Talk:Arcology

	Architecture portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Urban studies and planning, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Urban studies and planning on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Urban studies and planningWikipedia:WikiProject Urban studies and planningTemplate:WikiProject Urban studies and planningUrban studies and planning articles
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Architecture Start‑class Mid‑importance

	Architecture portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Architecture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Architecture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ArchitectureWikipedia:WikiProject ArchitectureTemplate:WikiProject ArchitectureArchitecture articles
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:Architecture AID

Old discussion

I first heard of arcologies when I read Oath of Fealty. Many years later, when it was another horrible snowy Boston winter and I didn't have the time or money to go to the Caribbean, I thought, gee, somebody should build a big structure with a big indoor lake, a lot of south-facing glass, and hotels and restaurants and shops along the north wall.

Recently I saw a TV show about something called the Mall of America outside Minneapolis, an enormous shopping mall with 5000 retail stores, a bowling alley, a grove of trees, an amusement park with a roller coaster and other rides, and a university. Except for a little heating at the entrances, the whole thing is heated by body heat of the crowds and sunlight coming in the ceiling glass. Even in the ridiculously cold Minnesota winters, the only active temperature control they need is for cooling.

It occurred to me that these guys have solved 90 percent of the technical problems of building an arcology. One thing I wasn't able to figure out from the TV show was why they don't have residential space in the building. That would be the only thing preventing it from being a real arcology.

- Will Ware

Ask at Mall of America --Error 01:54, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am from Minnesota, and have visited the Mall of America (MoA)from time to time. I like the 3 levels of rings around the amusement park, Knott's Camp Snoopy. Recently an Ikia furniture superstore has opened near the mall, giving mall shoppers a chance to visit another large arco-like complex. I do not know about the building techniques that went into the Ikia store, but a tentative plan has existed for some years to develop the area with large facilities such as MoA or the Ikia store, and to connect this area to the developing light rail (LRT) transport. Iflipti 05:22, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Would this count as an Arcology?

http://www.victorycities.com/

-Yes. It seems to use similar principles. Posting it on the topic page. -Iflipti 06:44, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

-It seems to me the Mall to Arcology comparison is quite overblown. The principle of an Arcology is to support human life on an ecological scale. While the heating system is admirable, the rest of the goal of the mall is not in line with arcological principles. The goal of maximizing the inflow and outflow of material and people, thereby accumulating money for the Mall's owners, is against the sustainable concept in Soleri's original idea. The point of a true arcology is to minimize the impact of urbanization on the earth. The profit maximization and associated large ecological footprint of a mall does not correspond with these values.

-I agree somewhat with anonymous's point regarding the un-ecological nature of the business of the mall, but I'll counter with a criticism of Soleri to make a point. Soleri's vision of Arcosanti stands at a fraction of one percent completed after 30-some years. A project like an arco is going to go nowhere without a massive investment from an interested party, and that means businesses, who will of course want a return on their investment. Anonymous's complaint goes towards the wasteful nature of the business/consumer model, because consumer activity creates a lot of garbage. I don't see a problem with maximizing the inflow of people, because ideally you want people to use the space. For arcological principles to be increasingly applied within the business model, the ecological incentives must also be a cost-cutting incentives, including but not limited to solar & wind power, natural airflow systems, green corridors for passive cooling & natural beauty, or internal recycling centers. So granted, it's a weak comparision as the MoA is at best, a kind of proto-arcology without a progressive ecological policy. It's not ideal, but we must use the existing resources & infrastructure in place now to build towards the future. Iflipti 09:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Quote from the article: Some experts speculate that arcologies will become common in the information age

According to the definition in the information age article, "Information Age is a term applied to the period where movement of information became faster than physical movement, more narrowly applying to the 1980s or 1990s onward." ... I think the sentence should be deleted/rephrased because we clearly are already in the information age.

Then go ahead and do it! This is Wikipedia! —Keenan Pepper 15:14, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would the city of Diaspar in Arthur C. Clarke's "The City and the Stars" count as an arcology?

