Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games

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New Articles (19 September to 29 September)[edit]

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Salavat (talk) 07:08, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (29 September to 6 October)[edit]

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Salavat (talk) 07:54, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Unsourced reception[edit]

I found a number of articles that have unsourced reception sections. As I understand it, including anything in the reception section without a source is a no-no. In some cases, what people posted there is probably just WP:OR that can be removed, and hopefully there are real sources out there that can be used to build a legitimate reception section. In other cases, someone added mentions of legitimate sources, but did not actually include any citations - so it's impossible to tell if those are truly legitimate, or if the person who added it was just being lazy or careless. 65.126.152.254 (talk) 22:06, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Extended content

Of these, I would note that Tactical Ops: Assault on Terror is up for AFD, although based on the discussion it looks likely to be kept. 2600:1700:E820:1BA0:F547:54CF:BB57:887D (talk) 01:05, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, all statements are supposed to be supported by sources, per WP:V. It's up to individual editors to decide whether they want to delete it, find and add a source, or tag it as "citation needed", often depending on the ability and likelihood of finding a source. Sergecross73 msg me 01:54, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Good list to work through, should be useful :) ~Mable (chat) 11:34, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes indeed! I'm sure some that the reception sections of a lot of these articles can be sourced! 73.168.15.161 (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
More for the list: The Adventures of Robin Hood (video game), Army Men: Major Malfunction, and Avalon (video game). 73.168.15.161 (talk) 22:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I removed Sonic Pinball Party and Namco Museum Battle Collection from the list as they have been addressed, although the latter could certainly use more sources. 73.168.15.161 (talk) 15:46, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
I also removed Mayhem in Monsterland from the list as it has been addressed. 73.168.15.161 (talk) 18:51, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Double Dungeons was much improved, so I removed that one as well. 2600:1700:E820:1BA0:F547:54CF:BB57:887D (talk) 16:34, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
The unsourced opinions were removed from Tweenies: Doodles' Bones, but the article is still lacking sources. 65.126.152.254 (talk) 21:28, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

What about Talisman:Digital Edition?[edit]

I think that video games as Talisman:Digital Edition who represents traditional board games should have an article. It represents the Dungeon and Dragons typical structure and many people around the globe still enjoy this gender of video games and board games.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SplitShadow (talkcontribs) 12:29, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (5 October to 13 October)[edit]

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Salavat (talk) 04:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Classic Home Video Games 1972-1984: reliable source?[edit]

What is the position of WP:VG on the book Classic Home Video Games 1972-1984, by Brett Weiss? A quick Google search indicates it's already used in quite a few articles. Nevertheless, as far as I can tell, there's never been an explicit judgment made on it one way or another. This book is the only substantial coverage that exists for a whole spate of older games, so it would be useful. Phediuk (talk) 23:06, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

McFarland & Company is a reputable publisher, so the book is assumed to have received baseline editing. For those interested, the title should be available through Wikipedia:McFarland. czar 23:47, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Agree with Czar that it's a real book published through a real publisher, so it's likely pretty good as a source. General caveat for this era of gaming is that the "history" aspects of any book are likely to be suspect regardless of publisher, so comparing multiple sources is usually needed; that said, this appears to be more of a discusion on individual games instead of the industry as a whole, in which case it should be just fine on its own. I've applied for access through the link Czar posted. I'm likely the most active editor in the <1975 video game space, though I've never read this book; I'm excited- pre-1972 is covered by other books more or less, but works covering 1972-1980 mostly focus on arcade games, so that's what I've been doing. Wish this did computer games too, but console fills in a good gap by itself and lots of stuff got ported all over the place. --PresN 02:56, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Super Mario Bros. draft[edit]

Hi everyone, I've recently been working on a draft to improve the Super Mario Bros. page at User:TheJoebro64/drafts/SMB. I was wondering if anyone was willing to assist? I'm probably going to need a bit of help writing the reception section and copyediting. JOEBRO64 20:05, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Wasn't the article a GA until recently? Does it really need a complete reworking like this? Sergecross73 msg me 21:36, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
And even if it did, is there any reason why you can't just edit the mainspace article piece by piece over time? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:37, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
The reason I'm completely re-writing it from the ground up is because the article was a GA from 2007 until this year (when I removed it per consensus at a GAR). The current version of the article is a complete mess -- it's way too detailed, poorly written (just look at the music section, for example), and unreliably sourced (sources like multiple "TheMushroomKingdom" refs and a Wordpress blog). The reason I'm re-writing it from scratch is because I find it easier than editing in mainspace (it's how I got Sonic Colors and Batman: A Death in the Family to much better-looking articles) JOEBRO64 21:44, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough I suppose, the article is badly written for how well known the game is. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:38, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I didn't know TMK was no longer considered reliable. AFAIR it was situational (okay for facts but does not establish notability). Ben · Salvidrim!  23:57, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
@Salvidrim!: Got bumped in May: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources/Archive 17#TheMushroomKingdom --PresN 01:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

