Talk:Arvanites

Editors who are interested in improving this article are encouraged to read this talk page discussion and the previous discussions at the archives 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

Successful good article nomination

I am glad to say that this article which was nominated for good article status has succeeded. This is how the article, as of June 17, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: prose is clear and is free of grammar errors

2. Factually accurate?: well-referenced

3. Broad in coverage?: complete

4. Neutral point of view?: after much hard work

5. Article stability? no major edit wars recently

6. Images?: all are free

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status. — Argos'Dad 02:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Edit war about "Former Yugoslav..."

I'd never have expected I'd take part in revert wars about adding or removing "Former Yugoslav..." from references to the Republic of Macedonia, but now that we have WP:MOSMAC I really thought this was sorted out. From the discussion between Nikos and Pmanderson on that talk page I took it that it was clearly understood during the negotiations that the language of the proposed guideline was not supposed to mean that every article dealing with Greece should automatically use "Former Yugoslav...", and that any such demand would never achieve consensus. If the guideline is now nevertheless interpreted in this way, then I throw up my hands in despair. In that case, the guideline is dead, dead, dead. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't be so emotional. While it would be nigh impossible to enforce either version in every article dealing with Greece, it is not unreasonable to expect that articles dealing specifically with Greece, such as this one, should be left in peace. In fact, I've decided to omit the redundant reference to the neighbouring state altogether. Albania and Turkey aren't linked in reference to Epirus and Thrace, so why should Skopje? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Then we should probably add specifically to the guideline. Unless we are explicitly representing the view of someone who uses "former Yugoslav" (by which I do not mean an editor, but the Greek government, the European Union and so on), it should be omitted, as PoV. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This omits the saving clause "country is mentioned specifically and exclusively in relationship to such an organization". Florina does not qualify. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it does. Before my last edit, Skopje (the country) was mentioned here "specifically and exclusively in relationship" to Greece, one of the "organisations, states, events and international relationships where the subject in question uses either of these names". ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:MOSMAC gives two examples. The Eurovision Song Contest also uses "former Yugoslav", and therefore

• "In other news, FYR Macedonia ranked 18th in Eurovision" is acceptable and desirable.
• "Karolina, who last year competed in Eurovision, returned to the Republic of Macedonia. " is not is desirable on the other side..

The similarity is clear. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree; the latter is not acceptable nor desirable. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for the poor copyediting; both are desirable. You might be happier at Wikinfo, which encourages the expression of points of view. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite happy here, thanks. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

More edit-warring

Oh well. Can we please develop a habit of not reverting each other's substantial edits before we've had a discussion about the merits of the case first? The edits Albanau reverted to ([1]) were hardly wrong, they were just redundant. If you read the article closely, almost everything in added in that edit was already in the article anyway, and sourced too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Minor Problem

The first reference citation associated with the first sentence in the history section of the article needs elaboration. Full citations are in order. Also, direct quotes from those sources would be helpful in providing a form of verifiability for readers. This is a suggestion that could help increase the article's chances of reaching FA status. Just a suggestion that I think needs to be taken into consideration. Deucalionite 18:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Greeks took their name after a pelasgic tribu

Yanina is the largest and most interesting town of modern Albania. Near it are the ruins of the temple of Dodona, the cradle of pagan civilization in Greece. This oracle uttered its prophecies by interpreting the rustling of oak branches; the fame of its priestesses drew votaries from all parts of Greece. In this neighbourhood also dwelt the Pelagic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks.Catholic encyclopedia,(Albania).Dodona —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.90.85.46 (talk) 08:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Dodona banned

I've had enough of this. This guy has pestered everybody with his ungrammatical, repetitive, off-topic, incoherent rants for the better part of a year. He's evidently not prepared to learn.

