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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tankred (talk | contribs) at 23:08, 14 May 2008 (→After the poll: comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Ground rules

This page is an experiment, as part of my (Elonka's) involvement with the ArbCom-designated Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. As I write this, there seems to be a dispute involving Hungarian and Slovakian articles. The dispute is de-centralized, and is taking place in edit summaries, userpages, talkpages, and administrator noticeboards. The dispute seems to involve multiple editors, and some anonymous accounts. Since it is extremely difficult to follow everything that's going on on every page, I have created this central page, and recommend adding a pointer to this page from all the locations of disputes.

I am an uninvolved administrator in this discussion, I have no preference for either side. However, I do insist that:

  • Participants remain civil
  • Edit wars cease
  • Anyplace that an article is reverted, that an explanation either be posted on that article's talkpage, or a pointer be placed on that article's talkpage, which links interested editors to here.

It is my hope that with a centralized point of discussion, that we'll be able to reduce the confusion, and those editors who are genuinely interested in having civil discussions towards determining consensus, will be able to do so.

Please feel free to start any threads here that you want, and invite anyone that you wish.

--Elonka 06:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator boards and other threads

Active threads

Archived threads

Bratislava topics

The Central Europe history is very complicated. Bratislava was parts of Hungary 1000 years, but now it is Slovakia capital.(treaty of trianon) Slovakia's own history is very little.Slovaks wrote Bratislava's history on the wikipedia (Bratislava/history chapter, History of Bratislava, Bratislava Castle) and these articles are very one-sided. Because these topics the Slovak nationalist's guarded area, putting NPOV-templates out to them would cause a serious scandal. A good solution would be later if these articles would receive totally protected status, and neutral administrators (not Slavs) could rewrite this themes.Nmate (talk • contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 09:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe all this upheaval at wiki is not about Central Europe's complicated history, but rather about a user not familiar with how Wikipedia works. Despite all the warnings on his/her user talk page, User:Nmate keeps making childish jokes about living persons, saying nasty things about non-Hungarian nations, and attacking other editors. Here are some examples:
  • He/she abused Wikipedia's article to claim that Slovakia's prime minister's "true confession" and "self-criticism looking back on the Fico cabinet's activities" is a 17th-century outlaw.[1] Wikipedia is not a place for political commentaries. Please also note that he/she called an IP a "clone" of an established user and a previous unproblematic version of an article "serious vandalism" in his/her edit summary.
  • He/she makes inappropriate jokes about other editors, calling another user "he Czech lion which defending his Slovak siblings"[2], suggesting that two editors are followers of a neo-Nazi leader Marian Kotleba[3] (this was completely uncalled for and especially disturbing for me as my grand father was in a concentration camp), and calling other people's work "dubious Pan-Slavic propaganda".[4]
  • He/she said: "There is a Hungarian joke that whole Slovakia's only history is possible to send in a short mobile phone's text messsage."[5] Maybe it was supposed to be funny, but it has offended many people here.
  • After being warned agianst hate speech, he/she continued in the same tone: "the important historical events should be there and so Slovak historical event is not exist before the 20th century".[6]
Many people have tried to talk to him/her, but it did not work. All the deleted warnings (up to NPA4 if I remember well) may be found in the history of his/her user talk page. I feel a stronger action is needed to show him/her that Wikipedia has some rules that make our work more efficient and pleasant. Tankred (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As for the first point, he cited a source for the most part. If you don't agree with it, you can modify it. You just removed it, although Prime Minister Fico really talked about Jánosik as a role model which is definitely relevant. Your edit may be criticised just as well.
All other cases happened before a Wikiquette Alerts discussion (26 March) for which he's already been warned, presenting these as new cases is a bit misleading.
Let's not forget how he received some of those warnings. He's a relatively new user, so asking him to read WP:CIV would be OK I think.
Regarding offensive edit summaries someone else has also a thing or two to learn despite being an experienced user. Squash Racket (talk) 17:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For "Bratislava" "(...)has been declared on October 28 in Prague, the leaders of Bratislava (where the majority of the population are Germans or Hungarians, see below) want to prevent Bratislava from becoming part of Czecho-Slovakia and declare the town a free town and rename it Wilsonovo mesto (Wilson City) after US-president Woodrow Wilson.", aaaaand: "(...) Legions on January 1 1919 (only the left river bank; the right river bank, not belonging to Bratislava yet, was occupied only on August 14th). It has been chosen as seat of Slovak political organs over Martin and Nitra]]; the government moved to the city on 4–5 February. On March 27, the town's official new name becomes "Bratislava" - instead of "Prešporok" (Slovak) / "Pressburg" (German) / "Pozsony" (Hungarian)." from History of Bratislava#20th_century - so wherever anyone restored "Bratislava" in pre-March 27 1919 context had falsified history, and highly compromised Wikipedia's credibility, and to say something rude and true to talk about: vandalized those particlular Wikipedia pages. --Rembaoud (talk) 18:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When talking about present day city's history, it's common to use its current name. It's not a falsification of history; it's a matter of convenience. See, for example, London.--Svetovid (talk) 13:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Names

(previous discussions and poll can be seen in Archive 2)

Proposed naming convention (after poll)

This is a proposed naming convention for places in Slovakia. It is meant to be a specification of guideline nr. 3 (about the use of a name in other articles) of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Given the long shared history of Slovakia and Hungary, it is desirable to mention both the Slovak and the Hungarian name in several cases. This depends on the (historical) context in which it is used:

  • Before 1918: the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. "Eperjes (Prešov)" or "Prešov (Eperjes)".
    • In biographies of clearly Slovak persons, the name should be used in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively
    • In biographies of clearly Hungarian persons, the name should be used in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively
    • In other cases the order of the names, and which name is used in the rest of the article is arbitrary. If a dispute arises, the name most used in the given context in reliable sources (see WP:NCGN) should be used first, and the other name(s) should be listed in parentheses at the first occurrence
  • After 1918: use the Slovak name. Use Hungarian (or other minority languages) at least once for places with significant Hungarian (or other minority) population, either in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively, or in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively. Significant is more than 20% of the population by contemporary census.
  • For places that changed name (e.g. Štúrovo was called Parkan before 1948): follow the rules above, but use the contemporary Slovak or Hungarian name as the primary name, and also add the modern name as an alternative. Example: for a biography about a 19th century Slovak from Parkan/Párkány/Štúrovo, use "Parkan (Párkány, present Štúrovo)", and later "Parkan" exclusively
  • For places that have another widely accepted (historic) name in English (e.g. Pressburg for Bratislava before 1919): use that name, and mention the modern name and relevant alternative names at the first occurrence.

