Talk:Jack the Ripper

This article uses British English dialect and spelling. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. Note: The official spelling of the formal name is correct with the -ize ending, which had been discussed in the past.

Archives
January 2003 – February 2007 02.07 – 10.07 10.07 – 11.07 11.07 – 12.07 12.07 – 02.08

Latest anon edit:

"One author of note who focused his writings on Jack the Ripper in the late 19th Century was Guy B.H. Logan."

Just to say that I've never heard of Guy B.H. Logan and a google search of the name yields no results. Anyone else have a clue to this enigma? Colin4C (talk) 19:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

No cite means no inclusion. This article has seen enough fallout that it is clear that without citation and consensus, no contentious edit will be added tot he article. I would suggest that you invite the editor who added it here to discuss the citation. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 23:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Very simple and obvious edits being removed for no reason?

One more time (though it has been explained and ignored by Arcayne more than once already in his rush to blind revert any edits I ever make to this article):

• The site jack-the-ripper.org is nothing but spam. It has no encyclopedic content. If you go to the victims page, for example, all it has is photos and names saying they died. The site has SIGNIFICANTLY less information than this very article. WP:EL rules are pretty clear on this, we don't just add links to add links, they have to have encyclopedic purposes, and this site is primarily Google adfarming with info copied and pasted apparently from this very page.

• The Fairy Fay section needs a cite for who claims it was based upon the song. There is no reason to link to the lyrics of the song, as that provides no source for saying anyone claimed that that's where the alleged victim's name came from. When I add a tag request WHO said it, either provide text saying exactly who did or leave it, don't just remove it in a blind revert.

Bottom line here is I have just as much rights here to make edits as anyone (and if WIkipedia were set up to give more weight to people with demonstrated knowledge on a topic, much more), and a calculated and demonstrated history of blind reverting all of my changes simply will not fly. He's adding spam and removing calls for cites, for crying out loud. Can't get more basic than that. DreamGuy (talk) 16:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Can I suggest that you keep strictly to the article content and can I also suggest that everyone gives each other the consideration they all deserve. As we are all aware, these revert wars just end with the article being protected. Kbthompson (talk) 16:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I just got here. I was out blind-reverting lotsa articles and misinterpreting Wiki policy to a bunch of reporters while running over a busload of nuns and cute little puppies. Gosh, destroying Wikipedia single-handedly is hard work. :P

I have no problem with DG editing in this article, so long as he somehow learns the value and rules of seeking consensus with his edits. Deleting information with but a speculative edit summary does not constitute discussion. Deleting precisely the same information after it has been restored less than two weeks later is another example of seeming contempt for his editors (or admins, if his User Talk page is to be considered a true viewing of his unhappiness). In short, it is unreasonable to expect editors to tolerate edits from someone who has all the social graces of someone raised by wolves. Therefore, discussion is key. It doesn't matter if he is the DaVinci of the subject, his weight of contribution is going to always be weighed against his ability to work well with others. Its a community; if he wants to be a luminary, he needs to seek another venue.

The Jack-the-Ripper.org site is not a spam site. DG's seeming disallowance of this particular site seems less than genuine, especially when one considers that he admins a JTR site, and we neither have no way to know if the site in question takes away visitors to his site nor do we know if he personally endorses hs own site. In fact, we do not know what site he admns for; that said, it would seem prudent for him to recuse himself on matters concerning external JTR links, unless he is willing and prepared to disclose what site he actually admins on. He doesn't have to do it here. As Kbthompson is in fact an admn, he needs only disclose it to him, and Kbt can evaluate the legitimacy of DG's contention with the contested site. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I don't "admin" a JTR site, and these sorts of attacks are just more of the nonsense Arcayne is known for: bad faith, blind reverts and the assumption of wrongdoing because of personal bias. This also seems to be a particularly bad faith claim coming from someone he had previously argued that Colin's edits should take precedence because he supposedly has written for the field. No evidence of Colin having written anything or being respected or so forth has been demonstrated, and if Arcayne were interested in fair dealings instead of just attacks he should have asked Colin what his biases were. DreamGuy (talk) 20:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Also for the record, the claim it is unreasonable to expect editors to tolerate edits from someone who has all the social graces of someone raised by wolves is especially ludicrous coming from Arcayne. DreamGuy (talk) 20:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

If everyone stuck to the article and its content, life would be a lot more pleasant for everyone. All parties, just be civil and stick to the point. Kbthompson (talk) 17:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

ps www.jack-the-ripper.org doesn't strike me as particularly authoritative. If you can find another reference, that would be better. Kbthompson (talk) 17:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

pps OK, an external link, not a reference. I don't see ads, but then I block 'em. It should be fine, let readers make up their own minds. Kbthompson (talk) 17:55, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It isn't a question about making up their own minds, it's a question of following Wikipedia policies. Wikipedia:External links is pretty clear on this issue. We don't link to things willy nilly, they have to have an encyclopedic purpose. Being added by someone for self-promotional purposes (added by an anon IP as only edit), having more ads than content, not having any more information that the article itself already has are all reasons which on their own would mean it shouldn't be here. Put them all together and there's no justification for keeping it here. Please start following the policies you claim you want to follow instead of just deciding to oppose anything I do, no matter how obvious it is. DreamGuy (talk) 20:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you are not the sole authority in determining what sources are good and which aren't We are, and the consensus thus far is to allow the reader to evaluate the strength of the website themselves EL is clear on a great many things, but it requires someone who can interpret the rule correctly; in order to use it effectively. Jack-The-Ripper is just as flawed as the other sites (one of which you have previously claimed to web-admin for - which seems to represent a significant conflict of interest since you haven't declared your special interest); all have ad space, and all have accurate and inaccurate (or speculative) information. We either allow them or we don't. EL is pretty clear on that, too. Both links follow current policies.It doesn't matter if an anon added it. Were that anon a sock-puppet, for example, then the edit would matter. Are you contending that the anon was a sock, DreamGuy?

