Talk:Edmund the Martyr

Dates

The wording of this latest change appears confused, but it could imply there is a need for a large-scale revision of the dates in several articles dealing with English history around the time of the invasion of East Anglia and Wessex by the Great Heathen Army. Maybe there is, but this needs discussion and clear sources. PatGallacher 20:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England article "Edmund, St, King of East Anglia" [authored by Marco Mostert], begins:"The Anglo Saxon Chronicle (MS. A) notes the death of King Edmund of East Anglia at the hands of a Viking army under 870 (=869)." Seems pretty clear cut. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Have we got the right dates for the Viking invasion of Wessex fairly soon afterwards then? PatGallacher 21:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The attack on Alfred at Chippenham was on 6 January 878, Alfred collected an armyat Easter 878, and the battle of Eddington was fought in the summer of 878. As of 878, the Great Army had taken large parts of Mercia and Northumbria, but it wouldn't be true to say that they had conquered either completely. Ceolwulf (II) was still king in Mercia, probably until 879x881. Most likely he was killed in battle in north Wales, and not fighting Danes. Claims that Ceolwulf was a puppet king bear more than a passing resemblance to the blackening of King John Balliol's reputation after Bruce became king. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

As the person who inserted this edit, may I provide a reference? Follow the link to the Edmund pages of the Western Michigan University Medieval Institute (on the main page) and click on the article by Dorothy Whitelock Fact and Fiction in the Legend of St Edmund, where the dating of the martyrdom is discussed.Edmund869 22:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

That's here. Interesting stuff. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, actually what I was thinking about was the first major Viking invasion of Wessex, when Ethelred was king but he died and Alfred took over, which included battles like Ashdown and Marten. Was this in 870 or 871? Did the Great Heathen Army move on to Wessex more or less immediately after killing Edmund, or was there a gap of about a year? PatGallacher 00:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

According to the most recent scholarship, as exemplified by Michael Swanton's edition of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (revised edition 2000) the Great Army stayed in East Anglia for most of 870, arriving in Reading in the late Autumn. The first battle (Englefield ) is dated 870, the others you mention are given an 871 date.The Danes were reinforced by the Summer fleet that arrived in the Thames just before Easter, and Alfred's brother Aethelred was killed soon after Easter. Alfred therefore came to the throne of Wessex about 18 months after Edmund was killed in East Anglia. Towards the end of 871 the Danes left Reading for London.Edmund869 15:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That answers some questions, but still leaves some others. I thought the "Great Summer Army" was Bagsecg's army, who was killed at Ashdown in January some year. So what year did he and his army arrive? Or is the "Summer fleet" something different and later from Bagsecg? PatGallacher 22:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It is quite clear from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle that the battle of Ashdown (and therefore the death of Bagsecg) preceded the arrival of the summer army (or fleet - the Old English word is sumerlida). Both events occurred between January and September 871, so there is no conflict between the Anglo-Saxon year (September to August) and the modern year.I do not know how the tradition that Bagsecg came over with a summer army arose, but I am not aware of any contemporary sources that would support this idea - which is not to say that they do not exist. As far as the Chronicle is concerned, Bagsecg is only mentioned once, when his death is recorded.Edmund869 15:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Britannica gives Edmund's death date as Nov. 20 870. PatGallacher 17:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The Blackwell Enyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England says 869. No contest. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

For editing on 23 April 2007. Battle site: Dernford in Cambridgeshire - see link on subject page. Bradfield St Clare as site of capture / martydom.; short note in the proceeding of the Suffolk Institute (paper by Stanley West) Edmund Patrick 12:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

869 seems to be the accepted date. Also listed as such in the trusted Oxford Dictionary of the Chritian Church -- SECisek 12:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Link

removed link to homosexuals. as neither back up the assertion that he was / is the patron saint. --Edmund Patrick 18:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Cross of St. Edmund