Poll

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Voting has started at 20:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC), and ran until 11 May, same time. The result of the poll was:

Accepted modifications: B and E. Rejected modifications: A, C (with a small margin), D and F.

The following modifications to this naming convention were open for voting:

A. Add the language for the alternative names, e.g. "Eperjes (Slovak: Prešov)".
B. Change "Between 1000 and 1918" to "Before 1918", and "Before 1000 and after 1918" to "After 1918"
C. Not only biographies of clearly Slovak and Hungarian persons, but also clearly Slovak and Hungarian organisations and events
D. For "others before 1918": use the modern official name (=Slovak) as the primary name ("Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively), unless it is established (and discussed and documented on the article's talk page) that a different name is widely used in the given context
E. For "after 1918": use Hungarian (or other minority languages) at least once for places with significant Hungarian (or other minority) population. Significant is more than 20% of the population by contemporary census. (the "biographies of clearly Hungarian persons" part is dropped)
F. No distinction between clearly Slovak and clearly Hungarian persons/biographies, all contexts before 1918 (or between 1000 and 1918 if modification B is rejected) are treated like "others before 1918"

Modification A (3-5, 3 ntr):

Support

Oppose

Neutral

Modification B (7-3, 0 ntr):

Support

Yes it does. Markussep Talk 06:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral


Modification C (5-4, 2 ntr):

Support

Oppose

Neutral


Modification D (3-8, 1 ntr):

Support

Oppose

  • What is the "others before 1918"? Btw if it is, what I think, than absolutely no, since this would preserve the status quo, the tons of anachronisms and history inventions, therefore putting this debate into a never ending loop. And do your really think, that this would not mean that in reality that you have to fight to manage "Bratislava" deleted and replaced with "Pressburg" in pre 1918 contexts, not speaking about smaller places? Clear no for keeping this[7] and such debates, or preserving the status quo around the articles. --Rembaoud (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I advise you to read the proposal again. "Others before 1918" applies to contexts before 1918 that aren't clearly about Slovak or Hungarian persons. If modification "F" is accepted, the "others before 1918" rule applies to all situations before 1918. Anachronisms are properly dealt with in the last two rules of the original proposal. Markussep Talk 06:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

  • Markussep Talk 11:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC). I did a little search in Google Books, comparing the hits for "Prešov" and "Eperjes" in combination with "Hviezdoslav" and "Kossuth" (both lived in Prešov/Eperjes in the 19th century) in English, and it's pretty much undecided.[reply]


Modification E (8-4, 0 ntr):

Support

Oppose

Neutral


Modification F (4-7, 1 ntr):

Support

Oppose

Neutral

  • again: what is "others before 1918"? --Rembaoud (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. "Eperjes (Prešov)" or "Prešov (Eperjes)".
    • In other cases the order of the names, and which name is used in the rest of the article is arbitrary. If a dispute arises, the name most used in the given context in reliable sources (see WP:NCGN) should be used first, and the other name(s) should be listed in parentheses at the first occurrence.
    • Modification D would strengthen this last statement to default to Slovak first until proven otherwise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • --Ruziklan (talk) 09:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion (continued)