Allow me to restate the question, DreamGuy, as I might have the titling wrong. Do you or do you not work in some capacity for a JTR website? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 20:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Funny how you pretend that my doing anything in the field is supposedly a bad thing while Colin claiming to have done something means you support him. First off, you should welcome people with actual expertise in the field and not try to run them off. Second, I never said I was an admin of any site, so I don't know where you came up with that. Third, anybody who is anyone in the field could be construed as "work in some capacity" for a website.... that would be thousands of people all told. Fourth, why aren't you loudly demanding that Colin not be allowed to edit, since you claim he is some sort of expert (which I sincerely doubt, based upon the content of his edits and comments over the years). All of my edits here have always been done following Wikipedia policies, including conflict of interest policies. Most importantly, the link in question does not come ANYWHERE CLOSE to following EL policy, which you'd have to admit if you actually read the thing instead of just blind revert anything I do. Why is it that you have not let a single edit of mine go by without blind reverting it for more than six months... even the ones you later were forced to admit on the talk page that you agreed with but only removed because you don't like me? You've got a serious problem here, and all your wikilawyering and flailing around and denial won't fix it. DreamGuy (talk) 20:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

That is not what I asked, DG: do you work in any capacity for a JTR-type website beyond occasional user contribution? If so, you should disclose who that website is - if it is a cited source, you need to stay the hell away from defending it or criticizing others. It seems an easy question to answer yes or no to, without slipping into semantics. As for never admitting that you work/do work for a JTR website, are you really, really sure you don't want to retract that statement? There are enough folk who know you do work at one.

Secondly, the reason we don't give Colin as much of a hard time is that he is polite and is willing to work with others to find both consensus and sometimes compromise. Additionally, his block log is empty, so he's never been blocked for 3RR, gaming the system, edit-warring and whatnot. Were he uncivil and rude, he would likely find the Bucket o' Good Faith to be about as empty as you are finding it now. As it is, he doesn't use any Essjay crap to push his viewpoints through.

Now, if you want to discuss why you think the link doesn't follow EL policy, we can do that. You need to prve it doesn't, and we need to be able to agree that it doesn't. Its how we do things here. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 20:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Colin certainly is not polite, nor is he willing to work with others to resolve any disputes... we just have a bunch of people who have decided to gang up and support each other's edits despite the fact that they very clearly violate policies. I think what we need to finally do here is get some new blood: people with a clue both about the topic and, preferably, how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Because the people who don't even pretend to care about either have taken over, and it's just sad. DreamGuy (talk) 19:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

DG, you haven't ever shown how the edits are violating policy. You have just stated they do without backing that statement up with any reasoning. Wikipedia's guidelines and policies are not concrete, so a simple statement that edits violate them isn't enough. And it would help a lot if you--and everyone else--would refrain from making major changes to the article while this discussion is ongoing. If you really want to work with other editors, discussion (minus the comments on other editors) is the first place to start. --clpo13_(talk) 19:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It's been shown. If you refuse to read the policy and refuse to read my explanation, or if you do read both and refuse to see how utterly obvious it is, that's your issue, that doesn;t mean I haven't "shown" it. DreamGuy (talk) 01:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Just to say that, as tragic crocodile tears are a drip-drip-dripping and threatening to deluge the immediate cyber-vicinity, that I for one have a clue about the topic and the wikipedia. If you look at the edit history you will see that I was the first editor on this article to include the absolutely basic information about where the bodies of the victims were found. This had apparantly not seemed worthy of mention by editors in the previous 4 years the article had been in existence, which is sad...snivel...[gets onion out]. Colin4C (talk) 22:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, OK. That sure shows a lot. Probably not what you thought it would though. DreamGuy (talk) 01:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with DG on the "Fairy Fay" thing. I've never come across any suggestion that the name comes from the song, and if someone wants to make such, then they should provide a source. A link to the lyrics is not a source--the fact that the song exists is not evidence that the claim is true. revmagpie

From Richard Jones.

I sincerely apologise if I offended you in any way by posting a link to my site, but please could I stress that my site www.jack-the-ripper.org is not spam, nor is intended as spam. I am a ripper historian, and have been for over 25 years. I have in fact published several books on JTR, as well as creating a documentary dvd which has been well reviewed on Casebook.

My site is most certainly not a cut and paste of this "very article" but is the beginning of what I hope will be an online resource concerning the Jack the Ripper crimes. I admit the victims page lists the victims, as this page does, but that is because they were the victims of Jack the Ripper. However, they all link through to a far more detailed synopsis of each one of the killings, as well as looking at the wider context of the murders.

The google ads are simply a way of funding the photographs on the site, all of which were acquired or taken by myself or by Sean East. Few of them appear in this article and those that do are victim photographs that we actually took in Scotland Yard's Crime Museum.

The sections on the Common Lodging Houses, Prostitution in 1888, the Police Officers on the case are all original as indeed are all the sections on the site.

Once again I do apologise for any offence that I might have caused and assure you that I am in no way attempting to spam, but am trying to create a valuable resource. It is very much in its early stages and a certain amount of trial and error is inevitable.

Best of Wishes

Richard Jones —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.172.38 (talk) 09:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Mr Jones, to begin with, you have nothing to apologize for. Your posting of the link without hamming it up here in the Discussion page (or tearing down another link) is to be commended. Also to be commended is your coming forward to explain more about the site. In fact, on behalf of most of my fellow editors, i apologize if you felt insulted by having your website characterized as spam. Sometimes online, there is a tendency by some contributors to act like bulls in a china shop, gaining imaginary courage from the relative anonymity of posting here in Wikipedia. Don't take it seriously. And please, feel free to contribute to the article as you will - someone interested in the subject matter for over 25 years cannot hurt the article at all.

