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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 69.202.60.86 (talk) at 14:59, 25 December 2007 (→Introduction to evolution: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Introduction to evolution

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I'm nominating this article for featured article because it has been through extensive peer review, and modification in the course of obtaining GA status. We believe it is now ready for careful consideration of FA status. Filll (talk) 22:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Question How would you alter them to make them consistent?--Filll (talk) 05:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Re-formated titles of text to follow APA style in future reading section. Other than that, format seems to be consistent and accurate. All ISBN numbers were accurate as well as authors, dates and publishers. Ex. River of of eden. If this is incorrect please provide guidance. Thank you. --Random Replicator (talk) 05:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Question: This is the APA format for a single author text. [Smith, John Maynard. Evolutionary Genetics. Second Edition. New York: Oxford University Press, 1998. ISBN-10: 0198502311. A comprehensive introduction to the molecular and population aspects of evolutionary genetics.] Is this adequate? Should we include descriptors along with the citation as is done here?
Comment: I've spent the day applying the templates ... if it is wrong ... well at least it is consistently wrong .. thank you for your input. --Random Replicator (talk) 20:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) Let's see... For basics, the isbn format breaks ISBN linking, external links should NEVER be formatted without text (there's a reason all usual Wikipedia web cites formats put the title there, people!), and if you're going to give full names in references, you might as well do the same in "further reading". Circeus (talk) 01:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Templates applied - format problems should now be resolved --- thanks for sharing information on template for standardizing; made the task so much easier. --71.77.211.77 (talk) 18:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)--Random Replicator (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Agreed and noted. The bulleted list, intended to simplify have been worked into text in response to your concerns. The number have been dramatically reduced; the few remaining; I think you will agree are necessary. Thank you for your suggestion. Give me a day and citations will be added to the Hardy-Weinberg. As currently revised; it is essentially common knowledge; but can and will be reinforced with citations. I am assuming my additions here are appropriate; if not please provide me with direction so that I do not violate protocol. --Random Replicator (talk) 04:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Cited Hardy-Weinberg Section. Essentially a section heavy with vocabulary terms which were referenced to the widely read text by Neil Campbell. The section reads better; although I hated to drop my hypothetical examples; which really needed a bulleted list to be retained. --Random Replicator (talk) 05:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)<[reply]
  • Oppose The article has many problems and is not ready for FA:
  • Referencing is not FA standard. I see many unreferenced paragraphs:
    • No references in paragraphs 2, 4 and 5 of *"Darwin's idea: evolution by natural selection" section.
    • No references in paragraph 2 of "Vestigial structures" section.
    • No references in paragraph 2 of "Examples" section.
    • No references in paragraphs 1 and 2 of "Different perspectives on the mechanism of evolution" section.
    • No references in paragraph 1 of "Rate of change" section.
    • No references in paragraph 1 of "Unit of change" section.
  • References 4, 5, 18, 19, 20, 24, 25, 26, 38 and 39 have formatting problems. Always put references after a comma or full stop with no space in between.
  • The article is POV. Even if it's an introduction, it should still mention a little about the creationism debate.
  • I see a few short paragraphs with only one or two sentences. The article is not well-written and needs a copy-edit, but I cannot help because my English is not very good.
  • Improve the article and try GA first. --Kaypoh (talk) 06:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'm not sure if I agree with this advise as per your talk page "Now add a lot of references. FA standard referencing = almost one reference per sentence, all paragraphs must have references." The article has been peered reviewed to the point of nausea and has already reached GA status. I believe the format issues for consistency are being cleaned up. This line ... The article is POV. Even if it's an introduction, it should still mention a little about the creationism debate. I'm thinking this comment - will elicit a response from others on this page; which should make for some interesting reading. --Random Replicator (talk) 14:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The article is an Intro to Evolution and does not need to discuss alternate origin theories / suppositions. To suggest it is POV becaue it doesn't discuss creationism is like complaining that an article on the 'Baptist' church is POV because it doesn't mention a little about the 'Roman Catholic' church. The article does a good job as an 'overview' of an 'intro to evolution'. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have to admit, I find the criticism that an introductory article on evolution does not discuss creationism a bit strange. First, it is an introduction, so it cannot go into detail about everything. Second, it is a science article, not about religion or politics. Third, there are links to creationist discussions in the summary, and some discussion of creationist points (for example Objections to evolution and misconceptions about evolution). Since this editor did not realize that the article was already a GA, it is clear that this editor has not read the article very carefully and realized that his complaint about creationism has already been addressed, and has not realized that the article is already a GA. Also, although I am a big fan of heavy use of citations and references, for an introductory article, this is probably inappropriate. For an introductory article, the article should be as accessible as possible, and having a huge number of citations and footnotes really does not make an article accessible, particularly for beginners. Remember, we are not aiming this at a professional audience, or an adult audience, but at a beginning high school level. --Filll (talk) 17:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Having read the article, it does seem to me to be comprehensive as an 'Introduction to Evolution' as the title states and is well referenced. It seem to follow Wikipedia:Scientific citation guidelines. Some small stylistic things: should the images alternate (right side, left side, right side)? And, the bullet points at 'Barriers that prevent fertilization' and 'Barriers acting after fertilization' should be changed to straight paragraph style. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 14:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I haven't finished reading the article yet, but I have a few stylistic comments already
    • Is it necessary to have so many pictures in the introduction? I understand that pictures are appreciated by readers, but I don't think anyone will appreciate a glut of pictures so early on. The evolution page keeps it simple with just the template at the top, and my personal opinion is do the same thing here.