Previous discussions can be seen in /Archive 2
I’ve come to this “experiment” by chance, but having dealt with this sort of issue before, I’d like to throw in my few halierov.
First, solving naming problems in the intro is easy; solving naming problems in the title is hard. Your convention should explicitly address article naming.
Second, there is a tendency to resolve these issues in a manner that “settles” issues between the contentious parties, but which loses track of the perspective of the reader and of non-specialist editors. Encyclopedias are not written for – and Wikipedia is not (for the most part) written by – subject-matter experts.
  • For the sake of the former, there should at least be an explicit rule that WP:ENGLISH takes precedence where the subject has a traditional rendering of a name in English (in either English-language scholarly usage or popular usage). Hence, “Béla IV”, not “Belo IV”.
  • Where names have formally changed over time, an article should clearly point out the “whens” and “whys” (and perhaps the impacts of the change). This is pertinent to explaining why a redirect got the reader to a “different” article. Certainly no article should become FA without it (where this is relevant) since this is a important part of its history.
  • Arcane rules relying on interpretations such as "clearly Hungarian" and "clearly Slovak" persons (et al) are rather opaque. This is particularly difficult before 1918 given the empire’s efforts to supplant local ethnicities with a more unifying imperial self-identification. It’s also a problem with individuals with multi-ethnic parentage. If these “clearlies” become the rule, then there needs to be a WikiProject (or other resources) identified where editors can go to find such expertise.
Third, in my opinion an historical or biographical article’s usage of place names should give preference to those in contemporary usage for that is the way most reliable sources will employ. E.g., an article on the Kingdom of Hungary or an event or person of that era should reflect the style of “Pressburg (modern Bratislava)” at first mention (as I have just done in Ľudovít Štúr); given the long use of “Pressburg” (or other long-used well-known name – as in the case of Byzantium/Constantiople/Istanbul), a modern source should explicitly mention “Bratislava (formerly Pressburg)”. Fifty years ago, the use of “Pressburg” was still well-understood among the general English-speaking populace, but nowadays it is almost unknown … and we are here to help people to learn.
Hope this helps. Askari Mark (Talk) 16:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Mark, thanks for your comments. The issue we're trying to solve here is not the names of the articles or the alternative names in the leads of the articls, since that's not problematic, and covered by WP:NCGN. Using the English name is the essence of that. This is about what name(s) to use in other articles, that refer to a place in present Slovakia. You'll see that the Pressburg/Bratislava case is specifically mentioned in the proposal above. Markussep Talk 12:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think what really could help here is The Encyclopædia of Geography by Hugh Murray. However its a bit hard to find, since it was printed in 1838 (eighteen-thirty-eight) so just a few copies left... --Rembaoud (talk) 22:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I support the "original" proposal, these ABCD things are just doing confusions. --Rembaoud (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"confusion" is not the purpose of the modifications, I like to think of them as "refinements" of the proposal. Note that ABCDEF are the results of the discussions above. Markussep Talk 12:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tankred raises some very valid points. In particular, as per the Constitution, "Slovak is the state language on the territory of the Slovak Republic", regardless of the fact that some regions are Hungarian-speaking. Thus, merely because a Slovak citizen happens to be an ethnic Hungarian (Pál Csáky for instance) does not mean the way we refer to cities he is associated with should change. Mention the Hungarian name in articles on the cities themselves, by all means, but there's no need to clutter up biographies in this way. Biruitorul (talk) 19:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let me reassure you: this proposal is not about cluttering articles with irrelevant names. Let's take Pál Csáky as an example: he was born in 1956 in Šahy. According to the proposal as it stands now (without modifications), and assuming he's clearly Hungarian, that means that the Hungarian names of places in Slovakia mentioned in this article should be added. If modification E is accepted, this only goes for places with a significant (for instance >20%) Hungarian population, like Šahy (Ipolyság). Markussep Talk 19:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying Hungarian names are irrelevant - they're in daily use in southern Slovakia. However, despite the fact that Hungarian can be used at the local level, Slovak names alone are official everywhere, and we reflect this in our titles for the articles. To me, Šahy is Šahy is Šahy, and if a Hungarian native wants to call it Ipolyság, a German, Eipelschlag, a Russian, Шаги, or a Martian, Klaatu Bara Nixto, that's his prerogative. However, at least until such time as Slovakia's language law or English-language usage changes, I see no need for a biography of a contemporary Slovak citizen (born decades after Austria-Hungary dissolved) to tell readers what he calls his hometown, a fact easily accessible to interested parties by clicking the link that says Šahy.
By the way, Csáky heads an ethnic Hungarian political party, so I'm pretty sure he's "clearly Hungarian". Biruitorul (talk) 21:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question (and not to sidetrack the discussion, I hope): can we agree to apply roughly whatever solution emerges for Transylvania, or must we then go through another discussion substituting "Romania(n)" for "Slovakia(n)"? I'd add a small proviso - Hungary controlled Northern Transylvania in 1940-44, so I'd use Hungarian names for that period. Vojvodina would be a little different, since Hungarian explicitly has official status there. Biruitorul (talk) 21:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not, this experimental page is explicitly set up, to deal with a very specific dispute as the name of this page also says this is related to Hungarian-Slovakian disputes. If you intend to participate here to influence handling of other issues, please don't this would open a can of worms, as Austrian ,German and various other users might want to follow suit each with their own set of specific articles and problems in mind. This would make this experimental dispute resolution almost certainly fail. Hobartimus (talk) 21:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have been learning that there were some other "experiments" on other ethnic disputes here and there, but called different names. Sometimes it was something like a WikiProject "collaboration", sometimes it was a "cooperation board". I've compiled a list of the ones that I've found so far at WP:WORKGROUP#See also, and (in my free time, heh) would like to take a look at the successes and failures of each, and try to come up with a guideline for new projects which incorporates the best practices of the older ones. If anyone knows of any other of these projects, please definitely add them to the list. And if anyone feels that there's a need for one that doesn't exist yet, by all means make one! Some of those projects were editor-made, not admin-made. You are more than welcome to be bold and start something new.  :) --Elonka 22:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Given that the issues surrounding Hungarians in Slovakia are basically the same as those surrounding Hungarians in Transylvania, I'd say "absolutely not" is a bit strong. And neither the Hungarians of Germany nor those of Austria (.05% of the population) exist in such important numbers, cover such appreciable areas, are as politically organised, etc, as those of Slovakia and Transylvania (again, Vojvodina excepted, but that's different). So if consensus is to stick to Slovakia only, so be it, but that seems rather counterproductive, as the situations are not dissimilar. Biruitorul (talk) 22:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Biruitorul, welcome to the discussion.  :) I've given some thought to this question, in my role as moderator, especially because earlier we chased away from other nationalities that were trying to bring an old dispute here. However, this is different, so my decision is that if someone wants to bring up issues that are not strictly "Hungarian-Slovakian" but do relate to Hungarians or Slovakians in similar situations, they are welcome to do so. If the discussion starts straying too far afield from the scope of this experiment, we can easily move the discussion to its own "experiment" page elsewhere. Which might actually be an excellent way of seeding new such projects!  :) --Elonka 07:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I agree with that principle: let's stay on the Hungary-Slovakia topic here, but keep in mind the results could quite easily inform a new initiative on Transylvania and to some extent Vojvodina: what we discuss on this page will surely be found relevant by editors more interested in Romanian and Serbian issues. Biruitorul (talk) 20:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed guideline is such a total clutter with an obvious POV (excuse my French) that I'm not going to say anything detailed at this time. Especially points 1, 2 and also quite 3 aren't very well thought; e.g. point 2 cannot be taken literally. Modifications C, D, E and F are written in a quite vague language. I'm afraid that if this will enter in force, greater scope of POV edits will be allowed by that and possibly we will open a can of worms. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 13:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(serious question) How about writing up your own set of guidelines? --Elonka 15:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1. I don't have time right now. 2. I don't feel like to start a new game about such topic. 3. My own words above are still valid; let me for example explain what is wrong with point 2: implying a Hungarian name all the way between 1000 and 1918 isn't correct, as although they ruled the whole country, Hungarian started to be an official language only from the 18th/19th century, so implying them in the 11th century is quite incorrect. As sometimes written documents are scarce at that time, it's better to use default than to create a messy mishmash. In any case, so long as the situation is explained, it's never wrong to use default (in this case, Slovak) names all the time, contrary to some claims of "history falsification". MarkBA what's up?/my mess 08:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If there are some modifications above that you agree with, and some that you disagree with, please add your name accordingly. You are also free to suggest your own modifications, and/or write a completely new guideline. --Elonka 09:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not agree with MarkBA. 1.Hungarians not ruled the country only but they are native population of the country also.2.Official languages of the country were the Latin and the German, but the Slovak was not at all between 1000 and 1918 3.Many settlements were not Slovak' names before the 20. century.4.There were settlements like their Slovak names changed three times in the 20. century. For example Tornaľa, Šafárikovo, and Tornaľa again or Parkan', Štúrovo, and maybe its name will be Parkan' again.Nmate (talk) 10:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The whole debate seems to be artificially skewed in favour of particular Hungarian editors. The Hungarian language and names were unimportant in writing, among the nobility and among other than Hungarian people, before the 18th century, so I don't see any need to include them specifically in other than subject's article. Maybe they should be included in parentheses when the name is first time mentioned.
And the accusation of canvassing was ridiculous. German and other editors should have a say in this indeed.
It's a common habit to use contemporary names even if we talk about the location in the past when the name wasn't used. Remember, this is an encyclopaedia for everyone. Therefore, using rules that will please a small number of editors but would go against a widespread practice would be a very unwise decision.--Svetovid (talk) 09:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So Britannica is wrong for using Hungarian names, but the guideline WP:NCGN (self-admittedly influenced by Tankred) is right... Squash Racket (talk) 13:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NCGN was created by a high number of respected editors after several years of deliberation. It is applied everywhere in Wikipedia and people in other "hot" regions (such as Ukraine, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Italy, etc.) are perfectly fine with it. If you want to change it, please go ahead and propose your changes at the convention's talk page. Anyone can do it. If you do not want to change Wikipedia's rules and want to edit Britannica instead, you should perhaps contact its editorial board. For us, Britannica is just one of many sources. It does not determine our policies here. Tankred (talk) 20:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if the countries you mentioned have lost 2/3 of their territory after 1000 years or not.