2017-18 Dota Pro Circuit template up for deletion[edit]

Thought I'd give WT:VG a notice for a relevant TfD. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

1001 Video Games You Must Play Before You Die[edit]

Does anyone have a copy of this book? I'd like to know what it says about Super Mario Bros., since I'd like to add its commentary to my current draft's reception (see my above discussion). JOEBRO64 20:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Here you go. CurlyWi (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! JOEBRO64 21:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Notability question[edit]

Hi everyone,

Does a listicle like List of cultural references to Game Grumps need a third-party source that mention these cultural references, or can the article point to the cultural references itself? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 06:48, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:IPCEXAMPLES, each reference has to be pointed out by multiple third party sources. "Unremarkable mentions" are discouraged, so if it's just someone's cameo name or picture, that isn't really a notable thing. Pretty much the entire article is filled with small cameo appearances in various media, which means it's likely not an encyclopedic list.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 09:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I really can't believe that the list itself is notable. This looks like the kind of junk that wouldn't last at the parent article, let alone on its own. Strongly support merger/deletion. Sergecross73 msg me 12:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
There is zero reason to have that list as a separate article. It needs to be post-haste merged back into the main Game Grumps page (which is nowhere close to a critical size), and trimmed per WP:TRIVIA (where only third-party RSes discuss the connection). --MASEM (t) 14:06, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't see this as notable at all. The lack of sources only reinforces this. --ProtoDrake (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Publisher Template[edit]

Hello everyone. While perusing Wikipedia, I realized something that made no sense to me; the utter lack of a video game publisher template. I realized that "some" publishers were listed on the "Major information technology companies" template, but that also never made sense to me. For one, video game companies aren't information technology companies. Secondly, the template's setup and methodology would exclude that vast majority of publishers. Thirdly, the template is already unwieldy and very big. So, I figured it would make sense to make a better, tighter, cleaner alternate and remove the video game companies from the information technology template, as I feel they were just stuck on their because there was no other place to put them. I already have a working draft template here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rogue_Commander/sandbox. I would appreciate some critique and feedback from other members of the video game wiki project before making any unilateral changes.Rogue Commander (talk) 22:54, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

