Talk:Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles

T-800 = Arnold Terminator

Will people stop changing Cromartie's description to "Arnold Terminator". That specific model is the T-800, calling it an "Arnold Terminator" is not only redundant, but incorrect, as he was but one of many models of the series. So please, leave it as T-800.

While I absolutely agree that the "Arnold Terminator" description should be removed, it has not yet been revealed what model number Cromartie is. So assuming it is a T-800 is incorrect. (For Eg: Arnold in T3 is a T-850 as he has modifications from the T-800 Units. In SCC we are dealing with essentially a different Skynet, which goes online in 2011, so Cromartie could clearly be a further modified version. Until it is revealed what model Cromartie is, the description should just detail the abilities we know he has.Tullyano7

Of course, Cromartie really can't be a T-800, as he (in all likeliness) comes from a future, where the T-800 never came into existence, or at least, not as we would know it. However, it's still true that Cromartie's model has a lot in common with the T-800/850.

I thought the first movie referred to Arnold as Cyberdyne Systems Model 101. --Neilrieck (talk) 02:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

In Terminator and Terminator 2, Schwarzenegger played a Cyberdyne Systems Series 800 Model 101. Series 800 is the endo-skeleton, and Model 101 is the Arnold-looking outer body. Meaning that a Model 102 would look like someone else. In Terminator 3 Schwarzenegger played a Cyberdyne Systems Series 850 Model 101.
The older fake/rubber looking Terminators were Series 600. See Terminator (character) —MJBurrage^(T•C) 06:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

As the Terminator (character) article states, in the first two movies he is only called "The Terminator" and a "Cyberdyne Systems Model 101". T3 calls him a T-101. Anything with an '8' in it, is not in the movies. So, yes, Neilrieck, you are correct. ColdFusion650 (talk) 21:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Series 800 Model 101 Version 2.4 is shown on-screen in the director's cut of Terminator 2. —MJBurrage^(T•C) 04:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Kyle Reese says he's a T-800 Model 101, in the "very tough" line, with the specs for the titanium battle skeleton. 70.55.84.253 (talk) 06:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Episode 4 of season 1 - "Heavy Metal" - shows a short sequence in which Cameron displays a video for the Connors. She zooms the video in to show Cromartie's head lying behind Sarah on the film. The on-screen 'head-up display' identifies the head as a component of a 'T-888' model. - Shrivenzale (talk) 14:56, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

But we already knew this, didn't we? :o) - Shrivenzale (talk) 14:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The snack chip

I feel stupid even mentioning this, but this is the kinda thing that people tend to obsess about, so: I removed the comment about Cameron (Glau's terminator) eating the snack chip being "never seen before". There's actually a deleted scene from the first film where the original terminator eats a candy bar. It's on the 2003 "Special Edition" DVD if you want to verify it. I played around with the text for a bit, trying to come up with wording that could allow for this, but everything I came up with was really cumbersome. I eventually just gave up, as it really doesn't add anything special to the article. —DragonHawk (talk|hist) 04:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Casting

I am curious if anyone else has noticed this, but I am having trouble locating a casting credit for the actor playing Charles Dixon, he doesn't appear on the IMDB page. What is the actors name? I think it looks like Dean Winters, but I wasn't able to catch his name in the credits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.228.116 (talk) 05:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Dean Winters is indeed credited as a guest star in the overlaid opening titles (in the scene where Sarah confronts John in his bedroom and tells him they're leaving ("pancakes")). No character name is given. A Google search did find lots of press mentions, though. I've added a ref to the article. —DragonHawk (talk|hist) 03:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Extended reality

Can a section be added outlining the Extended Reality promotion running alongside the series currently? Takebackthefuture.com existed pre-airing, along with Enitech research's site, and now Dyson Trust. Updates have occurred since the show aired, so it wasn't just a pre-airng promotion - it's anongoing extended reality, a trend shown with other shows, such as Heroes, Lost, Jericho, and others. --Thebruce0 (talk) 15:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Timeline

I put the following together by re-watching the DVDs and episodes, after coming across multiple inconsistencies. For example John could not be 15 in 1999, based on his birth date from T2. Also since I do not have T3 on DVD I only included a couple key dates from that film, referencing them from online sources.
Should this be its own article? and if not, how much should be in the various existing articles? —MJBurrage^(T•C) 22:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I think most of the information is irrelevant. If we were going to use it, one of the major errors is that it contains both SCC and T3 which take place in completely different timelines. Sticking them into one timeline makes things very confusing. 1997 Sarah Dies, 1999 Sarah and John leave Charley. A proper timeline would create two branches after T2, one for SCC, one for T3. However, this is not really encyclopedic, and looks like it belongs on a fan site like Terminator Files. ColdFusion650 (talk) 00:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

But will SCC really ignore T3, or could a future episode show in a flashback how the timeline changed from the T3 version to the SCC version? (They have referenced the cancer already for example.)
The reason I started putting this together (with the notes) was that a number of external sites would list dates without giving detailed sources, and I kept finding unexplained contradictions. It occurred to me that having it all in one place on Wikipedia might be helpful. —MJBurrage^(T•C) 01:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Just removed an auto signature from my most recent addition to the material below. —MJBurrage^(T•C) 04:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the series creators, they really will ignore T3. ColdFusion650 (talk) 22:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Chronological timeline

Dates and times in bold are direct quotes from dialog or shown on screen. Other dates are direct calculations. (Note, quoted dates are not linked so that they will not be reformatted.)