I would encourage you to set up an account at Wikipedia (not using your real name, of course) and begin contributing. This allows for your good edits to accumulate and your reputation as a solid editor to grow. If you need any assistance in getting started, please do not hesitate to drop me a line. Welcome to Wikipedia. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

To the contrary, if Richard Jones would take a look at WP:COI and WP:SPAM he would find that adding a link to his site here is absolutely improper. Regardless of whether he is capable of writing good content or not (his book was pretty decent), that does not excuse linking to a site with very basic information of less content than this very article. Now, certainly, there are certain pages he has written that might be worth sourcing... the page he has on one of his many sites with [www.jack-the-ripper-tour.com/jack_letters.htm info about the Ripper letters] is quite good... but this guy is making money off his tours and feeding people to a secondary site for commercial purposes. DreamGuy (talk) 01:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

With respect, he isn't hawking the site; he's offering it as a source of valid information, which two other editors have already commented on as having. Every JTR site listed in the article is making money in some way. At least, Jones steps up and says, 'hey, this is my site - I can answer any questions about it that people have'. He isn't saying, 'my site is better than someone else's.' This is in marked contrast to other editors in the article who are suspiciously reticent about revealing the JTR website they are affiliated with while at the same time tearing down those sites that offer similar info. The up-front guy is going to win over the sneaky guy. Every single time. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 03:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, as I said, er, somewhere on this page, many websites Wikipedia considers reliable (e.g. news websites) contain advertisements. As long as a website isn't dedicated solely to advertising a product and as long as the information it contains is freely accessible (not subscription-based), it's not blatant spam and therefore shouldn't be discounted without discussion. As for the conflict of interest problem, well, that can easily be solved by having another editor add the link should it be removed. --clpo13_(talk) 03:35, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Which I am almost positive has happened a few times. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 03:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The Channel Five paragraph

What an active article.

Anyway, I think the Channel Five paragraph should be removed:

On November 20, 2006, the British television channel Five released an E-FIT-generated photo illustration showing what the researchers affiliated with the documentary believe the serial killer may have looked like...

I don't think this is notable. In the long history of Jack the Ripper speculation, one particular 3D sketch created by one particular TV show surely doesn't mark any actual advance forward in identifying Jack the Ripper, the silly policeman's quote notwithstanding. The "Computer Enhanced!!" aspect of the 3D sketch is meaningless. Tempshill (talk) 21:16, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I noted this before. Your actual contention is that it is inaccurate. That a tv special was made, a sketch created and silly statements issued by policemen are all notable. Again, the threshold for inclusion is citability, not truth. I would recommend that you find info specifically characterizes the television program as bollocks (or whatever), and we can provide balanced info. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 00:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't try to tell him what his contention is. I also don't think it was notable. The fact that it was bollocks was already included, but that's really not enough in this case because even bringing it up unfairly biases people toward thinking it has any credibility at all in the field, and it doesn't. It was just a cheap gimmick for a documentary. DreamGuy (talk) 19:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I have restored the paragraph. It was referenced and NPOV, giving the pros and cons of the proposed identification. Not the definitive answer to the mystery of JTR's identity, I grant you, but that shouldn't be the criterion of inclusion here. Colin4C (talk) 13:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

You should go look up WP:UNDUE weight rules for the exact criteria. Even mentioning something so ridiculous gives it more attention than it deserves. The image has no historical or factual basis. It was created as part of a publicity campaign for a documentary. We have notability and NPOV rules here, and both are majorly violated by wasting any time on that. DreamGuy (talk) 01:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. We aren't in the business of biasing people one way or the other, and we aren't going to disinclude info because it happens to include all the trappings of tv. As well, we aren't her to play elitist parlor games; all have equal standings in the eyes of Wikipedia, Ripperologist or not, professor or not, money or not. Let's avoid that altogether, as it will only lead to furthr unpleasantness. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, every time you put it back you are, in fact, in the business of "biasing" people. And, frankly, no, not everyone has equal standings as far as the policies of Wikipedia are concerned. If you don't follow them, you aren't contributing. And, frankly, considering that you tried to claim Colin's edits had to stay because he was allegedly "published" in the field (which again is extremely doubtful, based upon his edit history here), you were the one preaching elitism. I am preaching Wikipedia policies and making an encyclopedia. DreamGuy (talk) 01:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

DreamGuy is continuing to remove this paragraph, as well as the jack-the-ripper.org site. I've requested that he discuss it here, but he appears to be ignoring me, as my first request was on the 11th and his most recent edit removed the exact same content. Still no reasons given, though. --clpo13_(talk) 22:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's give him the chance to wise up and approach the discussion. No one is going to get tired of reverting his undiscussed non-consensus edits, so he will either edit his way into either an RfC/UC or AN/I or an eventual topic ban. So long as we follow the protocol for dealing with disruptive editing (and not be goaded into reciprocal bad behavior, which would only distract admins from a highlighting of the DG's pattern of behavior), the problem will more or less get resolved. Stay cool, and simply report him if it gets to be more than 'a flea on the dog' to coin a phrase. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 23:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I've made the mistake of edit warring with DreamGuy, which resulted in admins ignoring his tendentious edits and focusing on me. Following the rules is always a good suggestion. --clpo13_(talk) 23:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Clpo13 claimed "Still no reasons given, though."? Hello, reasons were given. The fact that you and a couple of others simply ignore them doesn't mean they weren't given. DreamGuy (talk) 01:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Where were these reasons, then? I can't ignore something if I can't find it. --clpo13_(talk) 01:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