Please can someone cite some sources to support the Cross of St. Edmund. (please remember to sign. thanks --Edmund Patrick 13:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC))

edits by 79.72.229.201

can anyone verify the preposition that However, since saints are canonised and assigned patronages by the Catholic church as I feel that this is incorrect. one has to say that other religions have figures that can be equated to patron saints. an other addition - However, this is not true since, as Perrin (1922) states, the prohibition of the veneration of saints Edmund and Edward (the Confessor) occured during the Reformation, specifically, under the reign of Edward II and the introduction of the Book of Common Prayer I cannot find in Perrin am I missing it? And Indeed, the banners of Sts. Edmund and Edmund were carried into battle at Agincourt verification? and finally and the feasts of the saints are still venerated in the Catholic liturgical calendar - They maybe but does that mean that they are still the patron saint. I also believe that if you asked anyone how many and who are the patron saint of england the answer would be one and St George. If no-one disagrees I will remove. I for the obvious reason cannot talk to the editor. --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 08:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

"other religions have figures that can be equated to patron saints", St. Edmund was not an 'other religion'; he was a Catholic and martyred for his Catholic faith and no other.

"prohibition of the veneration of saints Edmund and Edward": Perrin P40 (but should have written under Edward VI)

"Edmund and Edmund were carried into battle at Agincourt": Perrin P35

"They maybe but does that mean that they are still the patron saint": As I wrote the Catholic Church canonizes saints etc. and Edmund has never been decanonized... but how would you suggest one cites a negative? There is no record of his decanonization.

"if you asked anyone how many and who are the patron saint of england the answer would be one": because we now live in a secular country and its inhabitants are ignorant... but that's no excuse... or reason to remove it... surely an encylopedia is for education.

"I for the obvious reason cannot talk to the editor": Oh yes you can! Most of what I wrote is contained within Perrin's British Flag (which you claim to have) and Catholic websites, so you have all the information at you fingertips.

unsigned is meaningless as if someone cannot stand by their knowledge it says something about the knowledge, and the respect of the rules of the talk page. (See Above). And how do I contact an editor through Perrin. but I will check now that there is more information available and I look forward to seeing the references on the article page. --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 08:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"unsigned is meaningless" well it has certainly got you in a tizz Ed. I've forced you to add citations, reach for the reference books and, most importantly, forced you to recant your wild claims (Norman suppession and all that)... so not doing too bad for "meaningless" am I?

Oh yeah, and some of your references are suspect too, so I've added some clarification to aid the reader... Happy citing!

if you looked at the page history I did not add the (Norman suppession and all that), but someone who signs their work did. Enough said. Also working through your cites it all helps make an encyclopedia knowledgeable. As always with Latin always open to different interpretations. (see horology)--Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 18:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I have a Roman Catholic saint book with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur. It lists ONLY one saint as patron of England and that is George. I also removed some nonsense about Edward IV from the article and added the saint's attributes. What ever ax there is to grind about patronage of England, it should be kept out of the article. Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs: WP:NOT -- SECisek 22:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with some of the clearing that you undertook but after the anonymous editor stated that St Edmund and St Edward the Confessor were never removed from their role I could find no statement when this happened so it was new knowledge to me; could you please show your research. The fact that one publication states who IS the Patron Saint does not mean that the others are not still. In many ways it is academic as most in England would state St George but as an encyclopedia wiki should say if there are more, and more importantly that at one time St Edmund and St Edward the Confessor were the Patron Saint of England. Thanks --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 09:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually it was Edward VI, but a simple bit of research would have revealed this to you. Infact I even mentioned above. It is relevent because it refutes the suggestion that the Normans tried to remove Edmund's veneration.

Removed as patron? The anon. IP address, which BTW belongs to a troll - that is how I discovered this controversy - posted above, "As I wrote the Catholic Church canonizes saints etc. and Edmund has never been decanonized... but how would you suggest one cites a negative? There is no record of his decanonization."

He is totaly wrong. Decanonized? Edmund was NEVER even canonized by Rome, but was made a saint by general acclaim, as often happened at that time. That is why he is not on the Roman Calendar or in the Roamn lists. Try and find a date for his canonization or the pope who did it. You wont because it didn't happen. That doesn't mean he is not a saint nor that he wasn't patron of England. He was and the article mentions that, but he is not patron of England anymore. He was superceded by Edward the Confessor. As for a record of Edward's "decanonization" none exists because he too is still a saint, although he was dropped from the universal Roman Catholic Calendar and list in 1969 by Pope Paul VI. Look up patron of France (Sts Martin, Denis, Joan of Arc) or Italy (Sts Joseph, Francis, Catherine) and you will find more then one saint listed. England has only ONE listed, only ONE: George. The drive to have Edmund reinstated as patron (if he already is a patron, why the drive?) is run by a fringe group that earns almost no mention outside of East Anglia. They are worth a mention in the article, but no more. As an American, I have no passion or interest in this other then seeing a correct, NPOV article for this king and saint.

