Talk:Hezbollah

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Chronological Archive: May 2003 - June 2006 July 2006 – July 2006 Inactive as of August 7, 2006 Inactive as of August 12, 2006 Inactive as of August 20, 2006 Inactive as of August 31, 2006 Inactive as of September 30, 2006 Inactive as of October 30, 2006 Inactive as of December 30, 2006 Inactive as of March 30, 2007 Inactive as of June 30, 2007 Inactive as of September 30, 2007 Inactive as of October 29, 2007 Inactive as of February 9, 2008 Topical archive: POV-Disputed-Controvercial discussions Terrorist allegations structure Lead/Introduction discussions Good article Archive index

Big problems with this article

I'm no expert on Hezbollah, but I can immediately see four five significant problems with the article (only the last fourth of which is under consideration):

1) Hezbollah supporters claim it has now defeated Israel 5 times. We may not accept the claims, but we need to report them properly ("Conflict against Israel" in the article doesn't do it). Here's how a March 07 Counterpunch article lists these victories: 1) The April 30, 1985 Israel withdrawal ... direct result of military pressure from a new organization ... calling itself Hezbollah. 2) July 1993. Israel's "operation accountability". ... UN counted 1,224 air raids and more than 28,000 US shells fired into Lebanon by Israel ... Hezbollah fired Katusha rockets for 10 hours into Galilee settlements ... Israel had enough and contacted Washington to arrange a ceasefire. 3) April 11, 1996 Israel's 'Operation Grapes of Wrath'. ... Hezbollah's victory cost Shimon Peres ... 1996 Israeli election. 4) May 24, 2000. ... abandoning its planned phased withdrawal as well as its agents, the South Lebanon's Army. 5) Hezbollah's claimed (and widely accepted) victory in 2006 July.

2) Hezbollah tries not to punish the many Lebanese who have collaborated. Hezbollah scores mightily with this tactic, which is vital to understanding it's relative success. (Bush and Olmert are alleged to want another Civil War in Lebanon, seeking out and arming small factions - another side of the same coin? - also needs mentioning).

3) There is no mention that the founders of Israel always intended to seize the south of Lebanon. David Ben-Gurion in 1937 wanted the northern border of Israel to be with a new Christian state (while boasting of transfers already carried out). His political opponents, Begin, Shamir etc wanted the whole of Lebanon and much more. It took the Lebanese at least 45 years (since before their state existed until 1982) to wake up to the threat they were and are under, and Hezbollah was and is the first real indication of it. (Dayan was talking of the take-over of Lebanon in 1955 according to Sharett's diaries).--Seyyed(t-c) 12:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

4) We quote the "1985 Hezbollah manifesto" as saying: "our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated." a) The statement in question is not a manifesto (see reasons above). b) Even if this was the manifesto, to use a translation with "obliterate" is needlessly alarming - we have lots of examples of immigrant controlled (and bitterly resented) governments collapsing without too much drama. We're publishing the propaganda of one side with these weasel words. PR^talk 11:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

5) No mention that the Palestinians are Sunni, the opposite of Hezbollah and al-Qaeda and (according to Zarqawi referenced several times) their sworn enemy. Careful work is needed if people are to have a chance of "understanding" the subject. PR^talk 17:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello PR. This is all very interesting, and if you feel this page has big problems without the information you state in #1, #2 and #3 I suggest you write something to this effect based on reliable sources, and add it here for review and consensus before adding it to the article. I think this is a good way to add information into a GA rated article, while not required of course - it is a good way to make sure the relevant, reliably sourced information stays in the article! On #4, I think this one is being discussed above... Cheers. mceder (u t c) 19:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello PalestineRemembered:) Thanks for bringing up some of those changes here. I totally agree that that information should be added to the article. You need to find reliable sources though. If the sources are of bad quality, then I am against adding this. First of all, look for sources written by the experts. If you can't find those, look for news articles. If you add that Bush and Olmert are alleged to want another Civil War in Lebanon, but cite a source from a hezbollah, anti-American, or Anti-Israel website then there will be a problem. Just as adding SWU is unacceptable, adding other propaganda sites is unacceptable. Cheers!--SJP 22:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on Hezbollah, and my distaste for it is such that I don't intend to become one. But just passing acquaintanceship with the topic convinces me that this is an article with major omissions. It completely ignores some of the most important information concerning the subject.

I could try and improve this article, but I'd be concerned that any sources I bring to bear (I've only offered CounterPunch so far, though that should be adequate for what I'm using it for) will be rejected in an effort to paint Hezbollah in the one-dimensional fashion we have here. Finkelstein would be an excellent source for some material - not least because he's exceptionally careful in this area. And yet he's missing completely. Judging by the edit-record, he'd have been aggressively edit-warred out if he was ever in there.