If you can't find it then you clearly have not even looked. The difference between that and ignoring it outright is virtually nonexistent. DreamGuy (talk) 04:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of coherence, it'd probably be best to limit this discussion to the section below, since it's on the same topic. --clpo13_(talk) 04:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Museum in Docklands

From 15 May, the Museum in Docklands is mounting an exhibition of the original (Scotland Yard) evidence in the case, from the National Archives. Kbthompson (talk) 14:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

But will they will be selling Ripper T shirts and souvenir mugs? Worth a look I guess - though no doubt there will be one or two dodgy looking Ripperologists hanging about the building trying to entice one into completely futile arguments... Colin4C (talk) 15:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

There you go, then - quisque pro omnibus.  ;) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Nah, I'd probably take the train ... 8^) Kbthompson (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Gah, punishment - surely a product of an English education...- Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Apparantly a new book entitled 'Jack the Ripper and the East End' is being published in association with exhibition: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper-East-David-Spence/dp/0701182474/ref=sr_1_43?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205187087&sr=8-43 Colin4C (talk) 22:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring again!

Can I remind everyone that it not good to edit war - that just gets the page protected so no-one can edit it. Can I also remind people to discuss changes. Those particular changes appear to have reached some kind of consensus for inclusion - that's only amongst five-six people, but bullying reverts don't get anyone anywhere - so, talk about it before taking them out. Oh, and remember 3RR! Kbthompson (talk) 16:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 20:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's it. I'm not touching the article again, but DreamGuy reverted to his preferred version once more without discussing it. If someone else wants to talk to him, feel free, but I'm not going to get into a tussle with him (or anyone) so long as my RfA is going on. I did notify him of the discussion, however, as a courtesy. --clpo13_(talk) 01:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the people blind reverting me would be the only group engaged in "bullying reverts". And the problem is, it has been talked about, with very clear links to the policies in question, but those are ignored. We can't ignore Wikipedia policy just because a gang of people who do not understand policies or the topic this article is supposed to cover decide their main strategy is to blind revert every edit I make. This isn't making an encyclopedia, this is just sheer gaming the system by trying to fake a consensus -- a real consensus looks at the edits, compares policies, and makes an informed decision. There has not even been the slightest attempt to do that from certain people in the last six months or more. People seem to be treating this more like some online game instead of a serious attempt at making an encyclopedia. DreamGuy (talk) 01:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

If there has been discussion before, would you care to link to it or provide diffs? Also, consensus can change over time, and policies are not set in stone. That said, what policies are being violated? --clpo13_(talk) 01:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you not even look at the talk above? There's hardly anything on this page. Asking me to provide diffs to show something that's easily visible on the very page you are asking for it strikes me as quite peculiar. DreamGuy (talk) 04:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

So when you say "it has been talked about before", you're referring to discussion not even a month old? That discussion never ended. This is a continuation of it. No consensus has been reached recently. --clpo13_(talk) 04:19, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

You stated on my talk page that you disregard policy. Policy is super-consensus. Actions that violate policy overrule the desires of people who want to ignore the site's rules. The link in question is the most clear-cut example of WP:COI and WP:SPAM you could ever hope for, as it was posted by the owner of a site and the site has next to no info, Google ads, and exists to promote his commercial interests. DreamGuy (talk) 14:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I said no such thing. I said "our opinions on how much policy matters differs greatly". Nothing about that says I think policy doesn't matter. You drew that conclusion from my words, and it's completely false. Policy does matter, unless it gets in the way of improving the encyclopedia (again, WP:IAR, which, ironically, is a policy). Consensus can always overrule policy. If the participants in a discussion decide a link isn't spam or evidence of conflict of interest, then it isn't. --clpo13_(talk) 19:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

With respect, Cipo is right here, Dreamguy. If you want the edit you keep insisting upon, convince us of your viewpoint. After you are reverted once, youneed to realize that edit summaries- and snippy ones at that - are not going to get you the results you are seeking. In fact, reverting without discussion would eventually have some negative repercussions for you.

Consensus is not a static quality, unless the same majority remains unconvinced of the minority viewpoint. If something is being added against the rules, take the time to point out precisely what rues are being avoided. I think you get extra points if you can do so with a minimum of vitriol. Consider this your opportunity to address these points. Take the time now, since your edits/reverts aren't making any headway. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, you have proven yourself unwilling to llisten to any edit I make simply because it is me making it. You also in the past have explicitly said anyone with experience in the field ought to be ignored because they are all wackos. Your actions here are simply kneejerk obstructions to any improvement to the article. I have made discussions, so your continuing attempt to falsely claim I am reverting without discussion is clearly yet another attempt to try to create justification for disciplinary action under more false accusations. You (and one or two buddies who blind revert out of revenge for edits on this and related articles they didn't get to keep) are the ones violating a whole slew of policies. The difference is I don't bother taking the time to report you to try to get you in trouble, while you spend all your time trying to come up with ways you can try to justify filing some false report or another (one of your clueless buddies repeatedly falsely accused me of violating 3RR recently). You aren't interested in having an encyclopedia article that follows Wikipedia policies, it's clear you're just out to play games and try to win at any cost. DreamGuy (talk) 14:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

You have been asked to confine your comments to edits, and not editors. Your edits are not being singled out for reversion. They are being singled out because you choose to add in precisely the same edits over and over again without discussion, or specifically pointing out how they violate policy. Simply throwing out an acronym isn't good enough. We all know the policies and guidelines; you explaining how a particular statement/link/etc. violates them allows us as your fellow editors the opportunity a view into how you are interpreting - or misinterpreting - those policies and guidelines. You need to explain to us why we all of us are wrong, and not just say we are wrong and go back and revert back in a version that aesthetically pleases you.