I never said he was canonised by Rome. get you facts right. BTW "general acclaim" still required the approval of the local Bishop/Primate. I even quoted the source (St. Augustine) to highlight the process. Try doing some research into the subject

You clearly don't under stand how the liturgical calendar is composed. Let me explain. You start with the universal calendar, then a nation/region add their nation calendar and then a diocese adds there Dioceseon calendar. Just because a staint doesn't appear in the universal calendar in doesn't mean he isn't a patron e.g. St. David of wales. Once, again RESEARCH before making stupid comments.

"You wont because it didn't happen", wrong, all you can say is that there is no record (or at least public record).

"He was superceded by Edward the Confessor", cite you source, if that was the case why were both banners carried at agincourt and other battle (again, read Perrin "British Flags").

"but he is not patron of England anymore", please prove this. Cite a source which shows his patronage was removed. You can't —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 79.74.238.223 (talk) 23:05:08, August 18, 2007 (UTC)

Since the XIX century, St Peter has been the Roman Catholic Patron of England, not George, Edward, or Edmund:

"On 2 June 1893, Pope Leo XIII demoted St George as patron saint for the English, relegating him to the secondary rank of 'national protector' and replaced him with St Peter as the Patron Saint of England. The change was solemnly announced by Herbert Cardinal Vaughan in the Brompton Oratory. This papal pronouncement served to exclude the Catholic Church in England from a day which is part of English tradition."

Wiki quote with no reference. And not true. He desired to make Peter "...St Peter as the principal patron..." note the work principal... meaning there were others, the fact that St. George was nolonger the "principal" did not mean that he was no longer a patron.

He also "devotion to these "two patrons of the faith" and 'guardians of all virtue" be revived" implying that St Peter was previously the "principal" patron (the other patron was Mary's Dowry).

Try reading "The Church of Old England" volume 3, Catholic Truth Society, 1894

100 years later the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales submitted this new calendar for approval in 1993, and it was approved in 2000 by JPII. The new calendar adds one solemnity, the highest-ranking feastday, that

of St. George, patron of England.

So once again, get your fact right and do some reseach.

Anon. troll is totaly wrong. Don't let the trolls get ta ya. I will work on citing this article in total. I'll adopt it with you. Let's make it GA. -- SECisek 10:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Click here -- SECisek 20:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Citations

It seems that every sentence which I wrote required a citation even the snippit "However, this is not true since..." which did continue with a reference to Perrin (1922). Plus a request for a citation for a non-existant event!

It is only fair then in the interests of accuracy and precision that the same policy be adopted throughout this article and not just to the content added by myself. There appears to be numerous claims without citations. I have made a start at highlighting them.

another unsigned statement. But I am trying to answer some of the valid questions that you have raised.

Information is important and an encyclopedia is a place for knowledge so everything helps. Two things (1) the patron saint was added to match the criteria and requirements put down by a senior editor (look at the history for the notification) but please let me know what I was try to do (ah but are you the one that asked that ? who knows). And (2)citations are useful because for example suddenly the wolf was a big grey wolf - never heard that part before - which returned for the second burial of St Edmund - never heard that part before - was sent by God - never heard that part before - to protect the head until it could be found. So it is great that this knowledge is added but it has to be verified. You will see that some of the citations have ben added to information that I and others have added which rightly do require verification. A signed statement under the talk page guidelines . --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 09:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

to 85.189.181.99

well done for removing Eastern from the list of religions in which St Edmund was / is venerated, I found no proof of that from wikipedia or external sources. In my research I did find that wikipedia does not list him as venerated by the Roman Catholic Church [1] and [2] are but two sites within the Saints Portal, there maybe more. The information will have to be referenced and as you know your way around such sites - hopefully I hand it to you. You may also think about joining the Saints Portal group they I am sure could do with your knowledge and assistance. Thanks --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 10:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

No, not well done. Edmund is a saint in the Orthodox tradition as he was recognized as such before the schism. Here is one Orthodox site on him: [3]. -- SECisek 13:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

to the unsigned bit above, Anon removed Eastern from the Saints Portal, well done for finding Western, will you add it? Discussions about "eastern" and "western" Orthodox you will have to take up with the Saints Portal group. I am only using the tools provided. --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 12:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

How about citing a primary source??????? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 79.74.238.223 (talk) 22:59:19, August 18, 2007 (UTC)

"Western" refers to liturgical rite, they are still "Eastern Orthodox".

