Talk:SS Cap Arcona

Dear anonymous contributor who repeats to change the external links:

Please don't change the URLs to [[http://www.something.com]], as those will display as [[1]] - which is very ugly. Either leave them without any brackets like they are now, or change them like this with a description on what to find at the link: [http://www.something.com Website showing something]. See also our Manual of style.

Every time you change it to the ugly looking style it will be reverted to the previous one anyway, so there is no point to continue to do that. Thank you. andy 13:31, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Removal of the Reason for loading the Concentration Camp Prisoners Aboard the Ships

Someone has also removed the text stating why the prisoners were actually onboard the ships in the first place. They weren't going on a pleasure cruise - the ships were to be taken out into the middle of the Bay of Lübeck and then scuttled with the prisoners locked below decks so as to drown them. This was stated at the war crimes trial of the men responsible and the officer in charge (Max Pauly, ex-Commandant of Neuengamme) along with several others, was hanged. 82.111.65.142 13:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

"the ships were to be taken out into the middle of the Bay of Lübeck and then scuttled with the prisoners locked below decks so as to drown them."

This claim is unsubstanciated and illogical. Why should they walk the prisoners from Neuengamme to Luebeck, put them on ships and wait for them to be sunk by the British? They killed 55,000+ in Neuengamme, so why wouldn't they go on and kill 7,000 more? The claim that the ships were to be scuttled is nothing but a lame excuse of the RAF (sinking ships with prisoners was more than a little embarrassment ...) 141.13.8.14 11:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

the claim is also impossible as the middle of the bay is not deep enough to sink a ship as big as the Cap Arcona. It would partially be left standing on the bottom sticking out of the water. See here: http://data.ecology.su.se/baltic96/depth.htm

surre

Given that the RAF strafed survivors of the sinking to ensure that they did not reach shore alive, and the words of Allan Wyse make clear that this was ordered and that those being strafed were known to be noncombatants, this claim rings more than a bit hollow. --7Kim 14:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't need to write 'with the imprisoned prisoners below', that is the one job of a prisoner, and by god they will be captive.

However illogical the arugment of them drowning prisoners of wars, if it was stated in the Nuremburg Trials, it should be regarded as fact as many other articles use what went on during the trial as fact, unless someone wishes to contend that part of the Nuremburg was false. Either way, it's going to need a citation.

A crucial sentence in need of clarification

I have trouble with the first paragraph of the Sinking section. <<On April 26, 1945, she was loaded with prisoners from the Neuengamme concentration camp near Hamburg and, together with two smaller ships, Thielbek and Athen, was brought into the Bay of Lübeck.>> So far, so good. But the next sentence is rather unclear, and needs clarification: <<During these days, informed by British Intelligence, Count Folke Bernadotte, vice-president of the Red Cross, gained much goodwill leading a rescue operation transporting west European deportees to hospitals in Sweden, of whom some were French-speakers transported aboard the Cap Arcona.>> What precisely is being meant? Yes, Bernadotte has goodwill via the White Buses operation, ok. Is the point & crux of the matter that "British intelligence" (hopefully not an oxymoron at the time) had concrete knowledge about who was on board the three ships (and nevertheless went on to the sinking & killing of 7,000 people)?

From the French Web site : http://www.michel-hollard.com/ "Michel Hollard : En février 1944, il est arrêté par la Gestapo à Paris en compagnie de deux de ses subordonnés. Torturé, emprisonné à Fresnes et condamné à mort, il est déporté au camp de concentration de Neuengamme. Il est sauvé miraculeusement du naufrage du Cap Arcona, en baie de Lubeck, que l'ennemi sabordait intentionnellement. Ce sauvetage est dû au Prince Bernadotte qui, informé par l'Intelligence Britannique, envoya une vedette sur place et obtint le salut de quelques prisonniers de langue française." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Hollard

Hoisting of the White Ensign

Quoting from the Sinking-paragraph: "After the first wave had attacked the ships, the Cap Arcona hoisted the white ensign without any effect." This is not confirmed and rather unlikely, especially concerning the Cap Arcona. Whether the Athen hoisted a white flag is at least questionable but also not confirmed. Where does this information come from? holsteiner 10:22, 29 January 2007

Infobox header

Sorry, I may be asking a question that is obvious to people with specialised knowledge, but why is the word 'Career' the title of the infobox? If it's intentional and appropriate, could it be wikilinked to the nautical definition so the uninitiated can understand why it's used? Anchoress 01:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Is This English?

This article is incredibly hard to read. Having read it twice, I'm still hazy. It is not made clear that this was a boat as part of an operation by Count Bernadotte rescuing concentration camp victims (is that correct? I'm not sure I even understand the article correctly). What does Hitler's suicide have to do with anything -- the sentence that mentions it doesn't make any sense? Was any justification at all given for the British action? The quote about "That's war" notwithstanding, surely some purpose was given?