Frankly, addressing your numerous uncivil, unsubstantiated (and largely inaccurate) accusations would be tantamount to making this discussion page all about you yet again, and that is simply boring. Your choices have negatively impacted your working environment here in Wikipedia, and that isn't because of some grand conspiracy to "Get Dreamguy" but because you've attracted enough negative editorial and administrative attention to yourself that you are now finding that the Wellspring of Good Faith can in fact flow a bit shallow. Own your mistakes and move forward. Continuing to blame everyone else for your misfortunes is simply going to marginalize you even further from the Project.

This is the last time I want to address your behavior here. The next time you act uncivilly or attack another editor or disrupt the article, you will simply be reported to AN/I or AN/3RR, depending on which policy or guideline you violate with no further warning. The article is about Jack the Ripper, not Dreamguy. Do what you need to to ensure it - and this discussion page - stays that way, please. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Steven Knight conspiracy theorist

Sorry, I should have checked the discussion page (or even just thought about it for a second), but it didn't occur to me that this article would have so much edit warring going on. Anyway, I removed the additional qualifier 'conspiracy theorist' from the description of Stephen Knight. I am aware that he had a theory about a conspiracy-but the term is pejorative, as it implies that the person so described is wrong. I'm sure that Knight is wrong, but I think that we can do better than this. The explanation about a Masonic plot makes the phrase redundant anyway.FelixFelix ^talk 21:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

This article is edit-war central. Even Jack the Ripper himself would hesitate to dip into this particular piranha pool IMHO. Colin4C (talk) 13:17, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Conspiracy theorist author is an accurate and nonbiased title for Stephen Knight. He's the one who wrote the major book about the Royal Conspiracy Theory, which is what it's called, so there's no way getting around that description. DreamGuy (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Conspiracy theorist isn't a pejorative unless it's used like one. In this situation, it's perfectly descriptive: the man theorizes about conspiracies. --clpo13_(talk) 01:38, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, a 'conspiracy theorist' isn't just someone who has a theory about a conspiracy, they also have to be wrong. Which is why I tend to remove the phrase when I see it. Its almost always redundant (as with Stephen Knight in this case, where the passage decribes his theory about a masonic plot) and is nearly always used pejoratively to imply disapproval. And the royal conspiracy theory is what the WP article is called, I note previous editors objected to that title. FelixFelix ^talk 09:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Felix on this, Cipo. If someone called me a conspiracy theorist, he'd be picking up his teeth spread like bloody chicklets from the gutter. In almost any instance, it is a pejorative, lik the nutters who see the Gnomes of Zurich or the Vatican behind the curtain of all world events (FNORD). - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I can certainly see how it can be used pejoratively. I'm guilty of using it that way myself. But I still don't think it automatically implies they're wrong. Unproven, perhaps, but not necessarily wrong. At any rate, given the concerns, I'm willing to let it slide. I suppose it is a bit redundant, considering the man is mentioned in the context of what would be considered a conspiracy theory. --clpo13_(talk) 20:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Which policy is violated?

There seems to be a revert war going on about policy violation. I don't understand. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the accusation gets thrown about a lot. Hopefully, the accuser will cite the specifics of what is violating policies and how. In the absence of proof, I'd say utterly disregard it. Good of you to ask, though. :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Information was already provided. I say we utterly disregard those editors, like yourself, who knowingly pretend no specifics were given to try to justify their own bad behavior. DreamGuy (talk) 14:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Or, you could simply answer the question about how a certain policy was violated. That would be the civil thing to do, instead of attacking the person. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

New Information - help add it please

There is information on Jack the Ripper that is not mentioned on the page. It was found at casebook.org but here is the exact address that should take you to the information I am specifically talking about: http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-left.html It discusses the details of Polly Nichols's post mortem body, quotes Dr. Llewellyn, and ponders the possibility that Jack the Ripper was left-handed (he cut his victims' throats left to right, etc). I would edit the page myself but I'm not sure how to use the source, etc and want it done properly (as I'm sure everyone else does as well). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.207.111 (talk) 00:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

That's not really new information, and not particularly noteworthy either. It's just the opinion of one person. Certainly the idea that the killer was left handed has been thoroughly debunked by most authorities on the topic over the years. DreamGuy (talk) 14:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

With a modicum of respect, is it in fact a single opinion that the Ripper was a leftie? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 15:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Arcayne. Yes, pretty much. Dr. Llewellyn was the only person who examined the bodies and came to the conclusion that the killer was left-handed. Every other doctor who participated in a Ripper autopsy either disagreed with Llewellyn or said it was impossible to tell. Any belief or claim that the Ripper was definatively left-handed can be tracked back to a single source--Dr. Llewellyn. Revmagpie (talk) 17:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