Even where I have unimpeachable sources (such as Ben-Gurion and Moshe Dayan's intention to seize Lebanon), I fear bogus opposition of the kind I suffered on a previous occasion when I tried to edit this article, quoting Ben-Gurion is summararily dismissed as POV. If Lebanon is now uniting behind Hezbollah (as seems possible), then we all want and need to understand what's going on. The current article doesn't help anyone to do this - on a topic where there is such massive disinformation, it should be relatively easy for us to produce something that makes people think "Wow, these Wikipedia people really know their subject". That's not the impression given now. PR^talk 17:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, one revert labeling your edit as POV should not cause fear. It is to be expected really, with so many people from so many places, with so many viewpoints. The best way to go about it is come up with what you want to add or change, find reliable sources and post it in here, asking for comments. The talk page is where we work this through and if we create consensus here, then keeping it in the article will be much easier. I personally do not believe this article is particular one-dimensional as much work has been done to try to include several viewpoints(check out the extensive archive of this talk page to see what I mean......), but everything can be improved so bring it on. mceder (u t c) 22:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

These are my idea about 5 points which PR has mentioned:

1. I have reliable sources for 3, 4 and 5. In the first case we have some problem due to the fact that Hezbollah officially established at that year and it usually deny former operations, although its members participate in them.
2. I think we should expand Hezbollah political activities by adding information about two opposite block in Lebanon and the stance of Hezbollah about 14 March coalition. You can read 2006–2007 Lebanese political protests and Hezbollah political activities.
3. It is written in background that Israel had become militarily involved in Lebanon in combat with the Palestine Liberation Organization which moved into Southern Lebanon after being ousted from Jordan. The PLO was attacking Israel from Southern Lebanon in the lead-up to the 1982 Lebanon War, and Israel had invaded and occupied Southern Lebanon and besieged Beirut. We can change it if you can find reliable sources for your claim.
4. I think it's really the position of Hezbollah at that time and I haven't seen any fact that shows they've changed their idea.
5. There is something about this issue in Hezbollah#Foreign_relations and we moved some more information to a sub-article to reduce the size of this article:Hezbollah foreign relations. We can mention Hamas is Sunni but I oppose to adding more information.Y

--Seyyed(t-c) 12:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

1. If Hezbollah claim they've defeated Israel 5 times, then we should report them doing so. It's not a "surprising" result requiring some cast-iron explanation from a Western RS, the CounterPunch article is entirely adequate. Rejecting non-Western views makes this articles meaningless, as should have been obvious before we started writing it. If we cannot provide a tolerably NPOV article, then the honorable solution is that we flag ourselves here as "Propagandists for the West and incapable of giving anyone else a fair crack of the whip".
2. The "policy of forgiveness to ex-collaborators with Israel" by Hezbollah needs a proper discussion. (I see unexplained reference to the truly astonishing fact that large numbers of Lebanese Christians are said to support Hezbollah). Also mention the boxes of arms being allegedly sent to every identifiable criminal faction - the sources for these statements are bound to be anti-Israel - so? I've just been told (unchallenged) that such sources cannot be used - you can see why I'd not waste my time against this kind of thing.
3. There are excellent, Western, sources that the pre-cursorors of Israel intended to seize some or most of Lebanon. The actual founders of Israel intended it in the 1930s (and long dead ones intended it in the 1890s). It's quite difficult to understand those who seek to edit-war out this information. Is it our intention to provide a caricature bogey-man, or are we trying to write worthwhile articles in a worthwhile encyclopedia?
4. The 1985 "Hezbollah manifesto" is worthless, for the reasons given that nobody seems to have challenged. What's it doing still in the article? There is far, far better evidence that some/many/all Israelis want/wanted the boundaries of Israel to be the Nile and the Euphrates. Israel still isn't telling us what border it wants. Where in the encyclopedia do we have Ben-Gurion saying "the boundaries of Israel is where the Sahal will take us"? (Sahal is the army) It's ludicrous to be quoting the "intentions" of Hezbollah (badly distorted as has been done) and not quoting the intentions of Israel reported by Westernised ex-Israeli bi-lingual Hebrew/English speakers such as Naeim Giladi.
5. We've referenced Zarqawi (long dead Iraqi?) calling Hezbollah apostate, but nothing to indicate that he bears no relation to what is happening between Shi'ite and Sunni in Lebanon. If it's our intention to produce a misleading article, then we've done a fine job. PR^talk 14:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a problem with the reference to "most" orthodox Jews being against Zionism. This is unfounded. It is only certain that some orthodox Jews are against Zionism. Masonirythm (talk) 10:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Decline in funding from Iran?