This article needs some serious love, guys. I would try to help, but I don't know anything about the subject. 67.175.166.240 03:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. This page is awful and should not have been featured on the Wiki main page. ScubaSteve2k1 06:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)ScubaSteve2k1

This article does need serious cleanup. Look at this sentence from the article: "Photos of the burning ships; listed as Deutschland, and Thielbek, Cap Arcona, swimming survivors were taken on a reconnaissance mission over Bay of Lübeck by F-6 aircraft of the USAAF's 161st Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron around 5:00 PM, shortly after the attack." Can someone put the cleanup infobox on this article? Rstandefer 13:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just read this page through 3 times and I'm only JUST starting to understand what it's all about! I'm going to have a go at re-writing it, but I don't know how good it will be, I just feel some of it needs to be re-worded a bit! Let me know how I get on! LookingYourBest 21:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I've had a go at re-writing the first couple of paragraphs of 'sinking', I think it makes SLIGHTLY more sense now! Let me know what you think! LookingYourBest 08:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Great job. i made a couple of small changes for clarity, but the article is 100% better in my opinion. Rstandefer 14:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOR and poor referencing

This section:

The RAF has sealed the records about these attacks until 2045.[8] No convincing explanation of why the attacks were carried out in the first place has ever been given - the war in Europe was for all intents and purposes already over, and the sinking of these unarmed ships would have served no tangible purpose even if they had been empty.

Is perfectly fine in general (Something should be found to mention there was no obvious reason, but it should be backed up) but is poorly worded, reading like OR and the only ref is a commercial link. Anyone wanna fight for its continued existance or can we all agree to delete it until someone wants to acctually 'adopt' it and properly write it up? (or someone can do that tag that labels it as being possibly OR and poorly referenced, can't remember the blasted shortcuts) Narson 16:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

"I asked for more information but the RAF declined to give it to me on the grounds the investigation is still open - 55 years later," Bond said.

According to at least one of the references (http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/history/00-03-07/f02-uk.html) the RAF understood that "the ships carried Nazi leaders and troops trying to flee crumbling Germany to make a last stand in Norway, then still in German hands." This conflicts with the article which speculates that the reason why the records have been sealed is "the war was effectively over and the destruction of these non-military targets was of no discernible strategic value."

Also, I think the records have been sealed under a British Government rule, not an RAF one. However, to be sure of this I would need to do some digging. Greenshed 20:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

2045... the war was effectively over

"The RAF has sealed the records about these attacks until 2045.^[8] This may be due to the fact that, by this time, the war was effectively over and the destruction of these non-military targets was of no discernible strategic value." I think this needs to be changed. At first I thought this was a typo and that the records were actually sealed until 1945, when the war was effectively over. Then I realized that the records are - in fact - sealed until 2045. "by this time..." is referring to the time of the attacks, not the time of the unsealing.
How about: "The RAF has sealed the records about these attacks for 100 years, until 2045.^[8] This may be due to the fact that, by the time of the attacks, the war was effectively over..." Trigam41 18:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Or... I suppose you could delete the line altogether... sure.
I do think we should expand MoD to Ministry of Defense. We don't have ministries in America, and it might be nice to expand the abbreviation. Trigam41 21:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Records Sealed

I have contacted the MoD regarding the supposed "sealed files" and neither the MoD nor the National Archive can find any sealed records. Those files which do exist have been placed in the National Archive and are free to view.

Of particular interest is the War Office investigation by No 2 War Crimes Investigation Team, led by a Major Till, into events at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. Prisoners from this camp were placed on the Cap Arcona by their German guards, and as a consequence Major Till and his team also examined the circumstances surrounding the sinking of this vessel. This report is held by The National Archive under the reference WO 309/1952.

Also on deposit in the National Archive are the Operational Record Books of 2 TAF, 83 Group and the squadrons involved. Details of the operation and the reasons for conducting it are in the files held in the National Archive.

Unless anyone can find conclusive evidence of "sealed files" then I will delete the references to them, since they are unsubstanciated rumours as far as I can tell.

--J.StuartClarke 20:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"I asked for more information but the RAF declined to give it to me on the grounds the investigation is still open - 55 years later," Bond said. China Daily, 2000-03-07 .(86.64.182.240 14:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC))

That article was written in March 2000. I requested the files under the FIOA, which only came into force in Janurary 2005, and there are none that aren't in the public domain. --J.StuartClarke 18:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The present RAF, not this old report : See The 100-Year Secret: Britain's Hidden World War II Massacre. The Lyons Press, October 2004. Page 170, 171.(86.64.182.240 08:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)).