In that case, Dreamguy may be correct in that this might not be notable. Allow me to pose a question: should it be mentioned that the initial doctor of record thought the killer was left-handed (ie, is it notable, as he was in fact the first doctor of record)? Or is the weight f subsequent doctors enough to drown out the other voices that claim otherwise? I ask, because this sort of notability will be used to judge other things in the article that have similar claims against the weight of opinion. Is a single, professional scientific view notable in and of itself, or does it require concurrence for the purposes of this article? Is Llewellyn notable enough on his own? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, on the one hand it's somewhat notable, because the erroneous assumption that the Ripper was left-handed has entered the common lore of the case (for instance, Jack the Ripper routinely appears on lists of "most famous/infamous lefties", etc.). However if it's going to be mentioned at all, it should also be stressed that Llewellyn is a minority view, both then and now.Revmagpie (talk) 03:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It should also be mentioned that although Llewellyn was a doctor, he was by no means a forensic specialist, so while his opinion might be more "scientific" than the average joe of the time, it doesn't really justify the assumption that it was particularly "expert"--the only Ripper doctor who approaches that standard was Dr. Bond--and even he was learning as he went along. The whole concept of forensics was relative new and there was virtually nothing in the way of establish procedure.Revmagpie (talk) 03:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, we should wait to get more input than just two or three editors, since there are something like 5-6 active in this article currently. I think that while Llewellyn's notability is intact (he was an actual doctor who had his hands in a Ripper victim), his assertion that the killer(s) was(were) lefties is decidedly less so. Countering that is the fact that this assertion - fallacy or not, minority opinion or not - has wriggled its way into lists like the one you mentioned (and should probably cite for good measure, please). My opinion is that if it were included, it should be stated in the same sentence that it is in fact a minority opinion not agreed to by the majority of the forensics folk who have since come late to the autopsy info. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The lists I mention appeared for instance in several editions of this publication: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Lists. Also many early books and articles about the Ripper erroneously assume a left-handed killer--an error that can be laid squarely on Llewellyn's doorstepRevmagpie (talk) 02:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• It should be mentioned, but with the emphasis cited in the above discussion. Jack1956 (talk) 20:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I also wanted to point out to the anon user that there is only a finite amount of evidence and info specific to the Ripper/Whitechapel killings. The same cannot be said, unfortunately, for the number of Ripper books out there. A lot of the same information is used over and over again - sometimes evaluated, and sometimes just taken at face value while taking a back seat to the presentation of yet another theory of the crime and/or the culprit. That the killer being left-handed has come up a few times isn't really surprising. If more than one doc or investigator at the time had suggested it, that would be worhy of more than a mention. That Llewelyn noted it as the first medical professional of record to comment makes it notable enough to comment, but not worthy of much more than that, to my reckoning. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 03:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Image discussion

I am wondering if we could discuss the infobox image currently being used in the article. Recently, someone helped me locate the link to an image that I was thinking might be a better choice. It is located here. As I understand it, the original image is old enough (c. 1888), so it is copyright-free.
Might I get some polite input on the subject? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Both images seem good to me. But what would you say makes the newer image better? --clpo13_(talk) 19:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

It puts a face -at least a face that people thought should belong - to the killer. It's also more engaging. Honestly, the first time I saw the Puck image, I thought it was some sort of carnival or circus illustration. It didn't seem to fit the mood of the subject. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 07:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Good points. I'd support changing the main image. But something needs to be done to get that Photobucket watermark off of it, unless there's another version somewhere. --clpo13_(talk) 19:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• How about this [1] (see right) or this [2]? I know I've seen the image in a couple of the better books on the subject. Jack1956 (talk) 19:20, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The first example seems a bit more flexible in terms of sizing it to the article. Now, while the picture is pretty nifty, what exactly was it supposed to portray (at the time)? As well, knowing exactly when and where the image was first published would be perfect for licensing and summary. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 02:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The caption for the second example says "A Suspicious Character", which implies, to me, that the authorities were suspecting anyone that seemed shady, especially since the picture adjacent has a caption saying "Homeless" and depicts a detective/policeman/vigilante accosting a homeless guy. I've never seen that picture before now, so I can't say for certain what it's really about, or even what licensing information it has. --clpo13_(talk) 03:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the group of men on the right are members of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee (note their smart clothes) patrolling the area for suspects. The suspicious looking man on the left is evidentally some guy whom they suspect of being the Ripper. Perhaps it is indeed him....Colin4C (talk) 08:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• The image is one of two from 1888 captioned 'With the Vigilance Committee in the East End'. It is taken from the Illustrated London News for October 13, 1888 [3]. Jack1956 (talk) 10:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I think we have the information we need. I don't mind uploading it, but I think that Jack has earned the right to do so - he did a lot of the grunt work in finding it. Once uploaded, I will check it over for licensing issues that might pop up. I am thinking that maybe the Puck image can also be used, lower in the article (maybe in the Murders section).

Oops, it look like Jack is a lot more efficient than I thought - it's already uploaded. I'll adjust the summary accordingly. :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to call for 'ayes' and 'nays' on the image substitution. I say 'aye'. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• 'Aye' from me. Jack1956 (talk) 20:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh for Pete's sake... the image in question is NOT of Jack the Ripper. The image currently at the top of the article IS, and it's in color to boot. There's no reason to change the image. If you want to put the image in the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee article, or in that section of this article, feel free, but there's no reason at all to make it the main image. DreamGuy (talk) 21:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

And I should also add that we discussed this image previously on this talk page, and it failed then for these very reasons. I believe Arcayne was part of these discussions previously, so it seems odd that he'd be acting like this was a wholly new suggestion. DreamGuy (talk) 21:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

New participants, new discussion. --clpo13_(talk) 22:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

And it bears pointing out that the current image is NOT of Jack the Ripper, either. As neither image can authoritatively identify Jack the Ripper, the image that communicates the subject material best should lead. I am not saying that we should do away witht he circus-style one from Puck; I am just saying that this one is better suited to describing in the art of the time what some people thought the killer might look like. I dig that this picture is your preference (for all I know, you uploaded the image in the first place), but this one seems to work better. First rule of Wikipedia: if you aren't prepared to be edited mercilessly, Wikipedia isn't for you. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 15:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• I also like this image for the lead as opposed to the current, for the reasons cited by Arcayne. --David Shankbone 01:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

In response to DG how do we know that the fellow slinking away in the hat is not Jack the Ripper? Seeing as the latter fellow was never caught it could very well be him. I think ambiguity as to identity is at the very heart of Ripperological enquiries - so the picture is a very apt one for this article. Colin4C (talk) 16:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't particularly like either of the cartoon images. To me, they speak of Dickens and Conan Doyle. This is an article detailing the murder of prostitutes in one of the poorest areas of 19th century London. It also details the popular mythology surrounding the identity of the murderer. I see the photographs as the most appropriate, though least palatable, candidates for prominence.