    • Regarding the template at the top, I notice it's different to the one on the evolution page - is that wise, considering changes to one aren't guaranteed to be applied to the other in the future.
    • This is just my opinion and not an objection, but I think all of the examples (and there are lots) need to be worked into the article a little better. For instance, in many cases a sentence starts with or includes "For example ..." (20 times by my count). Maybe it could be changed up a bit, alternatives like "that can be seen in the case of 'blah'" or something. It just feels awkward reading the same thing over and over. I think the lists at the end of the article should be turned into prose too.
    • For the same reasons given by Wassupwestcoast, I don't see why creationism needs to be mentioned in this article. Ben 16:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The heavy use of pictures in the article was planned. This article is meant for a very different audience than evolution. Evolution aims at an advanced undergraduate level (14 or 15 years of schooling). Introduction to evolution aims at someone who is a freshman or sophmore in high school (10 or 11 years of schooling). Look at a book for elementary school students, a book for junior high school students and a book for high school students and a book for college students. Which books have the most pictures? Obviously, the books meant for younger and less educated readers have more pictures and they are more prominent. So at least in my opinion, you are not understanding what an introduction actually is and is meant to be in this situation.--Filll (talk) 17:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, I wasn't questioning the number of pictures in the article, in fact I have no problem with that. I was concerned with so many pictures in the introduction to the article. Sorry for the confusion. Ben 17:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to agree, that the excessive use of the term example does not make for good prose. However, there is the advantage of consistency that organizes the data in a way that one unfamiliar with the concept may better understand. In my experience with high school text books; transitional words can not be subtle or the young reader will become confused. If your opposition to the consistency is not passionate; then I would rather leave the For example ... approach as it stands. However, it would be simple enough to convert to "that can be seen in the case of 'blah'" if need be. Thank you for your constructive criticism. --Random Replicator (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Removed "The Tree" that has been added and removed several times in regards to the concern over clutter. It has been very difficult to balance the pictures; again because of my experience with textbooks, with the more "stark" approach of Wikipedia. Hope the removal served to improve the general appearance. --Random Replicator (talk) 19:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Edit out many of the "For Examples" as suggested--Random Replicator (talk) 05:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We cannot know for sure what Brian Alters meant, but his statement is pretty accurate from all we can determine. Look at level of support for evolution, for example.--Filll (talk) 16:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You should stick in a link to that. DrKiernan (talk) 16:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It used to be there, but I guess it was removed in all the revisions.--Filll (talk) 16:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The decision was made to minimize the number of references in the article to make it more accessible. We can of course put a huge number of references in the article, just as are found in evolution or intelligent design. However, this was viewed as inappropriate for an introductory article.--Filll (talk) 16:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments "Darwin incorrectly deduced that heritable traits were a product of the environment" I'm not familiar with that: I think that is counter-intuitive for someone ignorant, and could do with a citation. "The theory of evolution is the foundation of nearly all research conducted in biology" seems rather over-blown. "This has been well documented in the orchid family." example please, or cite a review. DrKiernan (talk) 16:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:Deleted the orchid comment... a million options I should have cited ... but frankly it seemed to be just hanging there with no real direction. Thank you.--Random Replicator (talk) 19:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your specific concerns --- I know Darwin had no explanation for the source of variations; I will dig farther to see how that morphed into his agreement on LaMarckism. Your specific concerns are appreciated and valued. General statements that it "needs more citations" contribute little when clearly the Introduction to Evolution Article has tons of citations (60 lines of referenced information). Frankly I would not cite the line: The earth orbits the sun. Some information in an encyclopedia is held to standard by "peer review" --- citing every line sounds like an over reaction to criticisms raised by "World Book" readers. It would make this entry cumbersome to read at best. --Random Replicator (talk) 03:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response to concern:"It is even more interesting to note that, although Darwin tried to refute the Lamarckian mechanism of inheritance, he later admitted that the heritable effects of use and disuse might be important in evolution. In the Origin of Species he wrote that the vestigial eyes of moles and of cave-dwelling animals are probably due to gradual reduction from disuse, but aided perhaps by natural selection."