Vanamond

"Sustainable urban planning"

I've re-inserted this category link. Sustainable urban planning was one of the prime motivations behind Soleri's development of the arcology idea, and is the primary interest of manya majority of the people who go to Arcosanti to study arcology. It does need more emphasis in this article (which I shall attempt to give it, if I can ever get away from the perpetual warfare over at Personal rapid transit), but in the meantime, the category link is still appropriate. Skybum 15:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree entirely that it's relevant. I should have explained in the edit summary, I moved it to Category:Urban studies and planning and Category:Environmental design as part of rationalising the subcategories of Category:Urban studies and planning. Category:Environmental design includes articles like this one - mostly it's related to urban design so far. When the category gets bigger we can have a fresh look at splitting it. On that note, I'll remove Category:Sustainable urban planning again (but if you disagree or have questions, please shoot and/or revert - I'm not intending to enforce my view). --Singkong2005 ^{(t - c - WPID)} 16:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm.. I took a look at the category, and my initial thoughts are: 1.) Sustainable Urban Planning is a vast and distinct concept, and thus deserving of a category unto itself, and 2.) Right now the category isn't actually very useful. New urbanism should be a major subset of sustainable urban plannning, while arcology theory is a relatively quite minor one, so it wouldn't make much sense to have those two subjects portrayed as being on par with one another. And there are many, many other branches of sustainable urban planning that aren't represented at all there. So, at first blush, it looks like you're correct that Arcology shouldn't be in this category, unless a great deal of other topics are, as well. I don't think I have enough background to understand or evaluate the category rationalization that you're currently undertaking; has there been any discussion of this anywhere, so that I can get a better understanding of it? In the meantime, I'll leave your edits alone. Skybum 17:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bionic Tower

I am confused, the See Also link to Bionic tower reads Bionic Tower, Shanghai, but the link is to a location in Hong Kong. Does anyone know if there is a similar structure in Shanghai, or is there some confusion with the Dongtan proposal. Yendor1958 08:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Coruscant is NOT Arcology

Coruscant is most definitely not an Arcology, as can be seen in the wiki article on it, as well as any Star Wars sources. It is a city-planet (a sci-fi concept). It even contains arcologies, but it cannot be considered an "arcology" itself. [User:Dises|Dises]] 2 February 12, 2007

All-capitals complaint by anonymous user

Someone identified only by an IP address wrote the following and put it right into the article:

PLEASE NOTE: IT APPEARS THAT THIS ENTIRE WAS BASED ON FICTIONAL MISUSES OF THE TERM AND NEEDED TO BE REVISED. ITS LACK OF SOURCES HAD ALREADY BEEN NOTED. I AM AT THIS MOMENT LOOKING AT THE TEXTBOOK "Contemporary Urban Planning" by John Levy (3rd Ed. page 156) AND IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT PAOLO SOLERI'S TERM ARCOLOGY REFERS TO THE *PRINCIPLES* OF DESIGN, *NOT TO A STRUCTURE ITSELF*. ARCOLOGY REFERS TO THE SET OF DESIGN PRINCIPLES HE ENVISIONED, AND *"HYPERSTRUCTURE"* IS THE WORD THAT REFERS TO AN ACTUAL STRUCTURE FOLLOWING THOSE PRINCIPLES. THE PROBLEM WITH THIS ARTICLE SEEMS TO BE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE SIM CITY GAMES (WHICH MISUNDERSTOOD AND MISUSED THE TERM ARCOLOGY) HAVE DUPLICATED THIS ERROR OF THE GAME DESIGNERS. THINK ABOUT THE WORD ARCOLOGY; A WORD ENDING IN -OGY IS NOT A PHYSICAL OBJECT, BUT A FIELD OF STUDY OR RESEARCH - A GROUP OF MENTAL CONSTRUCTS. ARCOLOGY REFERS TO THE PRINCIPLES SOLERI ENVISIONED IN HIS BOOK, "The City in the Image of Man." *HYPERSTRUCTURE* IS THE WORD THAT DESCRIBES THE LARGE BUILDINGS/CITY SPACES.

