Talk:Benito Mussolini

POV of opening?

I know a lot of people have been working on this article and there is a long list of settled issues, but it seems to me the overall result is an opening section that shows that this fellow Mussolini was a fine leader and managed to get a lot accomplished. Sure, there is a brief mention of censorship and propaganda, but then look at all the domestic accomplishments! The admiration of political leaders! The daring rescue from prison! I realize that there are people who still revere the man, but this barely suggests that he is controversial, let alone widely reviled. You have to keep reading a lot further to find the political violence, the police state, the imperial invasions, the Nazi-backed puppet regime. All of this is in the article, but hidden. Maybe someone who's been working on this article already could take a crack at rewriting the opening to provide at least a bit more balance.Prodes111 (talk) 19:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Mussolini a sniper?

Mussolini fought from 1915 to early 1917 in a Bersaglieri regiment. He wasn't a sniper, he was a fusilier, an ordinary infantryman. I have read his war diary and there is no mention of sniping. Later in the war Mussolini was trained to use a trench mortar, and he was in charge of a mortar squad when one of the shells they were shooting at the Austrians misfired and Mussolini got wounded. So I can't see where that bit of information comes from. It is not in the Italian entry on Mussolini, which is thoroughly documented. I do not think that MS Encarta is a reliable source when it comes to this kind of details.--213.140.21.227 17:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

You are totally 100% correct. That is insanity to suggest that the crafty editor of newspapers was also a trained sniper. I have over 10 biographies on Mussolini ranging in time and scope and none of them mention him being a sniper. I have updated the World War I section and used legitmate references from a British Ambassador who was a contemporary of Mussolini, Ivone Kirkpatrick. Mussolini is too fascinating a figure to be left to such shoddy citing and crazy claims. It is time to clean this page up!!! (24.12.91.197 (talk) 02:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC))

The Missing Brother

The importance of Arnaldo, Mussolini's elder brother, in the ascent of the Duce is not mentioned in this entry. Arnaldo was the only person that Benito really trusted, and he was the liason between him and the Vatican (Arnaldo being a devout Catholic, unlike his former Socialist and atheist brother). I think there should be an entry on Arnaldo Mussolini, and something should also be added to this entry.--213.140.21.227 17:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

censorship

The section dedicated to Mussolini as a soldier in the first world war has been drastically altered, and I find no mention in the discussion section of any intended modification of the much longer paragraph that was there before. --Jimbolone 11:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Grolier copyright and citation issues

The "foreign policy" section seems to have been partially copied from [1]. Other sections should probably be checked for copyright problems. The Groiler's encyclopedia article is cited as a source elsewhere. This is mildly inappropriate, as Wikipedia should finding independent justification for fact in books written by historians, not pointing at competing encyclopedias. -- Beland 06:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Mussolini the Socialist

This article states: "He left the army an anti-socialist in 1917"

This is nonsense. Mussolini was and always stayed to be a socialist. However during the first world war many former leading internationalist-socialistic comrades suddenly proved to be much more nationalist than they claimed before. (Search for info on the internet about the betrayel of the second internationalist conference). This let Benito to the conclusion that socialism needed and should use the strength of nationalism. That is how he became a national socialist in the true meaning of the word. So what he really became in 1917 was anti-internationalistic-socialism. He let go of the internationalistic part and not of the socialist part of his believes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.45.225.74 (talk) 11:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

(from France) if ever the anonymous propagandist of 29/11/07 at 11:13 had a basic historical knowledge, or if he ever had under the eyes a copy of 'Il Popolo d'Italia', the paper that Mussolini created in nov. 1914 with French (diplomatic) and Italian (bug business) financial's help, he should know that from that time Mussolini stopped to be a socialist. These 29/11 statements are nothing but a childish attempt to tell us the same old story, socialism equal fascism... 194.254.169.6 15:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC) L. Nemeth

Internationalist Socialism versus Fascist Socialism

Many people condemn Mussolini for his dictatorship and the violence of fascism. But most people do not understand that before he conquered Italy the International Socialists where planning a revolution orchestrated by the Russian communists. These Russian communist had by this time already many hundreds of thousands people killed in Russia during and after their revolution. The fascist have never ever been as cruel as them, not by a long shot. If Mussolini would not have taken control, than the internationalist Socialists would have turned Italy into a bloodbath. The fascist prevented this, but it was impossible to do this in a friendly way against such a violent enemy.

---

These remarks show a very shallow knowledge of Italian history 1918-1922. No mention of the fact that Mussolini left the Socialist party because he was given money by powerful Italian industrial cartels (Agnelli, Ansaldo, Perrone, weapon-makers who were in favor of Italy joining the war as it would bring them huge contracts), so Mussolini's opposition to the Socialists started well before the strikes and protests that started after the end of the war. Besides, the Socialists were one thing and the Communists were another, quite different, thing. Saying that "International Socialists where planning a revolution orchestrated by the Russian communists" is proof of a big misunderstanding of what the real relations between Socialists and Communists were in post-war Italy (btw the Italian Communist Party was born in 1921, and that party had strong connections with Moscow; but it didn't exist as an independent organization before that year). Moreover, the diffusion of socialist ideas was caused by the ruthless exploitation of Italian workers and peasants carried out by the Italian middle- and upper-classes, an exploitation which was heightened during the war (imagine going on strike because of low wages in a moment when factories were busy producing machine-guns, mortars, armoured cars, military trucks, etc.--they immediately sent the Army to repress any protest), and was definitely not something remotely controlled by the Bolsheviks in Moscow.