While copy-editing, noticed this statement: "The US estimates that Iran has been giving Hezbollah about US$60-100 million per year in financial assistance, but that assistance declined as other funding was secured, primarily from South America." However, the article that is cited appears to verify only the estimated $60-100 million, but not the portion of the statement about this figure declining as South American funding rose. I'm not going to change this, but if there is a source for the decline in Iranian funding, please provide; else, perhaps the South American funding should be mentioned without any connection to an Iranian reduction. Unimaginative Username 07:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I looked at Funding of Hezbollah, where the same statement is made, but with two references. The same as in the main article, plus a CNN article. The only reference to Hezbollah funding is this statement:

Barakat is co-owner of Galeria Page, one of Ciudad del Este's biggest shopping malls, which intelligence sources said they believe he has used as a front for raising funds and recruiting volunteers for Hezbollah.

I would not say this is conclusive that South American funding rose.......... I have also attempted to find online sources in this matter, but with no success. I have removed "but that assistance declined as other funding was secured, primarily from South America." until such reference can be located. mceder (u t c) 18:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good... thanks. Unimaginative Username (talk) 07:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Position of Russian Federation

Copy-edit is complete. The only other content issue I noted (besides the above) was that there is still a tag (challenge) in the section on Russia's position on Hezbollah. Would suggest that a consensus be reached there before FAR. Good luck with FA! Unimaginative Username 07:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I propose we delete this sentence since it doesn't really serve any purpose and is borderline original research. ---- GHcool (talk) 17:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I second the deletion. It is not very clear, and I am not quite sure what the piece is trying to say anymore. I am sure there was a point in there somewhere, sometime. mceder (u t c) 18:39, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

That was my impression, but having not done any research on this topic, only copy-editing it, I felt that the change should be made only by editors involved with this article. I agree with the two posts above, and do think it reads more clearly and flows better now. Regards, Unimaginative Username (talk) 07:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

For further copy-edit assistance...

In copy-editing this article, I've become rather interested in it and in its progress to FA. I'm at WP only intermittently, but if you feel that I could be of any further assistance in this area, please feel free to place a message on my talk page. Will respond when able. Peace, Unimaginative Username (talk) 05:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad that you're interested in this article. I suggest you help us with it before nominating for FA. This let you improve other articles. You see, due to the fact that it's not a calm article and now and then we have editorial war, it cause wiki-stress. --Seyyed(t-c) 11:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind comments. I have not done any research on this topic, and so cannot contribute as far as content. I meant that when you resolve the content issues and get it to a stable version with consensus, I would be happy to copy-edit again. As for helping with the wiki-stress of a controversial article, I am not an admin, and I am not sure that it would be proper to act as some sort of unofficial moderator. But as a copy-editor, I like to see all WP articles well-written, in a fair and balanced manner. If there is something specific I could do, let me know. Unimaginative Username (talk) 05:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Nasrallah quote about suicide bombers

Well, hello again. Didn't intend to become involved in content issues, but in reviewing, saw this statement: " But until such a settlement is reached, he said that he would continue to encourage Palestinian suicide bombers." I read the article that is cited as a source for this statement, a 2003 interview with Nasrallah. There is no such quote. The interviewer says of Nasrallah, "In his speeches to the faithful, his language is laced with ... rationalizations for suicide bombings. ". "Rationalization" is not quite the same degree as actively "encouraging". I didn't see anything in this interview in which Nasrallah encourages suicide bombings until there is a Palestinian state; the other parts of this section indicates that he feels such a settlement is a Palestinian matter. Unless someone sees something else in the interview that I missed, or has other sources, it seems that this statement should be removed, as misrepresenting Nasrallah's position. Perhaps changed to, "However, Nasrallah has rationalized suicide bombing attacks." That is the most NPOV way that I could describe what was in this 2003 interview. Unimaginative Username (talk) 06:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your careful attention. Please correct the article whenever you find such a mistake.--Seyyed(t-c) 03:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Since this article is the subject of so much controversy, I would prefer to wait a few days to see if anyone posts an objection here. If not, then I or anyone else can change it as suggested. Unimaginative Username (talk) 06:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• I have revised the first three sentences of this paragraph to conform to the material in the two articles that are cited as sources. Unimaginative Username (talk) 21:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The "Background" and "History" section

This discussion started briefly during the Peer Review, but I moved it here the PR was nearly at its end.

First, I am opposed to the "Background" section in the article. In its current state, it's vague, poorly written and with no clear goal to what this section precisely describes. Does it mean "Background to Hezbollah"? A rather odd terminology since we're not talking about an event or a war. "Background" might mean "Origins of Hezbollah", but if it was true it would've belonged to a "History" section. Maybe it provides some insights to better understand Hezbollah (?), but I don't see how Hezbollah is so complex so a reader won't understand it. Anywyay, I don't understand the need for this section, unless you clearly define its objective.