I also find it funny you talking about "several years of deliberation" and the next moment belittling the 250-year-old Britannica that the very independent and accepted WP:NCGN uses as a means to resolve disputes. Squash Racket (talk) 03:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here is also user conduct related. No amounts of guidelines have any effect on a certain type of user or he might even try to abuse the guideline to violate basic policy or simply circumvent it using IP sockpuppets, this is why some things need to done regarding user conduct as well. Hobartimus (talk) 08:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"I don't see any need to include them specifically in other than subject's article."--Svetovid (talk) 08:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need some of comments made in this summary voting diff? --Ruziklan (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You mean that comments should be in the discussion section and voting should only contain the votes? Hobartimus (talk) 08:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. I am fine with comments aimed at the matter of debate, but not with commenting on editors. That is why I have used formulation "some of comments". I am similarly concerned with the comment made just below as well. --Ruziklan (talk) 08:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to continue my debate here, I've expected that for my statements a bombardment would follow. Nice, really nice. To repeat, I oppose the guideline as whole because it's totally flawed with many, many mistakes. If it will pass, its effect will equal that one like to the Munich Agreement or of the Vienna Awards. And everyone knows why this guideline even appeared, just don't want to admit it: 1. to shut us up and 2. to give them a legal weapon which otherwise would not be available. Wake up from your dreams. Sorry, but I'm not interested in editing an encyclopedia where a group dictates you must do like this and this, otherwise you'll be jailed. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 08:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No need for drama, and dramatization. Also, be civil. And try to avoid favourite far right expressions and turns, like "they shut us up", destroy our country/culture, "wake up", etc. They are revealing you.-Rembaoud (talk) 13:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why do we need to make comments driven by emotions? I know that naming, in our region, is a sensitive issue, but we should refrain from negative statements. Personally, my view is that there is no point in "ócsárolni" (sorry, its in Hungarian, I cannot translate it, it means something like that "belittle") the other party. Our only purpose is to reach a consensus on naming. If we are not able to reach our purpose, third party readers will realise that the text of several articles will be changing day by day (minute to minute), reflecting regularly only the mainstream (or even extremist) views of one of the parties who are involved in ridiculous disputes followed by petty personal attacks. It would be disappointing and boring for them and shameful for us. Borsoka (talk) 11:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Borsoka, I couldn't agree more. Please everyone, remember this is about creating an encyclopedia. Let's focus on the audience of Wikipedia, and what they would expect to find in it. Markussep Talk 21:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some of my comments and questions with respect to comments in the poll:
A. CoolKoon doesn't understand the point of the proposal. Does this refer to the proposal as a whole, or to modification A? The point of "A" is to make it clear to readers that the two names refer to the same place in different languages.
C. Battles of the Kingdom of Hungary wouldn't qualify as clearly Hungarian events, since other nationalities (within the KoH) would be involved in them. I rather meant Slovak or Hungarian cultural organisations etc. "C" doesn't influence Slovak ministries, because they didn't exist before 1918. I don't see the relation between modification C and the NPOV policy, maybe CoolKoon can explain that.
D. Whether Slovak names were used officially before 1918 is not the issue here. They were used by the Slovak speaking population of the places. The main issue is which names would be expected by the English language reader. Since the places are widely known in English under their modern Slovak names, it would be very strange not to mention the Slovak names at least once (if modern names are different from contemporary ones, this should be mentioned).
E. Relevant alternative names can always be mentioned in the lead of the articles, according to WP:NCGN. I'm not sure whether everyone realises that "E" actually reduces the number of articles in which the Hungarian names should be mentioned. Markussep Talk 17:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right now I oppose the whole guideline per my objections above. Either rewrite it so it will conform to established guidelines and to the pleasure of both sides, or (almost 0% of chance) stop it. I guess some forgot this is an encyclopaedia, not some xyz website with who-knows-what. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 17:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not aware that this proposed guideline violates any established guideline, could you point out which one(s)? Some of the objections against this guideline you wrote above are vague ("not well thought", "cannot be taken literally" and "quite vague language") and if you want the discussion to go forward, it would help if you indicated what exactly is wrong with it.
The main point of this guideline is to end pointless revert wars about names of towns. Most of us here agree that both Hungarian and Slovak were relevant languages in pre-1918 Slovakia. Both languages were spoken by a significant part of the population, and the Hungarian placenames were widely used internationally in the past. And the main reason for me to include both languages: you're very likely to find Hungarian (or both Hungarian and Slovak) placenames in modern English books about (people or events in) pre-1918 Slovakia, and since the places are currently better known under their Slovak names, it would be awkward not to mention those. Markussep Talk 18:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Violates WP:NC (WP:NCGN). I won't explain why because it's clear. In detail, "not well thought" = slapped here because of someone's request and quite hastily done, e.g. point 2. If I would go more in detail I'd open a can of worms; "cannot be taken literally" = see my post above, the main problem is the changing political situation, in other words, political correctness, e.g. point 1 and its subs; and finally, "quite vague language" = parts, e.g. modification C or F, aren't clearly written. But the main problem is, that it is biased in many parts, like points above. Relevant, why not, but how to get the right balance? This one doesn't quite get it. But after my experiences here I know pretty well that any five-or-more tag team can push its own opinion without difficulties, so this one will be turned down as well (again, excuse my French). MarkBA what's up?/my mess 18:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You'd better explain it because it's not clear to me at all how it violates WP:NCGN. I don't understand what you mean with "someone's request", "quite hastily done" and vague references to cans of worms, political correctness and bias. If that was meant to clarify your concerns, it failed. Facts and arguments please. Markussep Talk 18:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It violates general guidelines, specially point 3 in my view and on top of that it goes against common sense. Hastily done = done without imagining possible consequences. Biased is mainly in that sense because it is very pro-Hungarian, and as such biased. If you want to gain neutrality, you'll have either to fine-tune it (e.g. points 1 & 2) or completely rewrite. By the way, if you want to propose such guidelines here, go and propose such for Burgenland, Zakarpattia Oblast, Transylvania and former Yugoslavia as well, or it could be viewed as unfair. My concern about tag-teaming still isn't resolved. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 19:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose the point of discussion is whether "Exceptions are allowed only if there is a widely accepted historic English name for a specific historical context" (quote from WP:NCGN rule nr. 3) applies here. I think it does. If you think merely mentioning a Hungarian placename in a pre-1918 context is very pro-Hungarian, then I can imagine that you have difficulty with this proposal in all its versions. Markussep Talk 19:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, you misunderstood the purpose of this comment. Repeating, the main point isn't about any existing guideline, but about this one. Mentioning, why not, but not in excessive measures this guideline would allow (btw, when we're discussing Hungarian, then why not German or Latin? Why not Polish?). If you'd like to gain at least neutral position from me, you'd have to trim it down or rewrite it. There's no other way, because in its present form it is unacceptable, for example, point 2 is flawed per my comments above. Do you finally understand what do I mean? Or should I stop trying? MarkBA what's up?/my mess 19:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't treat me like I'm stupid. You stated that this proposed guideline violates WP:NCGN, I quoted WP:NCGN to show that yours is not the only possible interpretation. If you think mentioning a Hungarian name (and German, or Latin, etc.) once in an article referring to that place is acceptable, the proposal including modifications D and F actually represents your point of view. Markussep Talk 20:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't speak about your intelligence when it's off-topic. Back to the topic: "others" is a bit vague term. It speaks about usage outside Slovak/Hungarian biographies, but what exactly is meant? Sometimes there could be a fine line. By the way, I think articles don't need name clutter when it's already shown at the main articles (in this case, of a city/town), and if I recall correctly each or almost each has them in some form. That's also one of the my reasons for opposing (shower of arrows). I hope it's clearer why I object to the current form. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 21:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose our little discussion is finished, because you object to the very essence of this proposal. Since it's only you that's against it (as far as I know), I suggest you write your own modification or proposal, or reconsider your opinion. Markussep Talk 21:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As you wish, but first, I don't have time to write guidelines and second, under current conditions it's almost impossible to do so for me. If I'd like to suggest a modification, at this time it would be only for point 1: from 1000 to 1918 is a serious mistake at least, as until 19th century Latin was officially used; it has nothing to do with ethnicity. That needs an adjustment. Probably the only point which doesn't need much to fine-tune is 4; by the way, if accepted, the original proposal w/out modifications is the lesser evil than the one with any of them. Points 2 and 3 would need some adjustment. MarkBA what's up?/my mess 23:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since the proposal doesn't use numbers, it's a bit confusing what you mean with "point 4" etc. I think you mean the first-order bullets, right (so point 4 is the Bratislava/Pressburg case)? The official language is not so relevant for our purpose: we use the names that are used in English. As I wrote yesterday, Hungarian names are widely used in English when referring to places in pre-1918 Slovakia. You know we should describe English usage, not prescribe it. I still have to see the first use of a Latin name as the primary one (except early Middle Ages and archaeological sites). Since you apparently don't have the time to write an alternative, I suggest you pick the "lesser evil" options. And if you have a valuable modification or adjustment for any of the "points", don't hesitate to discuss it here. As you may have noticed, the discussion here is relatively open and pragmatic. Markussep Talk 11:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Misinterpretation modification E?