Some dates changing—such as the date for "Judgment Day"—fit changes to the timeline resulting from time travel, but some are obvious inconsistencies between—and sometimes within—productions.

The timeline also ignores Terminator stories from written media such as novels and comic books for clarity.

• 1959 – Sarah Conner born according to her tombstone.^(T3) This would make her 24 or 25 in The Terminator.
• 1963 – Security Trust of Los Angeles; bank vault and contents built by a time traveler under the name E. Boykins.^{(SCC Ep.01)}
• (1964-05-11 – 1965-05-15) – Range of dates for Sarah Connor's birth according to her being noted as 19 in the script for The Terminator.^(T1)
  • (1965-08-25 – 1966-08-23) – Range of dates for Sarah Connor's birth according to her FBI file which gives her age as 33 on August 24th, 1999.^{(SCC Ep.01)} This would make her age 18 during The Terminator.
  • February 4th – Sarah birthday according to Sarah Baum's drivers license.^{(SCC Ep.02)}

• 1984 1:52 AM – The Terminator (Series 800 Model 101) arrives from 2029.^(T1)
  • 12th… May… Thursday… – Date according to police officer.^(T1)
  • Friday night – Sarah is attacked by the first Terminator at the bar Tech Noir.^(T1)
  • Saturday – John Connor is conceived before Sarah destroys the first Terminator at the factory.^(T1)
  • 5/19/84 – Date Sarah Connor's current "Pay Period Ends" according to her time card.^(T1)

• 2/28/85 – John Connor born (from his police record).^(T2)
  • (1983-08-25 – 1984-08-23) – Range of dates for John Connor's birth according to Sarah's FBI file which gives his age as 15 on August 24th, 1999.^{(SCC Ep.01)} This entire range is too early to fit with the official date of The Terminator, but not the originally scripted date.

• (1995-02-28 – 1996-02-27) – Range of dates for when the Connors and Myles Dyson destroy his work at Cyberdyne. (John is age 10 according to his police record).^(T2)
  • The Sarah Connor Chronicles suggests that this was late 1997 ("Almost two years" before September 1999).^{(SCC Ep.01)}

• August 4th, 1997 – Skynet Missile Defense System goes online (original timeline).^(T2)
  • August 29th, 1997 – "Judgment Day" (original timeline).^(T2)
• late 1997 – Sarah dies of cancer after seeing "Judgment Day" pass uneventfully. Year from her tombstone.^(T3)

• June 25, 1999 – Cameron's arrival date, it took her "73 days" to find the Connors.^{(SCC Ep.01)}
• West Fork, Nebraska: August 24th, 1999 – Sarah and John leave Charles Dixon. It's been "almost two years" since Terminator 2. FBI file lists Sarah age 33, and John age 15.⁽SCC Ep.01)
  • Red Valley, New Mexico: September 6th, 1999 – John meets Cameron.^{(SCC Ep.01)}
  • September 7, 1999 – Cromartie (Terminator) attacks John at Crestview High School.^{(SCC Ep.01)}
  • 09.10.1999 – Date the Connors and Cameron jump forward from.^{(SCC Ep.01)}

• July 24, 2004 – Skynet Missile Defense System goes online and triggers a nuclear apocalypse. (post T2 timeline, T3 version).^(T3) Date from the Series 850 Model 101's internal clock.

• December 4th, 2005 – Sarah would have died from cancer, according to Cameron.^{(SCC Ep.02)}

• September 10, 2007 (after 7:30 p.m.) – Date the Connors and Cameron arrive on (after twilight).^{(SCC Ep.01)} The time machine shows a jump of 78892.31163 units.^{(SCC Ep.01)} This number of hours is exactly consistent with a 9 year jump (the original script had them jumping from 1998), whereas the jump shown—around 9:10 a.m. on 1999-09-10 to around 7:30 p.m. on 2007-09-10—was about 70,138.3 hours.

• April 19th, 2011 – Skynet Missile Defense System goes online (post T2 timeline, SCC version).^{(SCC Ep.01)}
  • April 21, 2011 – Skynet triggers a nuclear apocalypse 2 days later (post T2 timeline, SCC version).^{(SCC Ep.01)}

• August 29th, 2027 – In a future where Skynet was never able to launch its war on humanity, Sarah (now a Grandmother) watches John (now a Senator) playing with his daughter while she reminises on the original "Judgment Day".^{(T2 Alternate Ending)}