See here Western Rite Orthodoxy. Added. It may be getting close to GA. -- SECisek 13:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

excellent thanks for that, I have learnt something new. I have re added the link to the historical reference to St Edmunds' being King. This adds more of the historical character of his life alongside his religious importance. --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 17:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean the 1911 enyclopedia site? They will make us throw the cite during GA review because it is wiki cite that anyone can edit. Do you know of another site, a BBC bio or something? -- SECisek 19:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

development of the page

moved our discussion as it had moved on from my talk with one of the anons! The page is Looking Good - well on its way. I will source another link to historical St Edmund, in the first sentence it adds more depth. Good point about 1911 link. Thanks --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 09:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

picture edit excellent, very powerful image at the beginning. Good One. We might soon get told off for the amount of small edits that we are doing, will try to incorporate more into one change at this end. --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 13:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I edit on the fly like this all the time and nobdy has ever told me off...yet. Interesting, some of the "Edmund for patron" people appear to be racist nationalists:

[4] click on "English History". Do you have more material? I may send it for GA soon. -- SECisek 13:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I know some more about the tree and what was found in it, just a case of finding the information again. Certain groups are cattracted to St Edmund - he existed - he was 'English' more than St George; to dilute this was one of the reasons that others tried to widen the appeal. Sufflok County Council UK has adopted his banner as part of their flag. Number 10 Downing Street in reply to a letter said they had no intension at the moment to change the patron saint. --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 15:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow, can we get an image of the banner for that paragraph? I think I have done all I can for the page. Let me know when you have finished and I will nominate for GA. -- SECisek 17:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

after a bit of research not sure even an image exists yet, the decision was very recent. I will keep an eye on it and update when I can. --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 08:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

reference link to 12 does not seem to be working, I cannot see why - can you --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 11:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

made a start with historical link--Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 13:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Great work on that BBC article! The Edmund campaign seems to have been dealt a blow by the PM. This needs to added. Link 12 (now 13) seems to work on my browser. -- SECisek 18:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Moved

Moved from the article: W.G. Perrin also states, the prohibition of the veneration of saints Edmund and Edward (the Confessor) occurred during the Reformation specifically, under the reign of Edward VI and the introduction of the Book of Common Prayer

Yes, veneration of all saints was prohibited in England for a short period of time. What of it? If they had singled out Edmund and Edward, it would be relevent, but they didn't. His cult was suppresed in Geneva, Luthern Germany, and everywhere else in the Protestant world, but that isn't really what this article is about. Cromwell again suppresed the saints in England during the Commonwealth, but it isn't worthy of note here.

Indeed, when the Castle of Carlaverock was taken in 1300 the banners of SS Edmund and Edward were borne, as they were also at the battle of Agincourt (1415) and the feasts of the saints are still venerated in the Catholic liturgical calendar.

Indeed what? How does this clarify the above statement. Moreover, we know that the feasts are still kept in Catholic calendars beacuse it is mentioned already that the three main Churches of the Catholic World (Roman, Orthodox, and Anglican) keep the feasts. This material is sourced, but what is it in aid of? -- SECisek 19:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Patron

Reworked, fact checked, and cited. Should be agreeable to all. -- SECisek 20:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

GA

Articles I nominated 3+ weeks ago still have not been reviewed, so I will stick this in the queue now. It could pass as is. If anybody has any other constructive additions between now and the review, please be bold. -- SECisek 06:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

well done, I think a good value judgement on putting forward, factual and interesting at the same time - not an easy combination sometimes. Ref 14 not showing source and at this stage I'm not sure I can remember what reference that was. Can you assist. --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 09:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing the article today, standby for comments. The Rambling Man 12:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

GA review comments

Well, as promised, here are the comments of the Bury St Edmunds jury, aka The Rambling Man... *WP:CITE should be followed in the placement of all citations, e.g. [6] should be moved to right-hand side of punctuation.