[1] I will add the required citation thank you. --Random Replicator (talk) 23:29, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response "The theory of evolution serves as the foundation for much of the research conducted in biology, including molecular biology, paleontology, and taxonomy." Toned it down just a tad --- this is not over-blown; hopefully it still emphasizes the importance of evolutionary theory in biology.--Random Replicator (talk) 05:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What copyediting do you propose? Also, as stated above, the reason that there are so few references is that this is an introductory article. Compared to Introduction to general relativity, which is an FA, we actually have a higher density of references.--Filll (talk) 02:18, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Same question --- "extensive copyediting" --- seriously? This entry has been in the making for over a year. It has been copy-edited by a group of very talented individuals with extensive knowledge in English grammar. I've had this thing analyzed by college professors. We deliberated over every word in it. If there are grammar /sentence structure errors then they are from recent edits. As to content. There is no way that information that is obviously incorrect would last 2 secs. on that subject. It is monitored constantly by a large number of informed, passionate people, who constantly need to address the misconceptions on Evolution. Mis-information is challenged before the ink dries. A general --- knee-jerk --- oppose that lacks specificity is somewhat perplexing. Is it the topic itself that is the source of such vague criticism?--Random Replicator (talk) 03:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • I'm not too fond of the "Summary" section. As it's written, it reads like one of those dreaded "In conclusion" paragraphs to a high school essay. First person plural should really never be used in encyclopedic prose (I saw this elsewhere in the article, too). "Evolution is one of the most successful scientific theories ever produced..." <-- Hagiographic sentence that serves really no purpose.
    • Like first person plural, second person should really be avoided in an encyclopedia article.
    • Please fix your inline referencing format per MOS. The "[#]"s should go immediately after punctuation with no space (though there should be space after the ref). I saw various creative styles employed, including one where the ref was sandwiched between two periods.
    • "when the environment changes, most species fail to adapt" I don't think "most" is the best word here.
    • When citing books, please give the page number. 69.202.60.86 (talk) 21:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I get the credit for the in front / in back of the periods issue. I applied templates to all the citations; a rather extensive process and no doubt moved the original placements. A quick and painless fix --- as compared to actually verifying and applying template. Thank you. I will also address this problem "Hagiographic" as soon as I get a chance to look up the word and determine its meaning! Again, thank you for your detailed concerns which will lead to improvement.--Random Replicator (talk) 02:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I reviewed the Evolution entry and noticed that none of the textbooks include page numbers. It is featured. Was that an oversight on there part? Also; extinction is the norm when environmental changes occur; however, would "many" be in the direction that would elevate this concern?--Random Replicator (talk) 02:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if it was an oversight or not, but I thought it was just common practice (not just on Wiki, but in academia) that when citing specific facts/quotations from a book, you give the page number where it's from. See the second paragraph of Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Say_where_you_got_it. "Many" probably wouldn't elevate my concern, but it might alleviate it. :) I also noticed that ref number 4 is missing the title of the work. Overall though, my biggest concern is the Summary section, and the use of first/second person in the article. 69.202.60.86 (talk) 14:59, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose; I had to fix a major factual error (Darwin rejected Lamarckism; this was part of his major leap in understanding, and yet the article incorrectly asserted that he embraced it, then sourced it to a source which specifically says he rejected it) and I'm sure there are others in there. Moreover, I went through and removed half a dozen "in fact" and "in reality"s, and the article's overall prose is just not up to snuff. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is even more interesting to note that, although Darwin tried to refute the Lamarckian mechanism of inheritance, he later admitted that the heritable effects of use and disuse might be important in evolution. In the Origin of Species he wrote that the vestigial eyes of moles and of cave-dwelling animals are "probably due to gradual reduction from disuse, but aided perhaps by natural selection."This is the source --- are we reading the same thing?--Random Replicator (talk) 05:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually there were 3 In facts and 1 In reality which = 4. Where 1/2 dozen = 6. But who is counting. If that was your concern ... then you yourself fixed them --- so why is that a problem to list here? I'm not sure I understand this process. You identified a problem ... fixed it ... then declare it a problem after the fact. "I'm sure there are others in there"... I not sure how to respond to that as a concern?--Random Replicator (talk) 06:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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