• 2027 – Cameron's year of origin (post T2 timeline, SCC version).^{(SCC Ep.01)}
• 2029 – Year of origin for the Series 800 Model 101's,^(T1) and the Series 1000 (original timeline).^(T2)
• 2032 – Year of origin for the Series 850 Model 101 (post T2 timeline, T3 version).^(T3)

info

in terminator 3 it is said that Sarah Conner died 1997 in the tv series after they time traveled to 2007 the terminator states that sarah conner would died in 2005 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.245.210 (talk) 02:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

This information is already in the article. ColdFusion650 (talk) 22:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to wonder if this information really belongs here in the entry for the series, or whether it more properly belongs (solely) in the entry for Sarah Connor (Terminator) (where it currently also exists)? If people do think it should be here, perhaps at least a re-naming of the entry to something about date inconsistencies rather than just "birth and death"? --Umrguy42 (talk) 05:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Please think before you revert

The final pilot for the show was made publicly available on tv.yahoo.com one week before it was shown on TV. It showed that several of the rumored changes to the pilot were false. I then removed this false information from the article. Users ColdFusion650 and AlistairMcMillan added this false information back to the article without verifying it.

I suggest, in order to improve the article, that when a user removes information and provides a reference to show that it is false, other editors check the source before blindly putting the information back in. 76.31.249.88 (talk) 02:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

What? I don't even under stand what you are saying. The article says, "Fox Entertainment Chairman Peter Liguori said that a certain aspect of the pilot, involving a Terminator posing as a teacher attacking John at school, would be changed following the shooting at Virginia Tech." That information is true. Regardless of what aired, the guy said that. It is not false information. About not checking a source: I did see the show on Yahoo TV, and did see that the scenes remained. I didn't blindly put anything back in. However, as I said before, the information was true. The Fox Chairman said those things. Whether or not he was correct, he said them, and that should remain in the article, along with a note that he was wrong. And that's exactly what's in the article. So, I really don't understand the complaint. What are you complaining about again? ColdFusion650 (talk) 02:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

His statement was false. Why was it relevant to leave it in? Additionally, the antagonist terminator in the pilot, Cromartie, was not recast. The other actor plays another terminator who is first seen in the second episode. 76.31.249.88 (talk) 02:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

His statement showed that they at least briefly intended to remove it. Now, in the second episode, Cromartie had his face covered. We know he is missing his skin. It's possible that once he gets a new biological covering, the new actor will portray Cromartie. In this instance, our source would be true. Since we don't have any evidence that the source the article cites is wrong, we should leave it. Remember, if you want to contradict a reliable source, you have... another reliable source. Until we can say for absolute sure that the new guy will not be playing Cromartie, we should not randomly remove information from the article. ColdFusion650 (talk) 02:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Continuity Errors Section

The events of T3 might have been put aside because of the time traveling bit, but that would have not changed the year that Sarah Connor died. If they would have wanted to put the cancer issue aside as well, they would have, but they kept it. Also, if something is relevant or not is your personal opinion and that does not count. I await your response. Duhman0009 (talk) 21:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC) (cross posted from User talk:ColdFusion650)

Your first sentence is wrong. If they ignore T3, they ignore T3. Therefore, there can be no continuity errors springing from differences with T3. Your second point is also wrong. Relevancy does count. Imagine what Wikipedia would be like if every article contained tons of irrelevant information. What if the article for George Bush contained an explanation on why the sky is blue? How stupid would that be? It has to be pertinent to the topic. As far as it being my opinion, of course it is. You cannot scientifically prove what is and is not relevant. It is a judgment call, which by definition calls for an opinion. It is your opinion that it is relevant. See how pointless it is to bring it up? ColdFusion650 (talk) 21:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Relevance is a PPOV, not acceptable on Wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duhman0009 (talk • contribs) 15:53, January 20, 2008 (UTC) (cross posted from edit summary)

Are you saying that relevance does not matter on Wikipedia? What about [[WP:Topic], or Wikipedia:Relevance of content? And again, relevance is a judgment call. It requires an opinion. You are asserting your opinion that the content is relevant. Don't bash me for asserting mine. ColdFusion650 (talk) 22:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

How dare you post for me, I'm reporting this. Duhman0009 (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not posting for you. I'm taking the comments you made in many and varied places (edit summaries, my talk page) and moving them here to make things easier to read and keep up with. And it clearly says "cross posted from [[User talk:ColdFusion650]" or "cross posted from edit summary" along with the time you made the edit so someone could look up the edit summary if they didn't believe me. ColdFusion650 (talk) 22:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The simple fact that you did this proves that you believe that you're in charge of this situation, making this even more important to request the help of an admin, which I already did. I'll wait. Duhman0009 (talk) 22:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

EDIT: Well it seems that this is actually a rule, so me being pissed about it won't do much good, however, one admin felt that you should have done a better job to make it more obvious that you weren't the one posting it. Anyway, I'll start posting below so that it doesn't get mixed up with this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duhman0009 (talk • contribs) 03:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it's quite clear that, for all intents and purposes, this show is ignoring T3. Therefore it's not a continuity error if something in this show contradicts something from T3. In any case, to include any "continuity errors", there would need to be a reliable source stating that it's a continuity error (per WP:V and WP:RS). Without one, it's original research which isn't permitted. Chaz ^Beckett 02:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree regarding the timeline issue, mainly because it's been stated and that it's obvious that if they go after Skynet before it's being build/rebuilt, that they have a chance of preventing Judgment Day, making the T3 timeline disappear, but changing the future doesn't change the past.