How would this part look with modification E passing through?

Before 1000 and after 1918: use the Slovak name. In biographies of clearly Hungarian persons, or if the place has or had a significant Hungarian population, the Hungarian name should be added, either in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively, or in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively

Like this?

Before 1000 and after 1918: use the Slovak name. If the place has or had a significant Hungarian population, the Hungarian name should be added, either in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively, or in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively

So this would only mean the biographies part would be dropped? Just asking whether I should change my vote or not. Squash Racket (talk) 03:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct. And significant means over 20% of the population by contemporary census (as Tankred wrote that minorities over 20% enjoy some extra rights under Slovak law). Markussep Talk 09:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And what to do now? I think everybody misunderstood that point. Should we change our votes one by one? (Well, the definition also could have been a little bit clearer). Squash Racket (talk) 09:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How did you interpret it, before I explained it today? I'm surprised it could be interpreted otherwise. Markussep Talk 10:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
use Hungarian (or other minority languages) at least once for places with significant Hungarian (or other minority) population. Significant is more than 20% of the population by contemporary census shouldn't have been mentioned as this part won't change in the proposal.
The main part of that modification (dropping biographies) is at the end mentioned in parentheses. See all the votes (both sides) for that point and decide for yourself if it was possibly misleading or not. Squash Racket (talk) 12:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The way I wrote "E" was how the "after 1918" rule would be if "E" were accepted, and I added the biographies part in parentheses for extra clarification. It wasn't exactly hidden away, people really should have read it a bit more carefully. The only things that could possibly be misleading is that I added the 20% criterion for significance, and the option for other minority languages, that should/could have been in the original proposal as well. I expect that Septentrionalis knew what "E" meant when he voted, maybe Rembaoud was the first to make a mistake, and many followed apparently. I was surprised when I saw the votes for E (see my comment here), but noone replied on that then. Feel free to notify others about this possibly common misinterpretation, they may wish to recast their votes. Markussep Talk 12:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, these votes have been added in 10 days and the whole thing is soon over...
Feel free to notify others? Nobody would accuse me of votestacking? It's not likely that all voters would show up in the next two days anyway. Squash Racket (talk) 13:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Canvassing is not considered disruptive if it improves the quality of a discussion (see the guideline WP:CANVAS). In this case, I think it's allowable to inform voters of a possible misinterpretation, as long as you don't exclusively inform people who supported "E" in the poll. You can point them to the subsection I just created. Markussep Talk 13:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I am not able to follow the above discussion any more, because I got confused. Could anybody summarize the main points (not for me, for themselves)? I guess that you could continue making comments only on the proposals that are not sharply opposed by one of the parties involved (if there are any). Borsoka (talk) 15:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE to avoid confusion

You can find the ongoing poll and the discussion about it above the section "Preferences". Just to avoid confusion. Thank you. Squash Racket (talk) 03:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Preferences

