Talk:Conservatism

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"but classical liberals are less suspicious of big government than conservatives"

What kind of nonsense is that ?? Libertarians are not suspicious of big government? This website's a joke 201.212.90.185 (talk) 20:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

What? Your point makes no sense. Assume Good Faith, yes, but are you confusing Liberals and Libertarians? This page is a reference to conservatism as the right-leaning portions of the political spectrum, including Libertarianism, and to a more extreme extent, Fascism. In the same vein, the page on Liberalism is indicative of the left-leaning political spectrum, including Socialism and to a more extreme extent Communism.

Please read more into the goal of an article before you incorrectly complain about its contents. Pmo22 (talk) 17:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

OK... Whoever is writing all of this about less suspicion... just stop alright?... Liberals think that government should control everybody's lives and in that the entire nation to the point that nobody actually has an identity... can anybody see the connection to Communism... thought so. Mistinis (talk) 20:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)Mistinis

Ummm, actually that's your opinion of what liberals want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.18.128.191 (talk) 00:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Improve the article

This article may be improve if we just include stuff as conservative positions in this days, and we explain them.

It may also be more organized and include ideas of Latin America or Africa.--Erick91 01:31, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed this line:

"(Other religious conservatives were less willing to accommodate those who disagreed with their views.)"

It is mean-spirited and doesn't advance the article. My assumption is that the line is in parentheses to draw extra attention to it. Now, if a documented quote can be supplied that agrees with the spirit this line tries to convey, it could be added without adding the obvious bias the original poster has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.36.116.37 (talk) 11:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

"Conservative government is an organized hypocrisy"

I have removed this from the article because whoever added it had misunderstood what Disraeli meant. To give the quote its context and why it has been misinterpreted, I'll give the peroration of the speech addressed to Sir Robert Peel:

"There is no doubt a difference in the right hon. gentleman's demeanour as leader of the Opposition and as Minister of the Crown. But that's the old story; you must not contrast too strongly the hours of courtship with the years of possession. 'Tis very true that the right hon. gentleman's conduct is different. I remember him making his protection speeches. They were the best speeches I ever heard. It was a great thing to hear the right hon. gentleman say: "I would rather be the leader of the gentlemen of England than possess the confidence of Sovereigns". That was a grand thing. We don't hear much of "the gentlemen of England" now. But what of that? They have the pleasures of memory—the charms of reminiscence. They were his first love, and, though he may not kneel to them now as in the hour of passion, still they can recall the past; and nothing is more useless or unwise than these scenes of crimination and reproach, for we know that in all these cases, when the beloved object has ceased to charm, it is in vain to appeal to the feelings. You know that this is true. Every man almost has gone through it. My hon. gentleman does what he can to keep them quiet; he sometimes takes refuge in arrogant silence, and sometimes he treats them with haughty frigidity; and if they knew anything of human nature they would take the hint and shut their mouths. But they won't. And what then happens? What happens under all such circumstances? The right hon. gentleman, being compelled to interfere, sends down his valet, who says in the genteelest manner: "We can have no whining here". And that, sir, is exactly the case of the great agricultural interest—that beauty which everybody wooed and one deluded. There is a fatality in such charms, and we now seem to approach the catastrophe of her career. Protection appears to be in about the same condition that Protestantism was in 1828. The country will draw its moral. For my part, if we are to have free trade, I, who honour genius, prefer that such measures should be proposed by the hon. member for Stockport than by one who through skilful Parliamentary manoeuvres has tampered with the generous confidence of a great people and a great party. For myself, I care not what may be the result. Dissolve, if you please, the Parliament you have betrayed. For me there remains this at least—the opportunity of expressing thus publicly my belief that a Conservative Government is an organised hypocrisy". (Buckle & Monypenny, Life of Disraeli. Volume I (1928), pp. 718-19.)

Disraeli was saying that Peel, elected to uphold the Corn Laws but repealed them a few years later, had betrayed the people who elected him. It was not who "personally profit from the repeal of the corn laws". Disraeli would later be the head of a Conservative Government.--Johnbull 03:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

In fact, many MPs were voting their own financial interests. However, I have no objection to your formulation of the quote. Let's have it with your words to explain it. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:09, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not think it should be in the article because it does not relate to conservatism as an ideology—Disraeli was not criticising conservatism but the hypocrisy of Peel's Conservative government in not pursuing Conservative policies despite being elected to do just that.--Johnbull (talk) 16:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the observation of Disraeli, a major conservative, of the relationship between conservative ideology and self-interest is of major importance. It is one example of many. Since the article on patriotism mentions jingoism, I think the article on conservatism should at least mention the relationship between conservative government and the self-interest of the upper class, not only in England, but in many times and places.--Rick Norwood, 14:17, December 16, 2007.