THIS ENTIRE ARTICLE NEEDED TO BE REVISED TO CORRECT THIS PROBLEM!!!!** BEFORE ANYONE IS TEMPTED TO REVISE IT, PLEASE BE SURE OF YOUR (REAL RATHER THAN FICTIONAL) SOURCES...

Whoever wrote that seems to think that the inventor of a term has total control over all subsequent uses of the term, that the meaning of a word never changes or evolves. Moreover, the technical sense used by experts is the only valid measure of meaning, even if a word has entered the non-technical human lexicon with a clear and widely understood meaning.

In other words, I completely reject this "note", and I propose that the article be reverted back to something more like it was before this was posted. (Though perhaps some discussion of the original or technical meaning of the word is warranted.) Kestenbaum 18:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking through this article for the sake of a paper on aquaculture, and I see multiple references to the idea that "arcology" means only a set of design principles and not "megastructures" like the ones I fondly remember from SimCity 2000. I grew up learning that "arcology" could refer to giant self-contained housing structures, and apparently a lot of other people did too, so that's what the word now means! Sure, let's mention the term's origin, but I second the switch to a wording that uses "arcology" the way it's actually used today. --Kris Schnee 10:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's not the way it's used today. Not to pull rank, but I am an architect, former Arcosanti resident, and longtime acquaintance of Paolo Soleri, so I know what I'm talking about here. When referring to a general set of design principles -- as you are talking about -- the term "arcological" is frequently used. However "arcology" itself is a noun, and always has been. It is used that way not only by Sim City (and virtually every cyberpunk book ever written), but by its creator and by the architects and urban planners who have studied the concept. I have seen the term abused occasionally (one "Doctress Neutopia" comes to mind), but this should not be enshrined in a Wikipedia entry.

I will grant you that "arcological" principles are much more relevant to the real world, since such can actually be found in the real world, whereas nothing calling itself an arcology actually exists, beyond the confines of Arcosanti, which is incomplete. But in both fiction and in theory, "arcology" is still used as a noun. Let's not confuse the issue. Skybum 18:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arcolology has nothing to do with building mega-cities it is completely the opposite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 123.3.4.70 (talk) 12:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Simcity2000 Arcology.jpg

Image:Simcity2000 Arcology.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 11:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting article in the news that never mentions the term

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6752795.stm --WhiteDragon 02:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You guys use ridiculous words in this article that don't mean anything to the average user. In the first paragraph alone you say "count noun" and "autarky" as though we are supposed to know what they mean. You should fix this. - random person —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.90.246 (talk) 03:28, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

This article needs revision. It is incredible deception. Majority of article is subculture. Entertainers do not define a concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.82.100.222 (talk) 16:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Xenakis

Does the architectural work of Iannis Xenakis have anything to do with arcology?... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nwerneck (talk • contribs) 15:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Montreal Underground

I just discovered about Calgary's +15. Ok, if that can be considered a proto-arcology then so can Montreal's Underground City or "Montréal Souterrain". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_city%2C_Montreal. I would not presume to say it corresponds to the idea of arcology, though. But as I said, if the +15 is in... Mandragorae (talk) 18:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an article of acceptable quality.

It is a promotional device for Paolo Soleri, maybe by a fan, maybe without Soleri's knowledge or consent. Fawning praise like this is depressing and irritating. Even if the article didn't turn people off, Soleri doesn't need this ballyhoo.Rich (talk) 22:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't think the style is appropriate, rewrite it. The subject itself is notable and goes beyond Soleri; as is noted in a comment on the page the term has also been used extensively in fiction and elsewhere. Soleri may have originated the term but he doesn't control it. Bryan Derksen (talk) 22:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the comments on the page indicate EXTENSIVE use apart from Soleri. I think the subject of the article is unworthy, so it undermines Wikipedia. Of course, i respect your right to disagree! Rich Peterson130.86.14.90 (talk) 23:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]