Let's play make belief, let's pretend that you have cancer and that before dying from that, you get hit by a car and die, that makes the original timeline of your life. Now let's say that I travel through time and push you away from that car, that would be timeline line #2 of your life. Now in timelife #2, I saved your life, but you still have cancer.

I have nothing against them wanting to get rid of the T3 events since I personally hated that movie, but unfortunately, they added information that took place before T2 and that's Sarah Connor gets diagnostic with Leukemia before the events of the 2nd movie, so how would changing the timeline after the 2nd movie change the timeline from before that? If the producers wanted the remove the entire concept of Sarah having cancer, they would have removed it, but they didn't, they changed the date of her death. The events of T3 takes place well after her death (1997) and the events of the series takes place in 1999.

Since the series to take place a few years after T2, the only possible conclusion would be a Continuity Issue where the writers either goofed or decided to change the date for whatever reason. In any case, this is common in movie sequels or series that follows movies, which is why they're called Continuity Issues. Hell, there's even one that goes on between T1 and T2.

Duhman0009 (talk) 03:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, here's the deal. You don't know how she got cancer. You don't know where the timeline split. It split sometime after T2. It's possible that the timeline split before she encountered whatever gave her the first cancer. Then, she encountered something that gave her cancer later. Perhaps in the series timeline she quit smoking. The damage was already done. But since she wasn't smoking anymore, it took longer to develop the cancer, or for the cancer to grow strong enough to kill her. The point is, we just don't know where the timeline split. In your example, what if we went back in time and prevented that person from getting cancer and prevented them from getting hit by a car? Lets say they got cancer from working around asbestos. Removing them from that job could keep them from getting cancer. See how easy it is to use time travel to remove (or delay) cancer? See, your just not thinking far back enough. You assume that she had cancer in T2, and therefore both timelines must be equal in that regard. ColdFusion650 (talk) 04:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, now I need to ask, have you ever watched Terminator 3? I'm asking this because all of your questions can be answered in this movie. She got cancer in 1994, before the events of the 2nd movie which took place in 1995 (stated by John Connor in T3) and the cancer she got was Leukemia, which is not something you easily get like lung cancer (smoking). So it doesn't matter when the timeline splits, she got Leukemia before the events of the 2nd movie.

But then again, there's another contradiction in the series regarding the dates. T2 takes place in 1995 and in the series, John says that it's been 2 years since the events took place, meaning that it should have been 1997 and not 1999. You see how easy it is to goof up (and this has nothing to do with T3)?

Duhman0009 (talk) 04:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I've seen T3, but T2 does not explicitly say that it takes place in 1994. You assume that. And the cause of leukemia is unknown. ColdFusion650 (talk) 13:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

No I didn't. John said that she learned that she had leukemia back when they were living in Baja, before she got put in the mental institute and before the events of T2. John also says that the doctors gave her 6 months to live, but she lasted 3 years, just so that she could make sure that Judgment Day didn't happen. 1997 - 3 = 1994 and the events of T2 took place in 1995. As for leukemia, the most common reason why you have this cancer is because you were meant to have it (genetic defect), outside influences are rarer case and smoking is not one of them.

Off topic, an admin stated what I didn't which is that you are aggressively reverting everything you can on this article. Not that I care or anything, but you need to remember that this article does not belong to you and that anyone is free to add things to it that are legit. I don't know if you've seen T3, if you remember the events or if you're simply trying to avoid the facts, but what I just stated regarding the events are true. Duhman0009 (talk) 19:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It's also important to remember that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." If a statement is not based on verifiable information from a reliable source, it may not be included in the article. In this case, there isn't a source stating that anything regarding Sarah's cancer is a continuity error. The arguments that have been made on this talk page are fine for discussion, but would constitute original research if added to the article. Unless verifiable information on the continuity error is found, it simply can't be added to the article. Chaz ^Beckett 13:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Since when is common logic an original research. Do I need to show proof that 2 + 2 = 4? The T3 movie stated that Sarah died from Cancer 1997, she had it for 3 years, meaning 1994, the T2 movie too place in 1995. The series takes place in 1999 and guess what, with the 3rd episode that has just been shown yesterday, she doesn't even have cancer anymore, so they pretty much dropped the entire issue. If this is not a continuity error, what is it then? Duhman0009 (talk) 04:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It's original research because it's a textbook example of synthesis. You've taken information from several different sources and come up with your own conclusion. This isn't at all like simple addition (2+2=4). An example of that would be stating that they travled eight years into the future, using the dates of September 1999 and September 2007.