Disraeli is not talking about self-interest. He was not a landowner and therefore he cannot have had a self-interest in the maintenance of the Corn Laws. Without a source which claims Disraeli was talking about self-interest in this regard, to include the quote in the article with the claim that he was talking about self-interest amounts to original research.--Johnbull (talk) 00:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

If I wanted to include that in the article, I would of course quote sources. What I suggested was including the quote with your own explanation of it. Since the quote is important enough to appear in Bartlett's, it is certainly important enough to appear in this article. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

For any historical quote, context is incredibly important. In this case, the context is very specific - Disraeli, a conservative, was condemning a particular conservative government for betraying the interests of the rich landed interests that had arrested it, and comparing it to a previous conservative government of a decade or so before which had done a similar thing to anti-catholic interests which had similarly supported it. The statement has little relevance to any general discussion of conservatism. As far as Bartlett's goes, it's purpose is close to the opposite of ours - its purpose is to strip quotes of their context and present them as general maxims. We should not be doing this. john k (talk) 17:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Chesterton an example of conservatism?

I was correcting the punctuation and word order of the following quotation of G. K. Chesterton: "'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober.'" In doing so I paid closer attention to the statement it's used to demonstrate, i.e. that some conservatives wish to "expose the hypocrisy of an existing regime." Although there are situations in which this is true, isn't it a patent characteristic of liberalism? The article's example is the Chesterton quotation. According to Wikipedia, his ideas "were far too nuanced to fit comfortably under the "liberal" or "conservative" banner." I believe this point is in need of elaboration and evidence. 66.251.27.98 (talk) 02:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Read Chesterton on the subject of "niggers". Rick Norwood (talk) 13:29, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you be less sibylline? What do you mean? David Descamps (talk) 15:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Definition

Political Conservatism does not mean the favor of slow, gradual change. It means small or "conservative" government interference, where as liberal means much or liberal government interference. I don't know why this definition is spread around and regurgitated. This definition is often associted with the GOP in the U.S. It's simply not true. For instance, the GOP's favor of Second Amendment rights is a conservative political stance, but the GOP's pro-life stance is a liberal stance because it involves government interference. The Democrat Party favors the legalization of drugs, which is a conservative stance, but endorses the limiting of Second Amendment rights, which is a liberal stance. Libertarianism is the most conservative political ideology (except for, perhaps, anarchism) and fascism (and, hence totalitarinism) is the most liberal. Chenzo23 (talk) 00:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The definition of conservatism as meaning small government is peculiar to the United States and (more recently) some other English speaking countries. Bismarck was highly conservative yet he introduced state socialism/welfare state yet no one denies he was a conservative, yet under your definition he would be, bizarrely, a liberal. Can the conservative doctrine of Joseph de Maistre, for example, be really reduced to "small government"? Your post showed awareness of America only. And as for the definition of liberalism as "big government" (and fascism and totalitarianism as the most liberal!) that is even more US-centric and wide of the mark.--Johnbull (talk) 02:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Political conservatism means limits, so a limited government. Belgian conservatives (long long time ago. No more conservative party there), with Charles Woeste who once said «J’ai peur de l’état et je hais le Césarisme» [I fear the state and I hate Cæsarism] and Auguste Beernaert « Il faudra réduire le gouvernement au strict nécessaire » [We will have to reduce the government to the strict necessity], wanted that limited government. (Quotes from the "Biographie Nationale")David Descamps (talk) 07:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

In a word, balderdash. Conservativism does not mean, nor has never implied "limited government interference," as if liberalism favored "unlimited government interference." Do you have any idea at all how blantantly biased that sounds? Conservatism" is so named because they are trying to "conserve" the status quo. The generally wish to keep things as tradition upholds. Whether this is done through small or large amounts of government interference truly depends on the society in which the conservative movement exists, and the amount of government "interference" varies from issue to issue. You think the pro-life stance, for instance, can be upheld with no government interference? On the contrary, the way things are now would require large amounts of government interference to make abortion illegal. (Of course, pro-life is also a biased term, but that's a topic for another board.) Even before abortion became legal, it would require large amounts of government interference to keep individuals from getting abortions if they were determined to have them. PatrickLMT (talk) 09:27, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Chenzo23, you've gotten a couple of good answers, but since you ask for my thoughts on the subject: the word's "liberal" and "conservative" as they are bandied about in the current political debate are meaningless or, rather, just mean "my side" and "your side". On the other hand, if you read books written before, say, 1960, or serious scholarly books, you discover that the meaning of the words is much closer to the dictionary meaning. Liberals favor freedom, conservatives favor the status quo or the status quo ante.