All in all those remarks are nonsense. Mussolini was a ruthless dictator, who carried out an aggressive and imperialistic international policy. One might mention the censorship, the elimination of dissidents, the colonial wars, the role played by Italy in the Spanish civil war, and then what Italians did in the Balkans during W.W.II (the Yugoslav and the Greeks found the Nazis more manageable!).--213.140.21.227 17:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

He was executed by firing squad, not assassinated

In the article "execution by firing squad" his execution is even listed as an example! --84.220.25.149 (talk) 23:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Benito Papito was assassinated by the very definition of the word; "Assassination is the targeted killing of an individual who is in a high-profile position. An added distinction between assassination and other forms of killing is that the assassin has an ideological or political motivation."

The fact that he was murdered by a firing squad does not change the fact that communists assassinated him based on him been of a high-profile position, fueled by political and ideological motivations.[2][3][4] Wikipedia can't be used as a source for another article. - Animagentile (talk) 01:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Definition of assassinate from Merriam Webster

You seem to have forgotten the fact that it must be a sudden attack to be an assassination. A firing squad isn't exactly secret. DDSaeger (talk) 02:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a very narrow definition of the word. The OED gives "To kill by treacherous violence." So he was assassinated. Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

While he was high profile he was not in a position of power as he had already been ousted as Italy's leader. I do not think that "assassination" is the correct word and "execution" could imply that his death was ordered as the result of some kind of trial. I think "killed" is probably the least evocative word but does not have the same description of the manner in which he died. I think the most accurate phrase is "summary execution" as this shows that his death was extra-judicial and is not as evocative as "assasination" which relies on the POV that his killing was treacherous. --Aimaz (talk) 14:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you had good reasons for changing it. I prefer "summarily executed" to "assassinated". Carl.bunderson (talk) 16:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with "summarily executed" as well. However, that change seems to have been reverted. Animagentile, reasons have been provided why this might be more appropriate - why exactly do you prefer assassinated? DDSaeger (talk) 23:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Please don't keep changing it back. Summarily executed is clearly the better term. --John (talk) 18:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Summarily executed is correct. I remind that Audisio has a written order from Raffaele Cadorna, Jr. to execute Mussolini.User talk:Lucifero4.

"bloodbath" of -24

The article claims that "The militant members of the party were angry that only a few dozen had been killed and a bloodbath ensued, causing thousands of casualties" following the assassination of Matteotti. I can't find mention of this bloodbath anywhere else, nor is there any citation for the statement. Can someone clarify this? Also, can you be more specific? Was the bloodbath against socialists, communists and/or anarchists, or just civilian Italians in general? Was the bloodbath ordered by Il Duce, the military leaders, or did it "just happen"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.50.170.14 (talk) 22:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Anteo Zamboni

Anteo Zamboni, the boy that was lynched by the mob, was actually innocent, it says that in one of my books on Mussolini. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.44.86.61 (talk) 22:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

expansionism for militarism

I thought I better explain the reason for such a change in the intro first. Since Italia irredenta was an important part of the ideology of Italian nationalists under Fascism and obviously we have the building of the Italian Empire, "expansionaism" covers both of those things, as well as the obvious means in which the Empire could be formed in the first place; by military force. - Gennarous (talk) 01:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Atheist

I have added Mussolini to the atheist category due his anti-clerical and atheist views shown in early writings and then in private even after his supposed "conversion" to Catholicism. It is highly likely if not certain that Mussolini did not believe in God. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.160.105 (talk) 03:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

As I know Mussolini recived the baptism as an infant so following the canon law is not an atheist but a catholic,but he didn't belive in God that is sure. As I know in 1927 he married Rachele Guidi in front of priest years after his civil marriage with Donna Rachele, this decision of a religius marriage was done before the Lateran Traty. (User:Lucifero4)

Reference 24 is incorrect

The sentence ending with footnote 24 should be entirely deleted, for the referenced article (footnote 24) makes no mention at all of Dollfuss. Also, the article gives no origin for the alleged quote about 'pederasts'. So please delete that entire sentence (section 5.1). 67.78.143.226 (talk) 19:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll move the ref so it doesn't refer to Dollfuss, but there is no reason to remove it wholesale. The article is a whole is referenced--how does it fail to meet the criteria for being a RS? Carl.bunderson (talk) 04:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

67.78.143.226, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make? Are you trying to say Mussolini and Dollfuss were not allies before the nazis had him killed? If so, you would be incorrect. - Gennarous (talk) 04:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Missing Word

There is a missing word in the first sentence: Benito Amilcare Andrea Mussolini (July 29, 1883 – April 28, 1945) was an Italian who led the National Fascist Party and is credited with being one of key figures in the creation of Fascism.

It should say "one of the key figures," not "one of key figures.

HisPowr4U (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)HisPowr4U 5/11/08

Noted and fixed. Thanks. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Extra Word

In the sentence, "Mussolini's face looked as if it he had significant pain..." I believe it should read "Mussolini's face looked as if he had significant pain..." or "Mussolini's face looked as if he was in significant pain...". Or it could all be removed since most the information in the Death section has no reference or bad references, but I suppose thats just Wikipedia. At least add some "It is believed..." or "It has been reputed..." --67.168.101.115 (talk) 19:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

           Remove "it" and you're done. Da Baron (talk) 23:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Mussolini's Roman Empire

I read a book that's now out of print, called Mussolini's Roman Empire, it cast a lot of light on diplomacy between Italy and Nazi Germany. Hitler and mussolini had several direct meetings in which they spoke about their plans and ideals. The interesting thing is that though mussolini could speak some german he was no good with comprehension so much of Hitler's words most likey went w/o any kind of understanding. Mussolini refused to use a translator and probably didn't understand half of hitler's words. Da Baron (talk) 23:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)