Talk:Yaoi

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IPA Pronunciation Notation

Could someone please include the proper (i.e.-Proper Japanese) pronunciation of the word "Yaoi". Thanks...IloveMP2yea 04:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a long discussion quite a few posts above yours... I just added it. Stryik 03:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

About the Popular Yaoi Pairings in Anime section

This section is getting out of hand with additions and edit warring. And when I tried to reduce the number of examples, anonymous users started reverting the changes. I don't think that this section adds anything to the article except a source of controversy, and thus I'd like to ask if there would be any support for having it removed. If not, then could we at least agree on no more than two or three pairings per example-type to list there? Before my edit, there were 12 pairings in the "not-quite-Seme/Uke" examples, which is FAR too many. Thanks for reading and replying with your thoughts on the matter. Nique1287 00:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm definitely in agreeance with at least keeping the list trimmed. Having an expansive list can only lead to fandom wars, in my opinion, and there's really no need for something like that. After all, this is an encyclopedia, and should have a certain level of professionalism. I'm not sure how I would feel about eliminating the list entirely, but I do, to reiterate, agree with keeping the list small at the very least. Lithiumflower 00:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please keep it shortened up. Whoever's reverting it keeps using the line "for someone looking for an anime popular in yaoi circles" - I'm not getting this. Surely there's a page out there that can have a list of anime popular with yaoi folks - it doesn't really have anything to do with what _yaoi_ is. If it can't be decided on, I'd rather have no list at all.

FAKE cover?!

Should the fake cover really be the one at the top of the page? I haven't read the entire manga but from what I hear, there's barely anything sexually explicit in it. A short sex scene or two and that's pretty much it. And this is a series that spans seven volumes. FAKE own Wikipedia entry states that it's a BL manga! FallenAngelII - 21/3 2007

Titles in the doujinshi section

I suggest we remove the "Notable titles which have been the subject of yaoi doujinshi" section. It's getting out of hand. If we did list each and every title, it would be a whole lot longer, and some of the titles ocassionally get randomly deleted. I say it should go, for the sake of simplicity. --MayumiTsuji 20:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)MayumiTsuji

Agreed. If there's more than one male character in a series, there's probably been yaoi doujinshi about it, and that list is more than a page long at 1280x1024! I say we scrap it. (Also, please use two = signs (second, instead of first, header) when you're making a new discussion, or use the + button at the top of the page to create one in the proper format automatically. Thanks!) Nique talk 21:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yaoi Wiki?

Homestar Runner has it's own wiki, why not a Yaoi Wiki, or BL Wiki, or at least an Anime/Manga Wiki? (Japanophile Wiki?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.236.220 (talk)

You can make one yourself. Although I don't see why it is needed. This seems like plenty —Preceding unsigned comment added by Animematt (talk • contribs) 18:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Vote on protecting the page

Okay, we've been blanked out by vandals what, twice over the last week? Since there's really not much more to constructively add to the topic, and since we have a major vandal problem with this page, I think we should protect it. ~SeventhHaido 12:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

OMG People

As someone who has a sound knowledge of not only the history of yaoi but the psycho-analytical stance and theory on it - I am appalled by the fluffy and frankly childish way the yaoi article has been written and edited - its gone from lists of pairings, to having factual inaccuracies, to containing nothing of any real substance. I have actually stopped any edits I would have done because it depresses me so to see it constantly changed by people who read yaoi and consider themselves experts because of it. I'm not claiming to be an expert but the work i have done on Japanese popular culture, media and ethnographic psychology has been well recieved and read. I think people mean well but we are no way ready to say this is a finished article and to lock it from edits.... Someone say they agree or I might just go insane. Its a real shame :( --Sharonlees 16:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I wish i was an expert on Yaoi. What a job description for the census! 82.153.230.138 23:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Difference between Shounen Ai & Yaoi

This section is just my opinion. It was removed but I think it should be put back. When I first encountered the terms Shounen-Ai and Yaoi, I was confused which is which. But understanding their etymologies, I came to these conclusions:

Shounen-Ai focuses on the romantic relationship between two boys. This focuses more on romantic love. After all,Shounen-ai literally means "boy love". Yaoi focuses on the sexual relationship between two boys. The theorized etymologies themselves can be used as bases for this. If it did come from "no peak, no point, no meaning," then where is the romantic relationship there? It wouldn't make sense if the focus is love but it would if the focus is sex. Therefore, Shounen Ai is romantic by nature as Yaoi is erotic.

The other possible origin, "Stop, my ass hurts," is obviously pornographic by nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by K.A.David (talk • contribs) 12:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You make a good point that there is a difference between yaoi and shounen-ai but unfortunately fall over on your 'evidence' - the whole origin for the word yaoi being an acronymn is internet hype created fiction and even worse a tasteless joke promoted by those with a less favourable view of the genre. --Sharonlees 12:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

acronym vs backronym

The article said, "The English letters form a backronym of the Japanese phrase...", which can't be the case, for then the phrase would have to be the acronym of the abbreviation. I've changed "backronym" to "acronym", but if it should be stressed that the Japanese phrase is a backronym instead of an original meaning the sentence would have to be reworded altogether. --H.A.L. 15:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The English source is rather irrelevant anyway, since the English word "yaoi" in itself is just roma-ji... it should be correctly written as an acronym, since the Japanese phrase was the source of the Japanese word "yaoi." Stryik 03:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Inaccessible?