The ideas that you have picked up, that liberals favor big government and conservatives favor small government, go back to the time when FDR was president. The class structure at that time was as strong as it has ever been in America. Both New York City and the state of California had police lines that only upper class people were allowed to cross. FDR was called, explicitly, "a traitor to his class". The wealth was concentrated in the hands of the few, who conspired to fix wages and prices, to bust unions and to use government power to restrict the rights of workers, people of color, and women. People in America were starving, living in "shanty towns", wandering from place to place looking for work. It was in this context that the government, under FDR, began to offer very limited help to ordinary Americans. He was called every dirty name in the book, including "Jew" and "communist".

It was never a question of "big government" vs. "small government". It was a question of big government helping the rich vs. big government helping the poor.

The political movement that actually favors small government is the libertarian movement. The Republican party in the United States wooed the libertarians, by promising small government, and by portraying the Democrats as in favor of big government. In fact, the federal government has grown in power under both parties, so that no American president in my lifetime has ever paid more than lip service to "small government" conservatism.

And political propaganda has done its best to destroy the meaning of words, in order to increase the power of government.

Rick Norwood (talk) 13:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Very educational, but Chenzo has a point. In the US, 'conservative' has certainly come to be identified with 'spending conservatively'. Having this article limit the definition to 'limited change' misses the full range of meanings the word has come to have. Insisting that 'conservative' only ever means the first definition would *kinda* be like defining 'gay' as happy and bright, ignoring the word's now predominant association with people who have a particular sexual orientation. (I'm using some hyperbole, but it's true nevertheless) Regardless of the way the word acquired this particular shade of meaning, under NPOV it should really be addressed. 'Liberal' and 'conservative' are such widely applicable words - like 'Functionalism', 'Structuralism', or 'Postmodernism', their meaning varies too widely according to the word's context and the person who is using it for any succinct definition, such as the one on this page, to be rightly given. --NZUlysses (talk) 23:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The link to Fiscal Conservatism basically argues that the way it is used here (i.e. limited taxes) is wrong. So which one is it, limited government involvement or balanced budget ? 63.241.31.130 (talk) 00:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Johnbull and Chenzo you have it right... you would not believe some people... some actually think that Conservatism is anarchy... :P right?

Wrong definition for Britain

The use of the word 'Conservatism' in British politics was firmly attached, originally, to the preservation of the link between the state and the Church of England: more specifically, the retention of laws preventing Catholic Succession. As this is fundamentally based on a belief that protestantism represents progress and independence, whereas Roman Catholiicism represents loss of national independence and regression, Britain's original Conservatives were therefore, in their own view, actually conservators of revolution/progress achieved, progressives opposing a certain type of conservatism, their use of the word therefore in some ways verging on the cryptic/ironic/colourful/'tongue-in-cheek.' No doubt the Party has attracted hordes of following, and even leading active members, totally ignorant of this original history and meaning, resulting in a deeply misleading and confusing state of affairs, historically, and in terms of fundamental character, but one which Wikipedia surely need not add to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.100.250.230 (talk) 10:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

History of Conservatism

I'm not sure why a recent edit removed references to older conservatives. It is standard to use the word in discussing history, especially the history of Greece, Rome, and China. It seems that some people want to change the meaning of the word. This seems counterproductive. In every culture, there are people who support the old ways, the traditions, the old religion, and the importance of family. In all times and places, modern historians identify such people as conservatives. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

What about reformation? How can you source the POV you wrote earlier? I've never read that protestant reformation was conservative…Usually, it is said that protestant reformation lead to French Revolution. David Descamps (talk) 18:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Self identified Conservative Christians trace their beliefs to Martin Luther and the protestant reformation, which took place in the 16th Century. The French Revolution took place two hundred years later, in the 18th century. Not only did the two events take place in different centuries, they took place in different countries. The protestant reformation was largely German (also Swiss and English). The French remained Catholic. The French Revolution was a liberal, overthrowing the monarchy. Both were anti-Catholic, but that is just about the only thing they had in common. The protestant reformation wanted to replace the Roman church by Bible believing Christianity; the French revolution wanted to replace the Catholic church by atheism. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Come on… you're showing off your ignorance. Large parts of France became protestant during reformation, resulting in wars. France regained catholic faith because of Counter-Reformation which was really conservative. It is not because conservatives in USA are mainly protestant that reformation was conservative. And you're mixing political philosophy with some psychological bias or with radical fundamentalism. David Descamps (talk) 10:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