I propose to treat him as banned for a year. I'm now going to block his main IPs for a long while. Any ban evasion will mean resetting of the ban for another year. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure that's the right course of action? He's probably the only voice here emanating from Albania itself. Personally, I like to know what makes the other side tick. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Point taken, but I think we've all heard enough of him to know what makes him tick, don't you think? But you're right, we are suffering from a shortage of competent Albanian contributors. Good point. Hell, where is "Shqiptar nga Kosova" when you need him... ;-P Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Gëzuar, Futurë. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Even if there seems to be a shortage of Albanian contributors, you could always ask Taulant23 to provide an Albanian perspective on things. I already worked with him and he has helped improve the Albania article and even the Pelasgians article (despite the struggles I had trying to convince him that it was better to transfer the Pelasgians section of the Albania article to the modern theories section of the Pelasgians article). Nevertheless, he seems cooperative enough to serve as a proper alternative to Dodona. He is currently on good terms with me regardless of the recent tussles we had. Moreover, he is reasonable enough to want to discuss things over sources even if he has an Albanian bias. Of course, this is just me talking. I would recommend speaking with him directly if you ever need an Albanian contributor here. As for Dodona, I have to agree with Future Perfect and recommend that he be banned for a period of time. It may seem harsh, but this is necessary since Dodona has been consistently disruptive and has been unable to provide coherent arguments supplied with decent evidence to support his claims. The kid gloves must come off. Deucalionite 22:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

In case that you unblock me I will show improvement ,i will try not to make any claim without showing references first(I often did not although), and my sign that I will change is my new username. My motivation have been clear to anyone, I feel sorry that are not many Albanian users and academics in the field in wikipedia , myself I am engaged in totally different profession but for me the history of our nation is important. What I fight for is the truth and I hate deformities. I feel that I do not deserve this so long ban, is just some thoughts that I wrote ….Dodona —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dodona eprioti (talk • contribs) 15:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Well you're obviously not so "banned" after all if you're still able to post here. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

You should not put so much “barbed wire” to Albanians if you want collaborative, the references are there depends what you pick up, banned for not any apparent reasons is not the way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.246.62 (talk) 08:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

"Self-deprecation" and references

I'll revert this back, it is an important part of state-of-the-art sociological analysis of Arvanite communities. And yes, I read those references. (Couldn't get hold of Tsitsipis 1981 itself, to tell you the truth, but several later ones of his articles where he quotes and expands on his own previous analyses, as well as the Botsi study, Trudgill/Tzaveras and others.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

For those not familiar with the term, here's an excerpt (my rough translation) from Botsi (2003:71f.), summarising the meaning of that term in the context of Tsitsipis' sociological approach. The tone of Botsi's text is slightly stronger than Tsitsipis' himself, if I remember correctly, but the essence is correctly rendered. Both Botsi and Tsitsipis are native Arvanites and have done extensive fieldwork in Arvanite communities; Tsitsipis is the leading expert on the topic in Greece.

For the approach presented here, the terms "subordination" and "self-deprecation", derived from conflict theory, are fundamental, as is Gramsci's conception of "cultural hegemony". These concepts are intended to explain the conformity of the speakers with the dominant attitudes of official society regarding their minority language. The terms, which were first introduced into sociolinguistics by Hamp (1961), were further developed by Tsitsipis (1981) on the basis of empirical examples and were interpreted as two subsequent phases of a single historical process. By "subordination" is meant the situation where a social subject succumbs to the decisions and intentions of another. In the present case, the subordinated social subject is the minority language, which cannot escape coercion and diffamation by the dominant society. There are two possible modes of reaction: resistance and acceptance. The further reaction is captured by the concept of "self-deprecation". By this is meant the self-censorship and self-devaluation by the speakers of the minority language, who come to internalise the negative connotations ascribed to their group. This happens through the appropriation of wide-spread ethnic stereotypes ("folk fallacies"), derived from the hegemonial discourse, by the subjects themselves.

The complete ideological shift of the Arvanitika speakers, termed "interruption" by Tsitsipis, can be dated to the 1950s and 1960s. [...] Intolerant language policies of the Greek state on the one hand and the internalisation of negative attitudes by the speech community ("self-deprecation") on the other have led to a complete rejection of Arvanitika by its own speakers.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:18, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Botsaris

Markos Botsaris was no Arvanite, was he? He was a Souliot.--NetProfit 20:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, they were Albanophone, apparently. And descendants of Botsaris were involved in some of the early Arvanite organisations; they are quoted as leading figures among contemporary Arvanites (authors of an "Arvanite manifesto") by Gkikas (cited in the article). Of course, that was all at a time when Arvanites and Albanians proper were not yet distinguished in Greece as they are now, and that manifesto was directed at all Albanians inside and outside Greece. By the time the southern Greek Arvanites developed the separate identity they have now, Souliots no longer existed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

William Eton in his book "A Survey of the Turkish Empire" (1798) states that the Souliots were Greek-speaking. He includes correspondence between Ali Pasha (an Albanian) and the Suliot chiftains Giavellas and Botsaris ("Bogias" in the book); the language Ali Pasha used in order to communicate with them was Greek (William Eton, "A Survey of the Turkish Empire"; pages 373-383).