Spam Link?

Just read some of the supposed 'spam link' that Dreamguy keeps deleting. It seems very good. The section on prostitution, for instance, goes beyond the usual tabloid cliches you find in most Ripper books and I liked the bit about Inspector Abberline. Colin4C (talk) 17:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe if it were explained how the link supposedly violates multiple policies, it might help to clarify the resistance to its inclusion. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The 'policy' on external links is quite clear, they are permitted if consensus on the talk page is for inclusion. Something is not SPAM, or conflict of interest if it is discussed. The gentleman who added the link had the good grace to discuss their addition, let's give him/her the benefit of doubt by not calling it spam and discuss whether it should be retained. Keep the discussion to the topic, not the editor. Kbthompson (talk) 19:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

That said, wouldn't the conflict of interest go away if someone else added the link? And it seems that it's only considered spam because it has ads in it. So do hundreds of legitimate online newspapers that are used as sources on Wikipedia. --clpo13_(talk) 19:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

My main point was meant to be that, having read a bit of it, I thought it was a valuable contribution to the subject. There is so much re-hashed rubbish on the internet that it is a pleasant surprise to see something worthwhile. The info on prostitution connects with some other articles on the wikipedia I have edited concerning W.T. Stead and the Eliza Armstrong case. Sorry, I'm just thinking aloud here.... Colin4C (talk) 20:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Thinking aloud is fine, Colin - in other fields, we call this an aspect of Brainstorming. It often leads to new ideas. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 22:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Why it is a spam link (and violation of WP:COI and WP:EL) was included above. Continuing to insist that it has never been explained is a pretty odd strategy to be making. The person who put it there even admitting to running the site. But, hey, unfortunately after all the blind reverting I don't expect them to look at it rationally later and admit they were wrong, so they need to justify to themselves why it belongs. DreamGuy (talk) 22:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

And I have explained, twice, why it isn't spam or a conflict of interest and therefore warrants discussion before being removed. Discussion has occurred, with the end result that most parties feel that the link should remain. --clpo13_(talk) 22:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, DeamGuy, if someone says they cannot find your previous comments, it is up to you to provide them again. If you could be troubled to re-explain for us your specific issues (why a certain link is spam, why an image is a copyvio, etc.), I think we would all appreciate it. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 23:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

GA Assessment (2008-03-19)

There is one big problem with this article from the very start. Its title is "Jack the Ripper", yet I find a "The Ripper Murders". It is understandable the criminal has almost become synonymous with the murders, but it is an incorrect name for the article at hand. There is another article dealing with the murders, The Whitechapel Murders (1888-91), but this Ripper article has became more detailed than the Whitechapel article regarding the murders, becoming a WP:CFORK issue. This is a big factor in my decision; it indicates the article has gone beyond its scope, losing its focus.* I recommend splitting the article into one dealing with the case in general (dealing in detail with the murders, and investigation, and legacy), and one dealing with the Ripper himself (dealing in detail with the suspects, his characterization, legacies specific on him). No doubt there will be a certain amount of duplicated content between the two; but one article would deal with the duplication in general and the other in detail, and vice versa. Regardless, the following is my assessment of how the article stands without factoring the name into account.

Prose

• As the subject deals with events taking place in London, I advise adopting British English. If this was the step taken, then a few American English has slipped through the editors' work. "Analyze", "capitalize", and "rumors" should be "analyse", "capitalise", and "rumours".
• Sentences in the lead could be shortened or made clearer. "The victims were earning income as casual prostitutes" is practically the same as "The victims were casual prostitutes". "Newspapers, whose circulation had been growing during this era" -> "The growing newspapers". "[W]ere first strangled in order to silence them and to explain the lack of" -> "were first strangled to silence them, which would explain the lack of".
• Consistency is a good thing but instead of sticking with "born on", a few victims are stated to be "born circa" and "born c.".
• One sentence paragraphs (The Ripper letters and the Jack the Ripper in popular culture) are discouraged. Please merge or turn these sentences into minimum three-sentence paragraphs. The Suspects section can list the most prominent of suspects with short backgrounds.
• Avoid very long sentences. "This became standard media practice with examples such as the Boston Strangler, the Green River Killer, the Axeman of New Orleans, the Beltway Sniper, and the Hillside Strangler, besides the derivative Yorkshire Ripper almost a hundred years later and the unnamed perpetrator of the "Thames Nude Murders" of the 1960s, whom the press dubbed Jack the Stripper." is a particularly long "snake" which is also slightly confusing. Break it up.
• Do not question the reader as in "The Pinchin Street Murder" paragraph. State it as the article bringing up a question on the identity of the murderer or a quote. *
• Do not use "(see above)". The illustration's caption should be stating the picture and its relevance to the article.
• Do not use "and/or".