One of the main issues here is that T3 is being ignored by the creators of the series. So any argument that relies on information from T3 is almost certainly flawed. But let's put aside the T3 issue for a moment. Let's assume for the sake of argument that T3 isn't being ignored. The main issue here is that you've made the conclusion that the only possible explanation for the alleged discrepency is that it's a continuity error. But what if characters from either T3 or the series are lying? What if Sarah didn't actually die from cancer? Now we could debate this until the end of time, but the point is that this is another possibility. Therefore, it's quite possible that it wouldn't be a continuity error even if T3 isn't ignored.

Wikipedia policy is quite clear that the burden of proof is on the editor wishing to add or retain information in an article. The information must be verifiable and cite a reliable source. If a source can be found that labels Sarah's cancer as a continuity error, only then can it be added. Chaz ^Beckett 12:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, it's called connecting the dots, the dates are there, the facts are there and I didn't make any of them up. The example you gave about the characters lying, now that would be making things up. Please explain to me, in your own words (stop quoting Wiki and talking behind huge words) how this is not a continuity error that Sarah is not dead after John said in T3 that she died 3 years before 1997 (1994) and that the series takes place in 1999 with her alive and kicking.

Also, do keep in mind the the producers said that they're simply going in a different timeline from T3 and not ignoring everything that was stated in T3. Like I said before, the concept of taking another timeline is to take a different path to your future, not to change the past. If Sarah would have gotten cancer from being exposed to something in the 3rd movie and died from it, then yes, taking a different timeline and not having the events of T3 take place would make Sarah's existence perfectly plausible in the future (2007). But according to John, she got cancer before T2, so how's changing the future of 1999 change anything before that? Even if time traveling is pure fiction, simple logic is still very real. Duhman0009 (talk) 02:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if it is true or not. If it is not cited to a reliable source, you can not put it in the article. That is long held policy, and just good sense. As you put it, "connecting the dots" is illegal. ColdFusion650 (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally think that both of you are twisting some Wikipedia rules in order to make your point stand. I'm all for relying on statements and facts, but process of elimination and connecting the dots are another ways to find facts and answers. If a person was born on January 1950 and dies on February 2010, would it be wrong for me to state that this person would have died at 60 years old even if no news report have ever stated his/her age, only date of birth and date of death? Anyway, I'll see if others have opinions about this. Duhman0009 (talk) 01:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

There's no twisting of Wikipedia rules here, the verifiability and no original research policies are quite clear on standards for inclusion. Wikipedia contains facts, not opinions. You may be basing your conclusion on facts, but it's still an interpretation, which is an opinion.

Once again you're using a comparison with simple math, which is completely different from the argument you're making about Sarah's cancer. You're going well beyond simple math and making several assumptions, including that information from T3 should be considered and that no other explanation exists. This last part is particularly important because a continuity error only occurs when it's impossible for there to be consistency. I've already provided one possibility (John wasn't telling the truth in T3), and plenty more exist.

We could back and forth on this forever, but the bottom line is that you need a verifiable source stating that this a continuity error. You can chalk this up to "twisting some Wikipedia rules", but that's simply what the standard for inclusion is. Chaz ^Beckett 13:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Please provide me with the exact sentence in these rules you pointed out that states that the evidence I brought up should not be accepted. Duhman0009 (talk) 20:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually the whole first paragraph of the verifiability policy is relevant:

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."

The first paragraph of no orginal research is also quite pertinent:

"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented."

I'd recommend reading the complete text of both of those policies as they provide an excellent background to editing on Wikipedia. Chaz ^Beckett 20:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure that's all? I'm asking because once I contradict that, I don't you copy and pasting another "quote" from the rules in order to keep this going? Duhman0009 (talk) 21:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The policies stand whether I quote them or not. Seriously, just let it go. Chaz ^Beckett 22:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

You'd like that wouldn't you :P. No, I can't let it go, mainly because I was right, you are twisting a rule to put the situation in your favor, not by much, just a bit. Going by what these rules are saying, everything needs a source. Well no, problem I could either link to video segments of the movies or simply scripts of them. You see, the sources are in the movies and yes, it is simple math to calculate dates, it's not a theory or assumption like saying that John Connar must have lied. Duhman0009 (talk) 23:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

No, you're wrong on several levels. What is it about original research that you don't understand? Since you apparently want one-sentence summaries, try this one: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. Go read the no orginal research policy. Then read it again. Keep reading it until you actually understand it. Or go and try and find a reliable source that states that Sarah Conner's cancer is a continuity error. Your argument doesn't make sense and I'm starting to think you're just interested in arguing. Chaz ^Beckett 23:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

By presenting reliable sources which indicates the dates of the events, I would be able to prove that Sarah Connor was to die in 1997 from cancer which she was diagnosed with in 1994, gotcha. Duhman0009 (talk) 23:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That would actually fall under the "unpublished analysis... of published material" in the OR policy. Any way you slice it, the policy has been written in such a way that loop holes are nearly impossible, and if they exist, it won't be that simple. ColdFusion650 (talk) 14:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Since when are movie quotes and scripts are considered unpublished? Sorry, I don't buy it. Duhman0009 (talk) 17:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You said in your previous post, "I would be able to prove". That is unpublished analysis. It's not allowed. ColdFusion650 (talk) 18:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I would be able to prove by showing movie clips from the Terminator movies and scripts which state the dates of the events. Either you have problems understanding what I'm saying or you're dancing around the main issue here. Duhman0009 (talk) 20:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