S.T. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.203.151.130 (talk) 19:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting in a way, but then, written language tells us little about what they spoke in everyday life. Albanian wasn't a written language, they couldn't have used it for political correspondence even if they wanted to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

When you read in Eton's book that "Captain Bogia and Captain Giavella, two of the most considerable of the chiefs of the Greek inhabitants of the mountain of Sulli", what is the bit that is missing in your understanding of the quote?

S.T.

Marko Botsari in one occassion was repressentative of Ali Pasha for unification with north Bushatlli of Shkodra, I mean you people are so much wrong ,Arvanites were Greek because they belonged to Greece long before the independence of Albania . You wrongly want to do two things ..to separate arvanites from the Greeks or Helens and to separate Aravanites from Albanians Read "Histori kurre e tregueme" e Zef Pellumbi Albanian catholic Priest and decedent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.18.84 (talk) 08:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The Arvanites ,in to day Greece, they have their own Arvanitic consciousness and consider Albanians as the same “blood”, they are the real Helens. “Zito Arvanitia “

self-deprecation

"By this is meant the self-censorship * and self-devaluation* by the speakers of the minority language, who come to internalise the negative connotations ascribed to their group"

sorry, but this is a POV general rule apllied to Greece rather than a sourced example within Greece, and the concrete examples in tstisipis are of lower visibility and inter-familial culture. Again, not only is it POV to assert that this constitues self-attack, but also to come back to , the popular understanding that most people would have of self-deprecation when they see it on a page such as this would be self-insult rather than self-denial, regardless of the academic use.

Arvanitas2007 11:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

This is what the academic literature says, which is what we are supposed to report. Have you read Tsitsipis, have you something different to report from its contents? Please make yourself familiar with WP:V. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

there are several historical figures within many areas of greek life who have been publicly both arvanite and very identified with greece, which leads to me think this is a potentially misleading formulation. I will re-search for the only quoted web source ; overall this is a reasonable object I think.

Arvanitas2007 11:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, looking only at the web sources will probably not equip you with the knowledge necessary to criticise the summaries of the literature as we now have them. This has been collected from numerous printed sources, actual research literature. As I said, that sentence about self-deprecation is a summary of the conclusions Tsitsipis and others arrived at after very substantial field work among actual Arvanite communities. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Note to user FPS. Out of curiosity, does Tsitsipis give a Greek word for self-deprececation? Also, if you maintain that 'acedemic literature' says it, could you give further examples other than just Tsitsipis? Otherwise it may be useful to re-edit your text.Politis 11:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Can't say about a Greek term. He has published in Greek, I think, so probably there is one somewhere. As for other literature, as I already quoted, Botsi cites him as the seminal study in the field, and I could swear Trudgill in his recent works quoted him approvingly too, but I haven't got them here right now. I haven't read Bintliff, and I haven't got Clogg available right now for checking, although my guess it they'd quote it too. I can definitely state that Trudgill/Tzaveras made quite similar points in their earlier study, but that was of course before Tsitsipis and I don't remember the exact terms they used. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

there is a still remains a visible problem with having this as the only formulation in the article though, which is that a succession of widely known greeks have also been visibly arvanite and are part of the country's legends. If you are going to retain what I think is that very POV formulation, then I can't why see such a qualification cannot also be added.

Arvanitas2007 11:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you have summaries of other academic literature of comparable quality and standing to contribute, you're welcome. I'm not sure what "legends" you mean, though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no real problem with the term, I just find the notion of self-deprecation within Greek culture quite interesting and it remains unexplored territory. Admitedly, the term is loaded. It means to sustain personal low-self esteem; it can also refer to critical humour towards one's culture and I have never heard of Arvanitika jokes. On the other hand, the term Arvanitia in Greek can have heroic conotations, 'xesikothike oloi i Arvanitia'. An analogous term I encountered recently is 'self-hating Greek'. I believe it originates from Greek academia in the US.Politis 12:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

"I have never heard of Arvanitika jokes. On the other hand, the term Arvanitia in Greek can have heroic conotations, 'xesikothike oloi i Arvanitia'"

Quite.

" I'm not sure what "legends" you mean"

really the county's popular history and self-identity.

Arvanitas2007 12:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The Arvanites ,in to day Greece, have their own Arvanitic consciousness and consider Albanians as the same “blood”, they are the real Helens. “Zito Arvanitia