My impression from the poll and our discussion is that we have reached a kind of a stalemate. Some editors strongly object to the proposal as a whole and there are also people strongly objecting to each of the proposed changes. What we lack is some middle ground acceptable to everyone. Perhaps we should start from scratch and try to find some simple rules by consensus (or at least acceptable to an overwhelming majority of both Slovaks and Hungarians). But I am not sure how exactly the preferences of the involved editors look like. Is there any middle ground? If you are interested, you can write down what you see as the ideal state, what you find acceptable, and what you find unacceptable at this point. Please do not use this space to persuade other editors or to react to their comments; we can do it later if needed. Let us just briefly indicate our own preferences at this point. Maybe there is some reasonable intersection we can build upon. Tankred (talk) 19:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My impression was that noone, except maybe MarkBA, opposes the core of the proposal: mentioning several names for places in Slovakia in pre-1918 contexts. That way the modern Slovak name is always mentioned, and the (contemporary) Hungarian name as well. I agree with you that the current official names should not be deleted, as has been done until recently, and I hope our proposal will put an end to that. Markussep Talk 20:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tankred

  • Ideal: My ideal would be a commitment of all editors to apply the existing rules as described by WP:NCGN.
If this proposal means, that Hungarian and German names should be forgotten, I presume that it would not be acceptable for many editors. Borsoka (talk) 20:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Acceptable: Personally, I would not mind having Hungarian geographic names mentioned along with the official ones if they are proven to be widely used in the given historical context by modern English sources. I would accept any name to be consistently used through an article if this name is proven to be widely accepted in modern English sources. If the current official name has this status, I would not mind having a Hungarian name mentioned at the first occurrence of the place in the text if the Hungarian name is also frequently used in the given context by English sources. Similarly, if the Hungarian name has the status of being widely accepted in English, the official name should be mentioned at the first occurrence. A comprehensive list of sources we can use to see which name is more accepted in English can be found at Wikipedia:NCGN#Widely_accepted_name.
  • Unacceptable: I have a problem with people deleting current official names altogether. Official names are used in English. I have also a problem with people inserting Hungarian names without showing any evidence that the name is frequently used in modern English sources in the given context. I have a problem with inconsistencies, namely (1) two different names used in the same article to refer to the same place, and (2) different names used to refer to the same place in the same historical context across articles. Tankred (talk) 19:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Your name

  • Ideal:
  • Acceptable:
  • Unacceptable:


Discussion WP:NCGN is bad, otherwise it would not been challenged all the time. Your ideal/acceptable is the "status quo" ("My ideal would be a commitment of all editors to apply the existing rules as described by WP:NCGN" - Tankred)- it would maintain the current situation, therefore it is pretty funny, when you demand/wish/ask for a moving to the "middle ground", when you declare the only acceptable conclusion for you is your corner faaar faaar awaaay from the "middle ground" :)

Modern sources in historical contexts? That is misleading. Contemporary sources wich are contemporary with the article's subject is the right solution. For example The Encyclopædia of Geography by Hugh Murray --Rembaoud (talk) 12:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that each of the towns, villages had its official Hungarian name 90 years ago; therefore the previous official name could be mentioned once in each articles. The historical context may help in some cases, e.g., mentioning "Óbuda" or "Altoffen" instead of "Aquincum" in an article describing the Roman province Pannonia would sound funny for me. Similarly, I would prefer "Blatnograd" instead of "Zalavár" in articles referring to Pribina's county in Transdanubia. I suggest that in articles relating to German people in Slovakia (e.g., Zipsers) we should prefer the German name, and similarly articles referring to Hungarian people (not to the Kingdom of Hungary) we could prefer the Hungarian name. Of course, the Slovak name should be mentioned once in the articles. Moreover, articles on the History of Slovakia could prefer the Slovakian name (even without mentioning the Hungarian and German names), but a clear distinction should be made between the "History of the northern parts of the Kingdom of Hungary" and the "History of Slovakia". The former articles should clearly mention the Hungarian and German denominations as well. Borsoka (talk) 20:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible to prove what is the preferred English usage? Borsoka (talk) 20:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As in other cases, we can look at relevant English sources, meaning major encyclopedias, articles accessible by Google Scholar, books indexed by Google Books, Cambridge histories, etc. Tankred (talk) 21:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After the poll