• Follow WP:EL and trim down the external links.
• As noted above, ref [14] needs a title.
• Follow WP:DASH for page ranges in the references (e.g. use the en-dash so pp131–134 instead of pp131-134).
• Do the same for date ranges, e.g. 867–870.
• "channel4.co." missing a uk in the references?
• "217-233.. " too many full stops (and don't forget the en-dash)

*"Scarle, R.D..", "Darton & Co.. " too many full stops.

• "Retrieved on" should be a full date.

*Wikilink the first "King" to List of monarchs of East Anglia.

• "He was defeated in battle by the Great Heathen Army c. 870. Edmund was captured, tortured, and he died the death of a Christian martyr.[3]" would have better prose flow if was a single sentence.

*"which apparently means " ? Not encyclopaedic. Are you trying to say "which mean that Edmund was apparently of foreign origin"? *"This is a very doubtful tradition" - can you explain why?

• "was, in fact,..." - "in fact" is redundant.
• "...only a fourteen-year-old" - "only fourteen years old" would read better for me (less hyphenation)...

*"Edmund was said to have been crowned by St Humbert[7] on December 25, 855.[2] His coronation was said to have taken place at "Burna" (probably Bures St Mary, Suffolk), which then functioned as the royal capital."

• • Move ref [7] per WP:CITE.
  • Flow the two sentences together.
  • You need to reference "His coronation was said..." claim. Who said it?
• "In the year 870, or just before," - one or the other? Are there citations for both, if so, use them.
• Second paragraph of "Date and location of death" section could use citation.
• "Dernford, Cambridge." - shire?

*Legacy section is a compilation of very short paragraphs, try to flow better to improve prose.

• "(Argent, a cross Gules (red cross on a white field))" - one too many )'s.
• Wikilinking blue is a bit over the top...
• The {{cquote| .. needs closing correctly.
• Hoxne park - should that be a Park?
• Why (1996/2004)? Two editions? Not really needed.

So, several issues, I'll happily place the article on hold for no more than seven days in order to remedy these issues. Don't hesitate to get in touch with me if you need clarification on anyhthing I've said. All the best. The Rambling Man 12:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I cannot thank you enough. Your suggestion were wonderful and I have attended to them. Please advise. Thank you again. -- SECisek 13:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Good work so far. I've just checked ref [3] and nowhere does it mention St Edmund being the patron saint of East Anglia, kings, pandemics, torture victims or wolves. I think you'd need to source of this lot. The Rambling Man 14:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course, not every edit was mine. I will take a look and correct. -- SECisek 14:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

 Done What else can I do? --SECisek 14:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, good rework, I've moved some citations again - try to place them on the right hand side of punctuation with no spaces between the ref and the punctuation. In addition, the following comments are still applicable:

• "In the year 869 or just before..." - not sure if the citation in the following sentence covers this, but what year? If the citation says the same then fine (I don't possess the text you're using as a citation) but if not then we need to clear this up.

Both years cited.

• "...more widely spread version..." - not keen on this expression, but failing to suggest alternative right now, (sorry!)...

Fixed, I hope.

• "...it came to him (Abbo) ..." - just say "...it came to Abbo..."

Easy enough.

• "This is chronologically just possible, but that is all." - can you cite this claim? I think we need to explain why "that is all". What else makes this account so challenging to believe?

Clarified

• A UK article so we should adopt Canonisation rather than the (rather chillingly hideous) Zee. Same with gr(e)(a)y wolf - we have grey ones...

I have NO problem with UK spellings, they are by far more widely used world wide. I just don't know them all.

Forgive me, I'm being trite! We usually opt for British English on articles which are British-centric, so in this case the grey wolf and the canonisation rule. While I'm 100% anti-Americanis(z)ation of English, I completely appreciate that unless exposed to it, it's unlikely that you'd have known otherwise. No problem, it's looking all good from here. The Rambling Man 21:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I know that I probably overlooked some of these earlier, for which I apologise. I'm not intentionally moving the goalposts but I think that once these are cleared up I'll happily promote my favourite Patron Saint of England to GA! The Rambling Man 19:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem, if you see anything else, let me know! -- SECisek 20:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Nothing more. I've made a couple of minor style mods but it's a GA as of now. Well done. The Rambling Man 21:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)