Second, why there is no "History" section like any article on an entity or organization? You are claiming that the article is too complex, but it's not a valid objection. This article fails to present in a concise, clear and easy-to-find way a summary of the history of Hezbollah, a piece of information any reader doing a research will need. If you're saying that the article is too long, the problem comes from the other sections or the whole organization of the article. If you're saying that it's too complex and controversial, there exist many good summaries about Hezbollah (check CrisisGroup, and see the last Lebanon report). Finally, a "History" section is a standard in all Wikipedia article, and I don't see why should this article should be treated differently.

Anyway, as I said, this article is remarkably written in a neutral way and it deserves to reach FA status. CG (talk) 18:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

We can write history instead of background and move some part of it to the lead. But please scan this archive. The section was called "Introduction" last year, when we made that archive. You may find the answer of your questions here. Also there is an index for the former debates of this article. --Seyyed(t-c) 15:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Great index! Cool bot! OK, I'll check past discussions before I argue more :-) But, I might be busy these following weeks, so please excuse my late responses. CG (talk) 22:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic language in lead

I realize that a great amount of time has been spent debating and working on this article to reach a consensus, most of which I have not read, I see a problem in the language of at least the lead. Namely: "Hezbollah's three main goals" ... "Hezbollah has realized that the goal of ..." "Hezbollah wishes for the destruction of Israel,..."

We don't know what Hezbollah's goals or wishes are. What we know what Hezbollah has said, and what some claim it has done. This is not at all a minor point since in at least one country (USA), Hezbollah is considered the #2 terrorist enemy (in terms of civilians and off-duty soliders of that country killed) next to al-Qaeda. It is very common for books that mention Hezbollah (at least ones published in the USA) to describe it as the perpetrator of the bombings of both the US embassies and of Multinational Peacekeeping Force barracks, without any caveat, i.e. they state it as a fact on which there is no debate worth mentioning. Yet Hezbollah denies the charge. So i put it to you that it is important to use wording in the article consistant with what is known. We should change the wording on this lead and probably in the rest of the story to reflect that.

Proposed change:

Hezbollah (Arabic: حزب الله Template:ArabDIN,

literally "party of God") is a Shi'a Islamic political and paramilitary organization based in Lebanon. It follows an Islamist Shi'a ideology developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran.

Hezbollah first emerged during the Lebanese Civil War as a militia of Shia followers of the Ayatollah Khomeini, trained, organized and funded by a contingent of Iranian Revolutionary Guards. in its manifesto Hezbollah lists its three main goals as the eradicattion of Western colonialism in Lebanon, the bringing to justice of those who committed atrocities during the war (specifically the Phalangists), and the establishment of an Islamic government in Lebanon. Since then Hezbollah has temporarily abandoned the goal of transforming Lebanon into an Islamic state as impractical at this time. Hezbollah leaders have also made numerous statements calling for the destruction of Israel, which they describe as an unlawful "entity".

Six countries, including the United States and the United Kingdom, officially list Hezbollah or its external security arm as a terrorist organization, though its designation as such is not unanimous among world powers (perhaps most notably, the European Union). Most in the Arab and Muslim worlds regard Hezbollah as a legitimate resistance movement.

Hezbollah has popular support in Shi'a Lebanese society and has mobilized demonstrations of hundreds of thousands. In addition, Hezbollah receives arms, training, and financial support from Iran and has "operated with Syria's blessing" since the end of the Civil War. Hezbollah, which started with only a militia, has grown to an organization with seats in the Lebanese government, a radio- and a satellite television-station, and programs for social development. Since 1992, the organization has been headed by Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, its Secretary-General.

In addition the lead should say that Hezbollah is now the only armed non-governmental group in Lebanon.

--BoogaLouie (talk) 17:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I would not prevent this proposed change from being adopted. --GHcool (talk) 19:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Please pay attention to the former discussion about the lead:Talk:Hezbollah/Archive lead. I think the lead has emphasized on the original goal of Hezbollah while it has changed to some extent. There is several books which discuss about this transformation like "The Shifts in Hizbullah's Ideology: Religious Ideology, Political Ideology". --Seyyed(t-c) 03:11, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Support of Hezbollah banned from User space?

Offtopic, I know, but I imagine someone who has this on their watchlist might have an opinion to offer here. -- Kendrick7^talk 05:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow. How utterly stupid. --mceder (u t c) 18:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Changes

I made a change here [1]. This was what the first source says. The second one was about Iran's admission of helping Hezbollah from an Israeli newspaper, so I added a note that a third perspective source(like UN) or an Iranian source is required for this. Cheers, --Be happy!! (talk) 07:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)