No, either you're not understanding what I'm saying, or you're dancing around the issue. The point is, you think that if you can analyze published sources and come up with an argument, you should be able to put it in the article. What I'm saying is, that's explicitly not allowed. You may want to read WP:SYN. It talks about exactly what you are doing. ColdFusion650 (talk) 20:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Once again, a Wiki rule is being twisted in order for a user to make his PPOV seem valid. The Terminator movies are pretty much the same source, hell they're not even an outside source, they're THE source, you can't get any higher than that. I'm not combining different sources, I'm using the same source. Duhman0009 (talk) 22:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to add something else, I don't really need to post any movies quotes or YouTube movies, everything I need is on the Wikipedia pages of John and Sarah. Also, you'll noticed that similar "Connect the Dots" conclusions are already posted on Sarah's page. Now if that was against the rules, wouldn't these be gone by now. Duhman0009 (talk) 23:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That's another rule. Just because another page does it one way, doesn't mean its right. No one is bending any rules, the entire purpose of these rules is to keep out our own ideas and theories. If you have to work out anything, or connect any dots, then your doing it wrong. It should all be sourced. Some dots just arn't meant to be connected. Just go find a good source that supports your claim and use that. OR won't last without it. 125.253.33.233 (talk) 07:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

And who are you Mr. IP ? Duhman0009 (talk) 11:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Why does it matter who the IP is? His/her point is valid: you find a source that explicitly states what you're trying to add (no "connecting the dots") or the info doesn't go in. It's that simple. Chaz ^Beckett 13:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

For all I know, it might be one of you in disguise trying to get more votes. Anyway, I still don't buy that entire concept that unless it's written word for word, that it's not true. Next thing I know, you'll be telling me that I can't post a picture of a Duck and claiming that it's a Duck unless the word "Duck" is located on the picture. Duhman0009 (talk) 17:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

First off, randomly accusing people of sock puppetry is probably not a good way to win them over. Second, on Wikipedia, we don't do voting. And you don't have to copy sources word for word. In fact, it's discouraged. Paraphrasing sources is fine, but drawing a conclusion that is not in the source is not allowed. ColdFusion650 (talk) 17:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, folks, please don't take this war of edits too seriously. The wiki article is about a piece of FICTION. There are umpteen interpretations of time travel and associated paradoxes that have been bandied about since the days of H.G. Wells. One of the most often cited is that there could be an infinite number of parallel universes, depending on what forks in the road of history are taken. So please don't get agitated about whether or not a difference between T2, T3, and TSCC are continuity errors. Let's try to keep this wiki entry unbiased, straightforward, and non-divisive. Fair enough? Trasel (talk) 19:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sourced criticism in major newspapers

I've returned some of the criticism that was deleted with no edit summary, or with misleading edit summaries. When major newspapers are printing criticism, and we source it, it deserves to be included, especially as users are adding glowing reviews. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. ColdFusion650 (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Then why are you cutting sources and content? As in the other criticisms, or praises, it's relevant to say what the criticism or praise is, and as so many newspapers have now covered the same criticism, I think it's relevant to include them as sources, both to show how widely the issue has been covered and due to additional info in the different articles. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the first way was basically a direct quote from the article, but not in quotes. That's plagiarism. Calling Lena Heady emaciated is what Wikipedia calls POV. Everyone else calls it biased writing and loaded language. Second, the Guardian article didn't add anything other than to say, "Oh, yeah, and them too." ColdFusion650 (talk) 03:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

ColdFusion, "emaciated" was in quotes, the other part of it was briefly paraphrasing the debate. I think you need to look into what plagiarism is. Please stop revert-warring and removing sources. You are also using misleading edit summaries, posting that you're "adjusting a source" while also cutting content and other sources. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 04:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Two complaints in one day. Most of the time its only two a year. Anyway, I'm not removing it because I don't like. In fact, I'm not removing it. It's still there. It's still sourced. I just made the sentence shorter. You realize how long the sentence was before? After reading it, I felt tired, like I just ran a marathon. What information have I removed? I cut two sources down to one. Besides, the LA Times article requires registration to read, which means most people can't read it in the first place. Wikipedia has a policy against writing content that is biased, and that sentence is it. It's Headey bashing. It is obviously written that way. We are the Fox News of encyclopedias. We report. You decide. Just saying that she has been criticized and why and then linking to the article is enough. ColdFusion650 (talk) 04:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The LA Times article, when I click the link, says "Please Register or Log In The story you requested is available only to registered members." It's not like I can make this up. As far as misleading edit summaries... what? ColdFusion650 (talk) 04:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring T3 completely?