That book was published on 1st September 2004. If the FOIA only came into force on the 1st Janurary 2005 then I'm not quite sure how the writer came to those conclusions. The fact that he has written a book does not make him right. --J.StuartClarke 02:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This report (Major Till) has been accessible by the authors in 2003; the book speak about it several pages. The most interesting remains the RAF's Archives, legally accessible at most in 2045.(86.64.182.240 09:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC))

Which report? The report by the War Crimes unit is in the National Archive, as are the operational logs of the Air Group involved. --J.StuartClarke 14:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The most interesting remains the RAF's Archives, legally accessible at most in 2045 : the other documents that are not in the Till's report.

British Army Major Till, who was the post war investigator into the sinking of the ships in Lubbeck Bay on 3 May 1945 including the Cap Arcona, asked the RAF in writing several times for their documents and complained that he was not given them. The British judge at the trial of Max Pauly in Hamburg also stopped survivor Philippe Jackson from giving any testimony on the event restricting him to his accounts of Pauly's actions at Neuengamme. I requested these RAF files on the sinking of the Cap Arcona from the RAF in 2000 and received a response in writing saying the event was still under investigation and would not be released at that time. I did have full access to Major Till's investigation since he was a lawyer working for the war crimes investigation unit and not the RAF.

The RAF has also never released any gun camera footage of the attacks even though all the pilots I interviewed who flew the attacking planes claim their planes were equiped with these cameras and they functioned correctly.

Lawrence Bond

This is what the MoD sent me, when I requested it under the FOIA:

"Dear Mr XXXXXXXXXXX

While we are aware of that rumours persist of the existence of closed file or files relating to events on the 3 May 1944, neither the Ministry of Defence nor the National Archive can find any files on the subject of the sinking of the Cap Arcona, the Thielbeack and the Deutschland by aircraft from 83 Group on 3 May 1945 other than those which are already in the public domain. The files on the matter have been deposited in the National Archive at Kew in London and are listed in the catalogue of the National Archive which is available on the internet. If you are unable to visit the National Archive yourself I suggest that you contact the Search Department who, for a fee, will undertake research for you and send you photocopies of the relevant documentation.

The information contained in The National Archive is on open access to members of the public. Of particular interest is the War Office investigation by No 2 War Crimes Investigation Team, led by a Major Till, into events at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. Prisoners from this camp were placed on the Cap Arcona by their German guards, and as a consequence Major Till and his team also examined the circumstances surrounding the sinking of this vessel. This report is held by The National Archive under the reference WO 309/1952. Also on deposit in the National Archive are the Operational Record Books of 2 TAF, 83 Group and the squadrons involved. Details of the operation and the reasons for conducting it are in the files held in the National Archive and, under Section 21 of the Freedom of Information Act, I would ask you to consult these documents.

Yours sincerely

XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX Air Historical Branch(RAF)

If the information enclosed does not address your requirements or you wish to complain about any aspect of the handling of this request, then you should contact the member of the Air Historical Branch who has sent the reply in the first instance. Should you remain dissatisfied, then you may apply for an MOD internal review by contacting the Director of Information Exploitation, 6th Floor, MOD Main Building, Whitehall, London SW1A 2HB. If you are still unhappy following an internal review you may take your complaint to the Information Commissioner under the Provisions of Section 50 of the Freedom of Information Act. Please note that the Information Commissioner will not investigate your case until the MOD internal review process has been completed."

Either the MoD is lying or they really don't have anything. --J.StuartClarke 13:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Appointment and answer in 2045.(Page 170, 171).(86.64.182.240 13:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

It doesn't exist. I fail to see what more proof you need. --J.StuartClarke 14:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

These British laws do exist.

Yes, they do. However, under the FOIA there has to be both an acknolegment that the file exists and a reason for it being withheld. Neither were given for the above request, so the file cannot exist. --J.StuartClarke 13:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

These laws (2045) are the laws of the page 171 ("The 100-Year Secret: Britain's Hidden World War II Massacre". The Lyons Press, October 2004).

62 years of investigation : "I requested these RAF files on the sinking of the Cap Arcona from the RAF in 2000 and received a response in writing saying THE EVENT WAS STILL UNDER INVESTIGATION and would not be released at that time." : grotesque !

The FOIA only came into force in January 2005. --J.StuartClarke 15:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I've removed a couple of lines of conjecture from the article and added a citation tag for one of the sentences that claim to have documents proving the British Government knew it was at fault. Can't go throwing accusations like that around without backup! Lol! LookingYourBest 11:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

"Hell Ship"?

This is a untrue and loaded term, it needs to be replaced.