Is it just me, or does this page feel a bit difficult to understand for someone with no prior knowledge of the topic? I'm seeing a bunch of terms thrown around everywhere and I don't even know what they all mean... I've added (Boy's Love) next to "BL" in the opening paragraph of the article... does anybody else think this ought to be tagged? Stryik 04:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Equality section

I removed most of the "equality" section as it is biased, incorrect and seems to confuse shoujo/josei BL with gay manga. Here are my reasons:

The title "Equality" is in itself problematic. Suggesting equality as the alternative to traditional seme/uke roles is judgemental and seems to imply that all seme/uke relationships are unequal. There is nothing in the "Seme and uke" section that supports this. The real objective alternative to traditional seme/uke roles is non-traditional seme/uke roles. Also:

1st paragraph:

• Seinen and shounen is not BL. The increasing amount of male/male plots in seinen and shounen is not relevant to a discussion about seme/uke roles in BL/yaoi.

2nd paragraph:

• bara is not considered to be part of the BL/yaoi genre.
• there is no misconception that bara is about equality.

3rd paragraph:

• yaoi/BL is not established as a woman's space "where reality does not matter". Where did that come from?
• equality movement that recognizes gay/bi men- this is not really true, unfortunately. Publishers are aware that gay/bi men read BL but this has no significant effect on the genre. Also, how is this relevant to the subject of traditional seme/uke roles in yaoi/BL?

Tanya had 03:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the point of the seme and uke to NOT have an equal relationship? They all seem very one sided to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Animematt (talk • contribs) 18:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

That's definitely not the point of a seme/uke relationship. The seme and uke might be different from one another but that doesn't mean they're not equal (unless you believe having a square jaw and being a top also means being superior and in control of the relationship). Seme/uke pairings can be equal or unequal, depending on the title. Tanya had (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, well I guess I just don't understand the point of the "uke and seme" then. The vary nature of the definition just rings one dominating over another to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 15:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is bara not considered part of Yaoi? It is maleXmale relations. Also, wasn't bara some of the first maleXmale stories? (Bara tribe and lily tribe) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 15:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Yaoi/BL is part of the shoujo category- it's manga for girls. Bara type muscle men can *only* be found in gay manga for gay men so we're talking two different publishing genres here. I'm not sure how old bara is... the term refers to an old magazine but the art style might be more recent. Gay manga has its own interesting history but unfortunately I don't know a lot about it.Tanya had (talk) 16:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Alright then, But what about a male that writes what you would define as "BL"? I have heard from many people that it is not yaoi unless a female writes it. If it was from a male, they just call it "gay porn" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 05:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally think that if it looks like BL, reads like BL and sold like BL then it's BL (there are actually a few BL writers that are rumored to be male such as Kisaragi Hirotaka). The boundaries aren't so clear in western fandom and no one ever agrees on what counts as "real" yaoi besides commercial BL from Japan. I think this is what creates so much confusion.Tanya had (talk) 19:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I ask because I know that shota is often sold under the yaoi label. I remember when Boku no Pico came out, it was pretty popular. But when the fans found out that a lot of shota is written by males, and or mainyl targeted at males they hated it. Yet the stories would still be considered under the yaoi/shoujo genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 23:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I know very little about shota. All I know is that BL shota that's intended for girls does exist. Shota for men wouldn't be considered as shoujo or BL in *Japan* but anything could happen in the western fandom, where each word seems to have 3 different interpretations... Tanya had (talk) 17:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I would agree in that there is a very small segment of Japanese gay culture that enjoys shota (which would presumably include those who are predisposed to pedophilia). However, given that about 5-7% of the Japanese population is gay (if we go by contemporary estimates), you are talking about a very minuscule number of people as would be consumers. Given that shota is commercially published (Shounen Shikou is a popular one), it is only logical to conclude (read: not original research) that the vastly more populous heterosexual female audience is going to make up the greater share of those consuming said works. I would seriously doubt that it is specifically targeted for the lesser of the two aforementioned audiences. That would not make sense, in the context of a publishing business. You should realize that your western moral judgment and western viewpoint are irrelevant to Japanese women. There just isn't the moral panic caused by the depictions of pre-teens in sexual situations that there is in the west. Japanese society is, by and large, not concerned that a pedophile is lurking behind every dark alley. As such, this sub-genre of yaoi thrives. From what I hear, it is the "cuteness" factor that enamors the women to read such works. Yes, some of the artists are men. But the same is true for yaoi (some of the more notable Naruto doujin-kas are gay men). So, to imply that there are few or no female shota artists is just plain wrong. Most notably, Yun Kouga who is known for Loveless, is one. There are numerous others, you can find some other names on one of the manga databases like "baka-updates manga." As for your comments about Boku no Pico, well that is, once again, from your own viewpoint. Perhaps the circles you travel in felt that way, but most of the yaoi boards would tend to say otherwise. It is hugely popular with the female audience over on Aarinfantasy. Not only that, but all of the shota-con fansubbers and scanlators for Aarinfantasy are female. Furthermore, I'd say it is a safe bet that most all of the scanlation groups that release shota titles are 100% female. Nobody really gives a damn what gender the artist is or who the target audience is, as long as it looks good they'll take it. I also suspect that there is a cheap thrill to be had from reading something that is considered extremely taboo by our western culture. 130.127.48.188 (talk) 21:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Listing titles