  • What is your criteria for classifying them as big/medium/small publisher size? Without objective criteria, there will be endless arguments. (Is Sega large or medium? Is Atlus small or medium? Etc etc) Sergecross73 msg me 23:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't think we should do this either, but hypothetically we could only include publishers that have more than one game that sold more than a million copies or something. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 06:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Without reliable sources classifying publishers in some way, it would end up being OR. Even criteria like the number of sold copies is unrepresentative. For example, Zynga has sold 0 copies, because all games are mobile F2Ps. Or a niche publisher who sells 100k copies for 80$ is not the same as casual publisher who sells 1M copies for 3$ or something. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 11:38, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
What about companies that are developers and publishers? Or companies that used to be developers but are now only publishers; and vice versa? - X201 (talk) 07:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry I was late to respond to this. For some reason Wikipedia sent me no notifications regarding this page, even though I was watching it. I looked at two possible criteria for this template: Criteria one, was to look at applicable revenues of the companies involved, Criteria two was to look at number of listed personnel cut the numbers off at certain points. The problem with both criteria is that the company pages of many of these publishers lack either one or both of these numbers. So I had to come up with a hybrid system to account for his. Platform owners are just that: platform owners who also publish games. Of course all three console makers are included. Valve and CDProjekt are also included because they own the largest independent game retail platforms on the PC. I avoided publisher specific platforms, like Origin, and focused on general storefronts in order to keep this section from including any company that bothers to create one and focus on those who give platforms all other game companies. For former publishers, I focused on only on those companies that were major publishers that either went completely defunct, like Midway and THQ, simply left the video game business, like Majesco, or who merged with/were acquired by another company and ceased to exist entirely, like Eidos. Companies that had an equal partner merger are not counted separately, like Square Enix. Companies that got bought out by another publisher, but still exist, only allowing their new parent to publish for them, are also not included (think Atlus). For the Small publishers, I focused on the following: companies that primarily only self publish, or publish themselves and maybe a few others; or companies that publish in their home market but maybe published by others in foreign markets; and (this overlaps with the other two company criteria for his section) independent publishers with less than 1000 personnel listed on their company pages, regardless of where they publish. For Midsize publishers, I focused on independent publishers that had at least 1000 personnel, but less than 5000 and/or had less than $1 billion in FY2014/15 applicable revenues (the latter is the methodology used to include a video game company on the major info companies template). For major publishers, I focused on independents that had: a)At least 5000 personnel employed, and/or b)companies that had at least $1 billion in FY2014/15 applicable revenues.Rogue Commander (talk) 02:50, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Still not sold on this. You've created no hard restriction for small publishers, so that list will become unwieldy quick. Even if you limit the list to midsize and up, people will bitch and moan aaaaalll daaay about how publishers be categorized, the definitions of those categories, and which publishers to include. Also, who are we to decide what defines a major publisher vs mid-size vs small. The methodology should be based off reliable sources, not Template:Major information technology companies. TarkusABtalk 11:36, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Do you have any suggestions? There aren't that many publishers that fit into this criteria, especially the upper ones. That's why we are here, to hash out one. The Major information technology companies template obviously had some kind of discussion to hash out their methodology, and that probably required a lot of "bitching and moaning". I wasn't actually basing it off that template, per se, but I considered US$1 billion a reasonable cutoff since so few game publishers reach that milestone. Its not like there are any hard definitions regarding AAA and AA publishers, its more of an informal general perception; this criteria actually lines up with that general perception fairly well, so people complaining about the placement of the companies should be minimal. If you want an objective criteria, the closest you will get is the "Major publishers" list on the game publishers Wikipedia page, but that just list the largest companies by their revenue in the billions of Euros. At least this criteria is based on something tangible that we can calculate and measure and once its set, it will be there and no one can just go "but I think this" without having a discussion or risk getting their edits reverted. As for the smaller publishers, a minimal number of, say, employees, like no less than 10, should take care of smaller indies that just so happen to self publish. At 15 people, Devolver Digital would probably be the smallest company to hit that list. This list encompasses all the big names people would be likely to think of when it comes to "game publishers" and then some. The chances of anyone actually adding more to this list are minimal.Rogue Commander (talk) 12:14, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
The problems are two-fold - 1) I share TarkusAB's concerns - the standards for classificaiton are rather arbitrary will lead to all sorts of arguments and 2) even if they were tightened up, its not intuitive, and a template is not a good format for something that isn't intuitive. This sort of thing could (in theory, hypothetically) work well as a list or article, because you could include prose explaining these sorts of detailed classification criteria. But there's no room for that in a template. Because there's no where to explain all that, you're still gonna have the same sort of issues occurring all the time (Switching Sega between medium and large, adding 3 person dev teams on, etc etc.) It's something you learn while spending a lot of time editing Wikipedia - if its not a concrete, black and white type situation, this sort of thing either requires constant maintenance, or falls quickly into disrepair. I'm against it as well. Sergecross73 msg me 12:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Would you feel better about the list if the groupings were removed completely and simple minimum for inclusion was set instead, like the major info technology template?Rogue Commander (talk) 13:40, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
That's better but it's still not intuitive like Serge said. Per WP:NAV, navboxes should feature articles that are "established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles". The articles would not be related except for being above some arbitrary threshold we set here that is not based on reliable sources. If you can find reliable sources that repeatedly identify the same threshold/criteria and agree on the same set of major publishers that meet this criteria, you can make a case for a template, but I don't think you'll find any cohesive agreement among sources because in reality, there is no fine line which defines major publishers, it's all gray. TarkusABtalk 14:27, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
It seems though that defining a minimum would easier than defining a multi tiered methodology, wouldn't you say? And does a list as it is now, minus the differing definitions and sections, already satisfy the requirement that articles in this navbox are "established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles." They are related by the fact that they are all video game publishers and template is only a list of video game publishers. The threshold would be for keeping the list from being too cluttered with small self publishing teams of 3 guys in garage. i don't know how Template:Major information technology companies came up with their methodology. I don't even know what the methodology behind Template:Electronics industry in Japan is. But clearly a consensus was reached that enabled these templates to exist stably. The real question I guess would have to be if a threshold is even necessary if we make it a general list and forego having specified sections, other than having separate sections form existing and defunct companies. Would anyone even bother to list the 3 guys in their garage on this template?Rogue Commander (talk) 14:43, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
It seems though that defining a minimum would easier than defining a multi tiered methodology, wouldn't you say?
— Yes, but I don't think we should be placing any line in the sand that isn't first drawn by reliable sources.
And does a list as it is now, minus the differing definitions and sections, already satisfy the requirement that articles in this navbox are "established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles."
— If only ~20 publishers existed, I would agree. But the sheer excess of publishers requires us to find a more tight relationship between the specific publishers we include in the template. That threshold needs to first be identified by RSs.
i don't know how Template:Major information technology companies came up with their methodology[...]But clearly a consensus was reached that enabled these templates to exist stably.
—Frankly, I think both those templates are horrible. Way too large in scope and tough to navigate. I think we run a tighter ship here at WP:VG, and we wouldn't create a method ahead of RSs.
Would anyone even bother to list the 3 guys in their garage on this template?
— Yes, the VG community is much more passionate about their favorite niche publishers than followers of IT companies. :)
I think I've said my piece on this. Curious on others' thoughts. TarkusABtalk 16:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe I've mostly said my piece on this as well, though I will add that, yes, I think one of the most frequently recurring issues on Wikipedia is fan's tendency for example bloat, so yes, I believe that passerby editors would frequently bloat the template up with every single minor video game company under the sun. (Different subject area, but to illustrate what I mean with a recent example, look at this, where I removed over 30 examples of bands that have more than one main singer. 30 examples in the prose to illustrate such a basic, easily understood concept. The tendency for example bloat on Wikipedia is insane.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:49, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I would also like to here other people's thoughts on this though I thank you both for your feedback. and that bloated singer list was...abysmal. A minimum would probably be necessary in that case, and a renaming to make it clear we are talking about independent publishers/publisher subsidiaries of conglomerates and not internal publishing brands/subsidiaries of larger publishers (i.e. Activision Blizzard are already listed, so there is no reason to list Blizzard and Activision separately even though they do publish under their own names, same with Koei Tecmo). That by itself will cut down potential conflict. The minimum itself might be slightly harder. But I'll try to wait for others suggestions before chiming in more.Rogue Commander (talk) 20:58, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
As above, without reliable sources, any categorization is WP:OR. And, as far as I have seen while maintaining stuff like List of video game publishers, sources do not classify publishers in any standard way. I don't much see a point in navbox that lists all publishers we have, while anything else is subjective classification. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:29, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Navboxes are for simplified navigation between related articles. I don't see how the proposed set of publishers are in any way connected, especially such that they would need to be linked beneath their articles. The existing list adequately addresses the function. czar 23:53, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
    • That list unwieldy and damn near unreadable, and I bet its a pain in the neck to maintain and update. How many people would really want to wade through that at all? The Automotive industry has like five lists of marquees/companies/manufacturers that are just as long and unwieldy. It used to have a list of the largest manufacturers that was even worse. And yet, alongside those lists they have multiple navboxes, large, unwieldy navboxes, divided around national automotive industries, that still list automobile marquees/companies/manufacturers. If the purpose is ease of navigation, would a publisher navbox function in that better than a list of that nature? Should we follow the automotive industry section Wikipedia and have multiple navboxes based around national video game industries?Rogue Commander (talk) 01:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Retro Revival Consoles[edit]