The poll has closed, and two modifications received enough support to be implemented in the proposal. Before we can start implementing the rules, we need to make sure that the proposal as it is now, is widely supported. And of course there must be room for corrections, if the rules don't work out in practice like we want them to. So, how should we continue now? Markussep Talk 21:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be nice to hear what exactly each of us wants. If you are interested, you can use the thread above. Otherwise, we can blindly propose any changes and a number of editors will always veto them. If they do not say what exactly they want, I have no idea if there is any space for consensus. If people are interested, I would love to learn more about their true preferences in the thread above. And then we can take the intersection as the basis for new rules. After that, we can also negotiate what we are willing to give up. I think it would be better to reach some negotiated consensus that to vote about different things, hoping that our particular ethnic group will prevail here and there. What do you think? Tankred (talk) 22:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like a more fact-based approach. It's not very interesting to Wikipedia what we, a couple of editors who happen to be interested in the subject, would like. I think the main issue is what the reader would expect, and that's what's commonly used in English literature about the subject and reference works. I'd propose to do some research on English usage, and modify the rules accordingly, if necessary. Markussep Talk 14:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My reading of this poll is slightly different. Since MarkBA voted en bloc against all the proposals, the results for B should be 7:4 and for E 8:5. Anyway, I am not sure if we can declare any of the proposed points to be "accepted" because polls are not majority voting, they should show the degree of consensus. In this case, the poll has showed that there is no consensus. Let me quote from Wikipedia:Straw polls: "A poll is a survey (a measuring tool) which determines the current state of a situation, with respect to consensus. It doesn't form consensus. It merely measures it." Since we do not have any consensus here, we should negotiate one. Tankred (talk) 21:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
MarkBA's "vote" (he didn't actually vote IMO) wouldn't change the results. I don't think we need 100% consensus, which would be very difficult to achieve. Markussep Talk 21:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
After much debate, we arrived now to the implementation phase. I think it would be best if this would begin by Markussep editing a few articles according to the rules to see how things work out in practice. Hobartimus (talk) 22:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I can do that for a few articles (starting with some of the User:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment#Affected articles), and I will announce it here if I run into difficulties. Meanwhile, as proof (or refutation) of what we've assumed here, I would like to see examples of which names are used in English books about the concerned subjects. I don't have access to books on Slovak history, biographies etc. (except what you can find on internet and google books), so maybe you (plural) can help. Markussep Talk 14:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just "transformed" Ľudovít Štúr and Anton Bernolák, see if I made any mistakes. Markussep Talk 18:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any problems, please continue. Hobartimus (talk) 19:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And Pavel Jozef Šafárik, Juraj Jánošík and Lajos Kossuth (only a few places). Markussep Talk 19:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nicely done maybe we could set up a system like with the French communes to check what's done and what's ahead? Nothing that elaborate something a lot simpler would do here just to see where can someone pick up things. Maybe like do all biographies starting with A-G in one go something like that. You propably know a lot more about this stuff though, how to do things like this. Hobartimus (talk) 21:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, it's a lot easier for French communes because there's a well-defined number of them, and there are lists of them available. Maybe there are good categories or lists to work with, like Category:Slovak people or List of Slovaks and if that doesn't include ethnic Hungarians that lived in what is now Slovakia, part of List of Hungarians. Just copy those lists to a project page and start working ;-) I have to warn you: I only meant these edits as examples, I don't have the time to work through all those biographies. And I'd like some response from the community before we start changing everything. Markussep Talk 21:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, just asking, hope you'll have a little time for a few more, in the future. Hobartimus (talk) 21:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I notice that in the poll, there were certain "camps" that were always on opposite sides. One possible way to proceed, is for each "side" to appoint a spokesperson, and then let those two people engage in a one-on-one conversation, to see if they can find a compromise. Off the top of my head, I would suggest Tankred and Squash Racket, though you are free to choose whomever you like. --Elonka 04:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as editors are not always online, I think everyone will just comment when dropping in. Nevertheless if we decide to continue this way, I think Hobartimus is a better choice, he has dealt more with the naming issues. Squash Racket (talk) 04:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So I did some test changes: [8], [9], [10], [11] and [12]. In some of them I added several Hungarian names, and in others I added several Slovak names, and of course there's always the Bratislava-anachronism-issue. Some of the questions I still have:
  • In general: what do we think of these edits?
  • I've been in doubt whether to add German names, I suppose Käsmark was also commonly used in English for Kežmarok, and there might be more towns like this (Sillein, Tyrnau).
  • I don't think I added Prešporok for Bratislava anywhere. My impression is that it's far less used in English than Pressburg and Pozsony. As the rules are written now, Prešporok must be added if it's a relevant alternative name. So, is it relevant (in 19th century context)?
  • In the Juraj Jánošík article, it felt a bit silly to add Hungarian names for villages around Čadca. They all have Hungarian names, but I wonder whether they're used in English. Markussep Talk 08:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would prefer clear and consensual rules to the will of a transient plurality. A poll in Wikipedia is not majority voting; it merely indicates whether there is any consensus or not. Clearly, this poll showed the lack of consensus, but it indicates existence of some plurality. Since most of the editors expressing their opinion in a poll were Hungarian, many of them have never made any significant contribution to Slovakia-related articles (in terms of writing), and some of the most prolific Slovak editors refused to vote on this proposal, I do not think it will be seen as binding by Slovak editors (who often voted against the current plurality). If there are any editors willing to work on the rules that would be seen by all or most of us as consensual and binding, I will be happy to continue in the discussion.
My personal pragmatic view at this moment is: well, if this is a solution accepted by most of us, so be it. But before its implementation, I would like to highlight two problems that should be fixed. First, the alternative names that are not linked should be italicized. As far as I can tell, it is a standard way in geographic articles. Second, I can understand why the German name of Kezmarok and the Hungarian name of Dunajska Streda should be relevant. But I am not convinced that we need to use Hungarian names whenever a random village in Slovakia is mentioned somewhere in Wikipedia. Slovakia is not a bilingual country and Hungarian names only rarely appear in English sources. If people believe that a particular Hungarian or German name is frequently used in English, they should provide evidence for it. I am ready to go beyond Wikipedia's rules (WP:NCGN) for the sake of peace, but I am not ready to go beyond the common sense. I do not see any reason why a 100% Slovak village in a multinational kingdom with a German ruler and Latin as the official language should be labeled by a Hungarian name. A specific example of what I mean is the Juraj Janosik article. Since we will surely see many cases like this one, I would like to encourage interested editors to show evidence supporting their view that a Hungarian name is used in relevant English sources in the given context. I think it would be a good idea to use the concerned talk page for this purpose prior inclusion of these names. With these two caveats (italics and inclusion of relevant names only) I welcome Markussep's edits and I also thank him for his extremely valuable engagement in this debate. Tankred (talk) 23:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Ladislav Mednyánszky

Ladislav Mednyánszky (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article should be moved to László Mednyánszky. If you read it, you'll understand why. It is now however struck between his Slovak (Ladislav) and Hungarian (Mednyánszky) spelling. He was ethnic Hungarian, born, lived and died in the Kingdom of Hungary. The full article is struck between a Slovak interpretation of history and placenames and a Hungarian one. --Rembaoud (talk) 15:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Someone should definitely rename the article. However it should be done by someone who's not on an edit restriction so Tankred wouldn't have to tell on me for violating the controversial EE articles editing restriction imposed on me by Elonka..... CoolKoon (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone wants to rename this article, I would suggest they initiate a discussion on the article's talk page and show evidence supporting their view that a particular name is widely used in relevant English sources. I would support Ladislav Medňanský as a new name because this is how he is called in Slovak sources. Both his first name and his last name are of Slavic/Slovak origin. He was born in what is now Slovakia and is still considered Slovak there. I do not think Paris and Vienna were part of the Kingdom of Hungary, so I somehow cannot believe Rembaoud's statement "He was ethnic Hungarian, born, lived and died in the Kingdom of Hungary". But this is my personal view. What is more important than what Rembaoud, CoolKoon, and Tankred think is what English sources say. I have never read any English book mentioning him, so I do not know his "English name". If you want to rename this (or any sensitive) article, please provide evidence and citations on the article's talk page. Tankred (talk) 21:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, then let's use this page for the discussion. BTW it's pretty much false reasoning that if somebody has lived in that part of Hungary which is now Slovakia he/she must have been Slovak. Unfortunately many Slovaks agree to this reasoning. And besides I could argue that since Štúr, Hurban, Hodža, Kollár etc. lived in Hungary they must've been Hungarian (although many Slovaks would lynch me for such a statement). As for László Mednyánszky it's interesting that many other nations seem to support our POV: the French; the Germans: [13],[14] and [15];even the Russians: [16] and [17] (hint for those who don't understand the Cyrilic alphabet: search for "Ласло Меднянски" and Vengria is Hungary in Russian). Unfortunately Squash Rocket has found some nice English sources so I won'T have to search for those :P CoolKoon (talk) 07:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The New York Times mentions the Hungarian painter several times by his name, László Mednyánszky. Also here and here. Lonely Planet also mentions him by his name, the book Made in Hungary: Hungarian Contributions to Universal Culture also.
The name can be found also in The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, and the The dictionary of art. Squash Racket (talk) 03:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support moving to László Mednyánszky per all the above. Hobartimus (talk) 10:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New active threads