Instead of having this Yaoi#List_of_popular_yaoi_titles_from_Japan, wouldn't it be better if we just refered to Category:Yaoi? Added bonus: it would cover all notable titles. Ninja neko 13:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Yaoi imprints

This section seems to list all imprints that have EVER had a yaoi or shounen-ai title, and it's misleading. Many of these imprints (e.g. Margaret, Princess) are overwhelmingly non-yaoi, and if someone bought these imprints in the belief they'd see yaoi titles, they'd be disappointed. Does anyone mind if I remove the imprints that I know are non-yaoi? Lijakaca 18:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC) --I removed them, and also split the section into Imprints, and Magazines.Lijakaca 18:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

PRENOUNCIATION

HOW DO YOU PRONOUNCE YAOI? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.17.249 (talk) 00:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It's "pronunciation". (Momus (talk) 20:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC))

Marketed at girls?

I thought that an important aspect of yaoi was that it is marketed towards girls. Good article about it here: http://www.greencine.com/article?action=view&articleID=96 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.200.131 (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It's already mentioned in the the 'usage' section but it might be a good idea to add it to the introduction as well Tanya had 15:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I am wondering why "yaoi" made by males is not considered Yaoi. I mean...it is still a maleXmale relationship. What makes it not yaoi? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Animematt (talk • contribs) 18:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

sexually explicit or not

There seems to be a tug of war over the "sexually explicit" part of the definition and I can see why- the article is not consistent in its definition of yaoi:

According to most of the article, yaoi is a publishing genre the Japanese call "Boy's Love", but Boy's Love is not always sexually explicit. According to other parts of the article, yaoi is sexually explicit BL and shounen-ai is non explicit BL. This means yaoi is more like a subgenre of Boy's Love.

To untangle this mess we need to choose one definition and stick with it. If yaoi is sexually explicit BL then we can no longer refer to it as a publishing genre and most of the 'Usage' and 'Yaoi vs. BL' sections need to be rewritten. If yaoi IS the same as BL then we need to change parts of the definition, add non sexual titles to the 'Publishing' section and maybe explain that some people only refer to yaoi as sexually explicit (the last paragraph in 'Yaoi vs. BL' mentions this). I personally prefer the second option because it's easier and the better written parts of the article are the ones that equate yaoi with BL in general. Thoughts? Tanya had 15:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tanya My humble opinion is that BL and Yaoi are different. Yaoi is sexually explicit in nature (although it varies in degrees) and BL can simply be stories of male love - without any sexual scenes. There should be no debate (this is definately fact). I have stopped editing recently out of frustration but would appreciate someone addressing the mess --Sharonlees 12:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! The ongoing frustration is no doubt caused by this very issue- someone will always add Gravitation to the list because it's BL, someone will always delete it because it's shounen-ai. I actually think the opposite of you- as far as I can tell the term "shounen-ai" is falling into disuse in western fandom and it's taking the yaoi/shounen-ai dichotomy with it. You just don't see it used much anymore and western publishers never use it either. It seems to me that these days, yaoi is more often used to describe any male/male title marketed at girls, which is the same definition BL has. Now that I think about it, adding a separate, main article about BL with a "yaoi vs. shounen-ai" section might also solve this problem. I will wait for more opinions before I attempt anything.Tanya had 16:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

ok, since I didn't get enough feedback I'm going ahead and changing the article to remove contradictions and make it cohesive. All my reasons are stated above. The matter of yaoi being sexually explicit is addressed in the section about shounen ai and yaoi and I will also add titles that aren't explicit to the publishing list later on. My punctuation is bad and could probably use corrections, though.Tanya had 14:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I just call anything with maleXmale relations in it Yaoi...keeps it simple. I find all these subterms to be a bit annoying, personally —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 21:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I totally understand what you mean but I think this definition of yaoi is even less common than the rest. You're welcome to try and change the article but I'm pretty sure you will encounter strong resistance.Tanya had (talk) 19:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, i have always called it Yaoi, and the other stuff Yuri. Never fancied the shonen/shoujo-ai terms. I suppose I could call it "BL". You have to keep in mind that a lot of yaoi is rather sexually explicit too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 14:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)