So I was kicking around the idea of an article consisting of the NES Classic and the SNES Classic and wondered do we have a name for these and with said name should we have an article? I feel there will be more of these eventually. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 20:01, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

See also Neo Geo X - unlike the Nintendo ones, it's a handheld console that plays remasters of Neo Geo games- both 20 built-in ones and 15 separately-sold ones. --PresN 20:59, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Typically classed as dedicated consoles. The Atari Flashbacks are the longest running series probably. -- ferret (talk) 22:00, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't know, there's a difference between a dedicated console (a console with games built into it instead of accepting an indefinite amount of seperate games) and a "retro console" (a console designed to play games, built in or not, that were originally released decades prior), even if most retro consoles are dedicated consoles. Not sure if there's enough for an article, but dedicated consoles were among the first consoles ever released, so it's a bit conflative to combine a 1970s Pong console and a 2010s pseudo-SNES. --PresN 23:19, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Did you invent this term? Is it your own neologism? Otherwise, I would say this is a good topic for an article. SharkD  Talk  04:36, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Compilations[edit]

Did we ever get a consensus on whether or not the "platforms" field in the video game infobox should include appearances in compilations?--Martin IIIa (talk) 20:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

I think the answer be "No" if it's emulation (which it is in most compilations), and "Yes" if it's a proper port. TarkusABtalk 20:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
This. The same guidelines we use for standalone releases should also apply to appearances in compilations. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:26, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Cool. Thanks, guys.--Martin IIIa (talk) 15:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (14 October to 20 October)[edit]

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Salavat (talk) 06:20, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Why is there a Swedish draft of PUBG on the EN wiki? It has to be a mistake, right? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:05, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I would go for deletion here since it’s a unsourced foreign language draft for an aricle than already exists on the English Wikipedia.--67.68.21.146 (talk) 20:26, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
  • @Dissident93: It seems to be a direct translation of the current version of the enwp article, with the references removed(???), presumably to be moved over to svwp. I don't know what the typical procedure is here, but it's clearly not material intended to be used on enwp in any way.--IDVtalk 20:32, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Well, I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you, but the draft itself is a Swedish translation of our English PUBG article, so it makes no sense to add a request for a swe-eng translation.--IDVtalk 23:10, 21 October 2017 (UTC)