So, Sarah Connor died in 1997, yet we see her alive and well in 1999. Then we travel to the future, 3 years after judgement day was supposed to have happened and the world is still in one piece. It seems like they are completely ignoring T3, but is there any official word on this? The article states that T4 will be tied into the TV series as well, does this mean it will also ignore T3 and that T3 is just being completely retconned out? Uniqueuponhim (talk) 06:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The article states that they are ignoring T3, and cites it to an interview with one of the creators. ColdFusion650 (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Join the battle in my topic. Duhman0009 (talk) 11:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not a battle, and it's not your topic. ColdFusion650 (talk) 18:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Terminator 3 did not bother with basic math or research into the series history when determining the dates and ages given in the movie. The events of Terminator 2 took place in 1995, and yet Terminator 3 asserts that Sarah moved with John to Mexico, was later diagnosed with cancer, and died three years after learning she had it. The earliest possible date for her death given these numbers would be 1998. Ignore not just the events of Terminator 3, but the information given in it as well, as the creators of the Sarah Connor Chronicles have done, and all is well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.224.190.142 (talk) 20:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• Different timelines, and ones that keep shifting. That's all I can say of it. -- Riffsyphon1024 (talk) 04:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Source for ratings

ratings for heavy metal episode were incorrect in the article I find this source has the highest credibility... http://pifeedback.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/63310451 for references we should use this daily blog http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/newsletters/proginsider/index.jsp --195.250.222.164 (talk) 23:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

LA Times chart

I have used the Zap2It.com link for the LA Times chart only because I expect the LA Times to place its online version behind a subscription wall in the coming days (whereas Zap2It keeps its articles openly archived). I would prefer to use a citation for the LA Times since it's their chart and their judgement that the show is "on the bubble". Does anyone out there have a print version of the newspaper that can be cited instead? 68.146.41.232 (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Virgin1 promotion

What's the music used for the ad on Virgin 1? It was also used for various BFME2 and Sky Sports ads too. --01:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It's Gothic Power by Christopher Field. Kelvingreen (talk) 20:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Who keeps messing with the ratings?????

-Someone keeps messing with the ratings. Whoever is doing this, please just STOP already! -- MisterRandom2 (talk) 19:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Finally, a Continuity Error that no one can argue with

I started a topic a while back regarding a Continuity Error, but no one seems to believe me because it required actual research and people were using this as an excuse not to break the continuity of the series with the first 2 movies. I decided to let it fly because I knew that the series would screw something else that would be even more obvious.

Now the wait is over, the series blew it. In the episode that just played tonight (EP7), Sarah talked about the date on the tape that John saw when she signed the papers that would remove her parental rights, the year of that date was 1997. Now Terminator 2 takes place in 1995, so unless any of you are willing to say that the events in that movie took place in the cycle of 2 years (from when the T-1000 arrive until they break Sarah out of the metal institute), then the writers $#%&-up.

I appreciate the T1 and T2 references in that series, but they really didn't do their homework, putting aside T3 is one thing, but screwing dates from the previous movies and trying to state the the series is a sequel, then that's just wrong.

Anyone wishes to argue with me before I add this Continuity Error to the article?

Duhman0009 (talk) 03:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for adding this to the article. But for me personally, they already broke continuity back in episode 4 when Cromartie's metal head went through the time dilation device, breaking the major conceit in T1 that Terminators cannot travel through time without an organic covering. Annie D (talk) 04:05, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh ya, I forgot about that. Kyle did say that this was the only way the Terminators could travel through time. Duhman0009 (talk) 04:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The Terminator head had enough "flesh" on it to pass through the time portal. But the flesh burned off immediately after it entered 2007. And I noticed that 1997 error too. But it's already been established in the series that T2 happened in 1994 (they say so in the first episode). It's just a minor mistake that's not worth whining about. -- 134.154.122.221 (talk) 18:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

True about the head, I just watched in slow motion, he was already in the time portal when Sarah shot him with the big electric gun. His body was repelled but his head remained in the portal, de-fleshed. As for the date issue, I'll continue below. Duhman0009 (talk) 19:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

You'd still need to find some source to make this observation, or otherwise validate it. The problem is in avoiding original research and forming our own conclusions about material. You might be better off developing the text here, rather than in the article, and then adding it to the article when consensus is reached. Just a thought... -Ckatz^chat_spy —Preceding comment was added at 04:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

You sing an old song, but it's not going to work this time. All I need to find is a reliable source that states that T2 takes place in 1995 and that will be the end of it. It's probably somewhere in the movie, so I'll just pop this bad boy in my DVD this week and check it out for myself. Duhman0009 (talk) 04:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree; see in particular WP:SYN. You should find a third party reliable source noting the continuity error. Even if you find a source claiming T2 takes place in 1995, your inference, however true, amounts to OR. This may seem too strict, but think about it: if it's allowed then anyone can use Wikipedia to publish their personal opinions, and Wikipedia becomes a battle between people who disagree with each other's inferences, or disagree with the significance of each other's conclusions. WP:OR forces you to find some other, independent source that thinks your criticism is important, which increases the likelihood that it actually is important. I, for one, do not think continuity errors are important; a more consise answer to you woud be: "A Wizard Did It". Just enjoy the action and the beautiful actresses. Who cares about continuity errors.Fritter (talk) 17:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly my point. Who cares about minor continuity errors like this? You could always say that Sarah was just mistaken - anyone could make that mistake (today I accidentally put down on a piece of paper that date was the year 1998). They've already established in the first episode that T2 happened in 1994 (the 1999 Agent Elison said something on the lines of: "Your fiance killed a man five years ago"). So, there's no need to get all excited and start shouting "Ooohhh! Error! Error!" -- 134.154.122.221 (talk) 18:51, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