Factualness *

• Avoid "weaseling" the way out. "Perhaps more interesting were ...", if they were not interesting, why should they be mentioned here? "[P]erhaps genuine, either by period or modern authorities", those authorities did consider them as genuine. To state the dispute of their authenticity, bring in the opposing forces' views instead of using "perhaps".
• What is the relevance of Albert Bachert's claim to the presidency of the committee (Investigation)? Was he a prominent man of society then? Citation?
• Although there are inline citations used, several other cases require them, such as:
  • The Goulston Street Graffiti messages (both of them)
  • The other authors besides Stephen Knight in the Graffiti section (it is also weird to see Stephen Knight being outed here)
  • The "Saucy Jack" postcard, curiously the only one among the three bulleted to not have an inline citation
• It is advised

Images

• Free images of the victims should be moved to the Commons, or have their rationales as public domain properly sectioned or templated. Refer to Image:Marthatabram.jpg for an example.
• Whitehall mystery image's caption should expressly state its origin *
• Caption for "The Nemesis of Neglect" should follow that of the Punch cartoon criticising the police, and state it is a commentary on the society's neglect of the poor. *

I am failing this GA nomination. If the critical issues(*) have been addressed, please renominate the article at WP:GAC. If there is a disagreement with my decision, please bring it up for discussion at WP:GAR. Thank you. Jappalang (talk) 07:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

While I think it was unwise to nominate this for GA just yet (a peer review would have garnered us essentially the same information, if not from a wider range of editors), Jappalang makes several god points. What say we get cracking, and do the fixes recommended? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 07:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh, "god points". That made me laugh. Anyways, I agree. This article definitely needs to be fixed up. --clpo13_(talk) 07:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I support Jappalang's judgement that the The Whitechapel Murders (1888-91), and Jack the Ripper are separate areas of concern and should have separate articles. I will try to beef up the former article in line with this judgement, so that this article can more strictly concentrate on the great mystery man of all time: JTR (and his legend). Colin4C (talk) 10:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I thank the reviewer for a thorough review, personally I would have failed it for a lack of stability 8^). Some decision needs to be reached about the treatment of the murders, the Whitechapel murders are a superset of the Ripper murders. To my mind, contemporary Whitechapel still needs attention - it's not wrong, just a little offset; and I think the structure needs attention (what the reviewer calls 'refactoring'. Although premature, I think that was worthwile, as the reviewer has not been involved in the usual arguments. cheers Kbthompson (talk) 10:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

(←dent) You know, until Jappalang said it, and Kbt reinforced the message, I completely missed that we've been focusing on the killings and not the killer him/her/themselves. If the acts of the killer are notable in and of themselves, then they should be in a standalone article, and the article about the killer should focus upon the person extrapolated from the crimes (if uncaught) or the fuller view of the killer based on not just the nurder information, but accounts on who the person was outside of the killings (much like there are articles for the tenures of many US Presidents in addition to their personal articles).
I agree with Kbt and Colin that a more attention to the Whitechapel murder article would benefit this one, and be able to link info about the actual killings from there, so as to not replicate info. As well, discussions as to the identity of the killer would allow us to more closely connect this article (acting as transit hub) to the Ripper Suspects article, and only note the suspects given the largest amount of concurrent agreement from Ripperologists and scientific folk.
I actually now feel good about the GA eval (I had been disappointed that it had been nominated too early), and now think - through leaner compartmentalization between the related articles that this will work out a lot more effectively. 'Til now, the diferent editors working this article might have been working from differing points of view on how the article should look. We don't have to do that anymore. This article doesn't have to be a clearinghouse for all things JTR; it can be a info portal of sorts from the killer to his deeds, possible identity and maybe even Victorian England. Thoughts? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I changed over to British English those terms mentioned by Jappalang (analyze, capitalize and rumor), but I haven't been to ol' Blighty in a while, so the mental muscle I used to use to switch spellings over has atrophied somewhat. Could one of our resident limeys (heh) address this issue more fully than I? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I've also addressed the circa issue, standardizing all of the daes as "c.", as in Skippy von Thud, born c. 1842. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 20:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

"Its title is "Jack the Ripper", yet I find a "The Ripper Murders""' -- Wikipedia naming conventions are to use the most commonly known name. In this case it's Jack the Ripper, pretty clearly. I don't understand what that's even trying to get at.

But, as he said the other article is a WP:CFORK violation, and I agree, I have redirected that article to this one. It's the same topic, two competeing articles is a major violation of policy. DreamGuy (talk) 21:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Not everyone agrees with that sentiment, DreamGuy. Two editors other than I agree that the Whitechapel murders article is not a content fork, as evidenced by the discussion on that article's talk page. What's more, the reviewer was referring to this article as the WP:CFORK issue, as he goes on to say that this article has lost its focus.

To elaborate: this article is about the murderer: Jack the Ripper. His murders, however, are a different but related topic, especially since there isn't widespread agreement regarding the murders actually committed by Jack the Ripper. --clpo13_(talk) 21:59, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Accordingly, the redirection has been undone in the Whitechapel Murders article, which still has a great deal of content to it that differs from this article - content unseen by using hte redirect. It might be worth discussing merging the two articles, so that future redirects don't overlook content from one or the other.

Something else we might want to consider - after such a merging - is renaming the article to The Whitechapel Killings or the Ripper Murders, and place numerous redirects in place (Jack the Ripper and the other title) so it all comes toa single article. This way, we are not endlessly debating cntent forking and the like. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 06:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that the Whitechapel Murders article - in an augmented and improved version - should be the main one with a Jack the Ripper article as an (important) subsidiary. The Whitechapel article can state the facts leaving the Ripper article to cavort gayly in speculations about which murders are 'canonical' or not. Ripperology has its place in a democracy but I don't think its peculiar concerns should pervert an encyclopedia. Colin4C (talk) 08:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

After having read the Whitechapel Murders article, i guess I agree with you; were the murders a Venn diagram, the Ripper murders would, while far more sensationalist, be a subset of the larger series of murders. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 14:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have started to improve the various articles on individual Whitechapel Murder victims - a lot of which were in a very shoddy state and unreferenced etc etc.(Colin4C (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)