW has the largest number of monthly subscribers. This would make comparisons to China unnecessary at this point because none of the popular games in China are based on a monthly subscription. Wouldn't that be more precise? Shawnc 20:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The GigaOM citation currently used also emphasized this difference: "Important qualification, though: only 4 million are based in the West and monthly subscribers, while its 4 million Chinese players only pay roughly 4 cents an hour to play it in Internet cafes." For clarity, this should be pointed out in this article as well (that "not all players are monthly subscribers"). MMOChart's data on subscribers mixes the two up as well.

The following article talks about Zhengtu Online having more concurrent users than World Of Warcraft in China: [13]. Shawnc 22:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

---

Considering the above, I propose that the intro be edited as follows (changes in bold):

Although its initial release was hampered by server stability and performance issues, the game became a financial success and the world's largest MMORPG in terms of monthly subscribers.

On March 7, 2007, Blizzard announced that the user base for World of Warcraft had reached a new milestone, with 8.5 million players worldwide.

There are more than 2 million players in North America, 1.5 million players in Europe, and 3.5 million players in China as of January, 2007

Using the monthly subscriber metric makes its popularity less controversial, and using the word "user" instead of "subscriber" is less misleading since not all regions have a subscription system. Shawnc 02:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

character monitoring websites?

Can you list all of the websites that monitor characters, guilds, do rankings etc? There used to be a really good website that I found by google search but i no longer can find it. I can't remember what it was called but it is not listed in the article. Any ideas? Thanks. I like to monitor my friends progress every once in a while since I've quit the game. Tkjazzer 03:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place to list non-notable websites. Having said that, [Blizzard's Armory] does a decent job at it. (I'm also a fan of [14] but it's got some issues currently) McKay 17:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Add to category: Electronic sports games

I believe that the World of Warcraft article should be added to the category Electronic sports games as it being played competitively in the World Series of Video Games. I wanted to make sure that others are in agreement because last time I added it to that category it was removed. --Credema 23:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

yes it should be since Bliz is making a push in that arena.harlock_jds 23:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I have added the page to the category. --Credema 21:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Reordered draft in my sandbox

While I never played WoW, I'm interested in seeing this article get fixed to be promoted to a higher quality status, so I thought I'd try fixing the order of the page's sections per what the list above wants. Here I haven't changed any of the text content other than merge the Third Party Extensions section into the Modifications section. I only changed the ordering of all the page's sections so that some become subsections of others. Hope this helps with the cleanup. Erik Jensen ^{(Appreciate|Laugh At)} 05:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)