If you're talking about when James Ellison told Charley Dixon about Sarah after she and John left him, then that's wrong. I just watched EP1, he said she blew up Skynet 2 years earlier, making this 1997, not 1994 (series takes place 1999). Also, since you kind of broke the ice with the mockery here, I might as well do the same by accusing you of fanboyisim, I mean after all, you're entire posting history as to do with this TV series, so perhaps your opinion is in regards of preventing negative aspects to the article. Duhman0009 (talk) 19:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't really recall that part. I thought she meant "two years before the original Judgement Day (which takes place in 1997)." What was the exact line? -- 134.154.122.221 (talk) 19:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

From the opening credit, 9 minutes and 30 seconds, James Ellison tells Charley Dixon this after he tells him that Miles Dyson is dead: Your fiancée firstly escaped from the Pescadaro mental hospital, blew him apart 2 years ago Duhman0009 (talk) 19:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Guys, guys, guys.... I think we should all just calm down and treat this issue like Star Trek's infamous "How did Kahn and Checkov recognize each other?" issue. Or for that matter, in the Horatio Hornblower miniseries - the characters talk about King George II, when at that time it was actually King George III who was around. Or like that timeline error made in BSG's "Downloaded" - which was subsequently fixed in the DVDs. Just let it go for now. Maybe it'll be dealt with in the DVDs - or they'll correct it in future (hopefully) episodes. -- MisterRandom2 (talk) 00:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

What? Dude, can you use examples that most people can refer to cause I have no idea what they hell you were talking about there :P. Getting back to the main subject, part of Wikipedia's existence is to give out facts about things, people and events, both good and bad. A large portion of people still consider Wikipedia to be a joke, let's not give them some more fuel for the fire by trying to leave out the negative aspects of things and make everyone here look like fanboys. Duhman0009 (talk) 00:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

But we're not talking about sources from a reliable website, we're talking about the media themselves, the T2 movie and the TV series. Like I said, I'll watch the movie this week and if I see anything indicating that it takes place in 1995, I'm putting it in the article. Duhman0009 (talk) 18:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is my take on this, and as always, you must all nod in unison. Continuity errors in general are trivia. They are not important, and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Second, the series is internally consistent. They have always referred to the events of T2 as happening in 1997. Who's to contradict them? No matter how much anybody watches T2, they will not find a direct reference to the date. On a computer screen, it says John is 10. After some extrapolating with is birthday that is seen on the screen, it could be late 1995 or early 1996. Now, 1996 is suspiciously close to 1997.

The characters never actually say 1997. They say 2 years before 1999. However, has anyone ever heard of rounding error? If it was 1 day before John's 11th birthday in T2, and it was 2 years 5 months and 29 days after T2 in the 1999 segments of the show, it's possible that they could actually get within a few days of each other. I haven't done the actual calculations. But the "two years ago" remark can be attributed to them rounding down from 2 years and some change. So see, I can rebut OR with my own. That's why we need a definite source not only for 1995, but also for 1997. ColdFusion650 (talk) 19:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Futon Critic

Hi -

It appears that parahraph that quotes the futon critic should be removed. According to the attributed piece,

Please note: As a courtesy, please do not reproduce these comments to newsgroups, forums or other online places. Links only please.

I think that we qualify as "other online place" but I'm not sure if technically he can request that we not attribute his critique. It does mention as a courtesy so I was thinking we ought not to go against he explicit wishes. Perhaps if we removed the direct quotes to the piece and just describe what he has to say without quoting from his article directly, that would be better? JPotter (talk) 06:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for replying so quickly. I saw the text you're referring to, but I don't know if it it applies to Wikipedia in this context; Futon Critic gets quoted and referenced fairly often, and I've never heard of any requests from the site to remove material. However, I will do a search and see if the subject has come up previously. --Ckatz^chat_spy 06:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Other Characters

Somebody stop undoing the character info on Cater, getting locked in a bomb shelter. Mg.mikael (talk • contribs) 02:29, 1 March 2008

That was removed for a reason; please read through the edit history to see why. Further to this, please stop removing referenced material - you have repeatedly deleted properly referenced criticisms. We have to present a balanced view, not just positive spin. (Feel free to ask if you have questions about this, rather than reverting. Thanks.) --Ckatz^chat_spy 03:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I looked through the history and I see no reason why info on Carter was removed.

Petitions

I've removed the recently added text regarding a petition for a second season. First off, there's been non announcement from FOX regarding cancellation or renewal. Secondly, as with other series such as Jericho, we don't write about fan campaigns until they become noteworthy. At this point, a forum posting trying to raise support for a petition is just not notable. --Ckatz^chat_spy 05:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)