What a strange response. I'm certainly aware of the Huguenots. I'm also aware that they were slaughtered, and that, as I said, France remained Catholic. You have not offered any evidence for your claim that "protestant reformation lead to French Revolution." And to suggest that, because I know what "Conservative Christians" mean when they so identify themselves, that makes me a radical fundamentalist is absurd. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You said that reformation didn't take place at the same place of French revolution. (both had implications on the whole of Europe) Now you said that French protestants were simply slaughtered, this is a nice shortcut. Between Edict of Fontainebleau and Edict of Nantes, there is some years… Perhaps I didn't offered any evidence, but I didn't write any claim on main page, on the contrary of you. Perhaps you would find some similarities between Monarchomachs and the tyrannicide theory used in 1789. Perhaps this book of Dale K. Van Kley will give you a light : The Religious Origins of the French Revolution: From Calvin to the Civil Constitution, 1560-1791. David Descamps (talk) 17:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not at all sure what I wrote that you are objecting to, or what point you are trying to make. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You wrote that conservatism is based or comes from Protestant Reformation. That is not correct. You wrote that conservatism is just a bias that some people have in every culture and every epoch. That is not correct. This page is about conservatism, a political philosophy that mainly comes from reaction to progressivist French Revolution based on Enlightement ideology. So mainly from Edmund Burke, not Cicero, not Martin Luther. Even if lots of conservative protestants think it is from Martin Luther (but that point of view should be written in this article as it is : a point of view) or even if Cicero can be considered as a conservative (but this is anachronistic). I think you have a (legitimate for me) problem with the american meaning of the word Liberalism and you try to make that point here, look at your speech about "conservative propaganda to lure libertarians" (I think you mix also conservatism with neoconservatism). I also do think that the use of the word liberal in US is wrong, but it is not here that you will change that. This seems counterproductive to me. David Descamps (talk) 15:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The article has been edited so many times that I can no longer tell which parts I wrote and which parts other people wrote. I don't think I ever said that conservatism was a 'bias' or that conservative propaganda tries to 'lure' libertarians. That doesn't sound like me. But that is not important, the only important thing is that the article be correct.

One strand of conservatism, modern political conservatism, can be traced back to Burke and to reaction to the French Revolution. But the word is commonly used in other ways. If one reads history, one finds the word often applied to Cicero, Confucius, and many others who valued family and stability above individualism and freedom. Burke's ideas were not original with him -- few ideas can be traced to a single source.

Of course Martin Luther was not a conservative -- he was a revolutionary -- but the people who currently identify themselves as "conservative Christians" (not only in the US, but also in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Australia and many other places) consider themselves to be followers of Martin Luther. Thus the revolutionary ideas of one generation become the conservative ideas of later generations.

I tend to place a great value on the dictionary meaning of words -- standard dictionaries, especially the Oxford English Dictionary -- are the only defense against propagandists spinning words to mean anything they want them to mean. Without common meaning, communication becomes impossible. I don't have an OED handy, but Webster's Seventh New Collegiat Dictionary defines conservative as "1 a: an adherent or advocate of political conservatism b cap: a member or supporter of a conservative political party 2 a: one who adheres to traditional methods or views b: a cautious or discreet person." This article places its greatest emphasis on definition 1, but should also include definition 2. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This page is about the political philosophy : the first definition in the Webster dictionary (1a), not the second. There is a disambiguation page to deal with other meanings. David Descamps (talk) 10:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You are correct -- I withdraw the view expressed in my final paragraph. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

It's the economy stupid

This article focuses almost exclusively on social values. What about the economic values of conservatism?

The wedding of conservatism and economic liberalism came much later, primarily in the US during the administration of FDR, when "that man in the White House" put the welfare of the American people above the rights of businessmen. At this point, the economic liberals in America split off from the social liberals and, looking for a home, joined the God, King, and Country conservatives. For more on this subject, see Conservatism in the United States.

By the way, it looks as if the future will bring more political bed-hopping, as the conservatives, because of their suspicion of foreigners and foreign ways, put Americanism above the rights of businessmen to go multi-national. As this happens, according to The World is Flat, economic liberals will return to the liberal camp. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

RWA and SDO

Why is RWA and SDO discussed here? They don't seem like legitimate topics under this category.