After Elonka announced her short-term absence, Hobartimus has already made three attempts to ban MarkBA. Since he somehow forgot to put links on this page, here is the list of the currently active threads:

There is a long record of such "reports" and "counter-reports" in this conflict and they did not resolve any of the substantive issues spoiling relations between us. It was my understanding that we were trying to reach some kind of dispute resolution here and any new supposed incidents would be reported here as well. I trust Elonka's judgment because she is closely following this complex case. Maybe I was wrong and attempts to get the other side blocked by contacting random uninvolved administrators are still a fair game. If this is the case, there have been other users who have recently broken their editing restrictions and/or posted personal attacks. Should I go ahead and report them? Are we going to return to this old game or we want to have a centralized discussion here? Tankred (talk) 19:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've asked Hobartimus to comment here. Shell babelfish 19:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since Tankred already made false statement in this case once I'm not surprised that he did it again, and again so obviously, the last thread on Arbitration Enforcement was opened by User:Shalom very clearly, not by me, exactly for the same reason, nobody is sure what is the appropriate place to report this. Also if Tankred would like to make the claim that CheckUser confirmed abusive sockpuppetry is now freely allowed on Wikipedia I'd like to see the policy that supports this intresting interpretation. Hobartimus (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All threads are patrolled by administrators experienced in dealing with sockpuppets if they thought that this discussion board set up for content disputes is the best place for discussing mass sockpuppetry they were free to move the threads here it takes a couple of clicks. Maybe next time CheckUser (notice that this was a CheckUser related case) should also be requested here and if a Slovak user vandalises, or inserts shock images to articles or makes death threats, it should be reported here, not WP:AIV or other places because every disruptive, abusive action made by a Slovak user is somehow part of a dispute now huh? Hobartimus (talk) 20:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for enlightening me by your carefully chosen extreme examples. Although you did not really address any of the issues I raised in my comment, at least I know now where we are. It would be also nice if you could stop calling me a liar and stop putting words that I have never said into my mouth. But after all my previous experiences with you, I should probably lower my expectations of what you can write about me. Tankred (talk) 01:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quote:

I'll be forwarding this case to WP:AE (arbitration enforcement) in a moment. That's where MarkBA can be dealt with. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 07:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, the first thread shown as "active" has been archived quite a while ago, it has been inserted into Archive 414 many hours before Tankred added his comment and we also have Archive 415 for more recent cases. Squash Racket (talk) 06:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Geography

On another personal note, there is a chance that I may be traveling to Europe this year. If I do find myself in Central/Eastern Europe, I would love to meet Wikipedians while there, especially you guys.  :) Are there ever any meetups in your area? And/or, would you be comfortable listing which cities that you live in, so that I could arrange my itinerary to be sure to travel through there at some point?  :) --Elonka 23:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are some meetups in Hungary, but I don't know much about that as I don't attend these. Squash Racket (talk) 04:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm......looks like there aren't any definite meetings in Hungary scheduled yet, and besides from the already finished meeting places Budapest was the closest for me but that's still ~200 kms from here. And BTW Elonka I'm already planning to add a userbox to my "little" collection regarding the city I live - Bratislava. So if you happen to get the train wrong or end up in Bratislava by any other unfortunate events, I could show you around ;) (As for the people interested in my harrasment: we've got a magnet activated door lock which keeps Jehovah's witnesses and other unwanted people out :P) CoolKoon (talk) 18:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this all right?

Can an editor under editing restrictions (User:CoolKoon in this case) move articles from a Slovak title to a Hungarian one without any discussion? See history of Pázmány family and Hunt-Pázmán. It seems no one gives a crap about this experimental page any more and everyone is either trying to bypass it or just ignores it. But it would be polite to use at least the talk pages of the moved articles. Tankred (talk) 01:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Stay civil please. I looked at his edit and he simply didn't seem to be aware of past talk page discussions or any controversy. He simply thought the articles were listed by a completely wrong name and moved them.
He also changed the names at the article Great Moravia, that also suggests he didn't think discussion would be necessary. Squash Racket (talk) 04:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but I never thought that the name Poznan could be in any way related to one of the oldest Hungarian noble families, whose names are always cited as Pázmán/Pázmány. I even know a family living in Bratislava whose family name is Poznan (the weird thing is that it's a Hungarian family). I'd never thought of them having any relation to the Pázmány family. BTW it's really not nice of you, Tankred, to assume ill faith or maliciousness. I'm just trying to be objective. BTW since when had the Pázmány family anything to do with Slovaks whatsoever? Tankred, even you seem to only support the fact that maybe they have some ancestry in the Great Moravian Empire.CoolKoon (talk) 17:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Very nice. If I ask people to discuss controversial changes on talk pages, I am being "uncivil", and I "assume ill faith or maliciousness". Why do I bother? Tankred (talk) 21:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Say, Tankred, do you take all edits even a little bit related to Slovaks or Slovakia (by Hungarians) as a personal attack? Or do you mean that any article edits related to Slovakia must be subjected to a discussion (especially the ones made by any Hungarian-speaking people)? Did you think that I've made those edits just to annoy you? CoolKoon (talk) 07:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CoolKoon, I don't think this helps. Elonka had a good suggestion recently: try discussing without using the word "you". Markussep Talk 10:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't want to repeat the clearly uncivil part of your comment, but Shell Kinney did it so now it is probably clear to everyone. Squash Racket (talk) 03:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think what Squash Racket and CoolKoon were trying to say was that he reasonably believed these would not be controversial. While this is a safe place to talk about issues and hopefully is building understanding and trust, there's no requirement that any edit anywhere that might possibly be related to Hungarians or Slovaks be discussed here first.
Instead of coming here claiming no one gives a crap etc., a polite note to CoolKoon could have cleared up this issue in a civil and productive manner. Accusing someone of bypassing the page is uncivil -- you'll often find that people do things because they think they're helping far more often than they do things just to get away with it. Its always difficult in heated situations to keep your cool, but remember, its important to try to assume good faith of everyone's actions even in the middle of a dispute. Shell babelfish 21:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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