Talk:Black people

Removal of 'Refimprove' tag

This article should be removed. Black people are marginalised in todays society so they dont really need a page devoted to them.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweet as911 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the 'Refimprove' template tag from the top of the article, which requested that users submit more verifiable references. As of this edit, the article has around 6000 words, and over 100 references. Unless there is something else at work here that I haven't noticed during my (admittedly cursory) read-through, I think we can safely say that the content is well-sourced. --PeruvianLlama^(spit) 05:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You are correct, but I think that this article still needs to be improved in some ways (See "Re organization at the bottom of the page) -(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 13:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC))

Barak Obama picture

It should be moved one paragraph down to the part that talks about his "Blackness" issue during his 2008 campaign. Though really I don't even think his picture should be here since he is 50% White, so not Black.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.72.135 (talk) 22:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

"50% white, so not black" What??? Are you being sarcastic, here? "black and white" are messy and loaded terms, making percentages -- let alone absolutist and arbitrary definitions thereof -- pointless except to further add to the confusion and the legacy of racism.Youngea (talk) 01:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The picture is there to illistrate an example of partial blackness. Yahel Guhan 03:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Afro-Arabs and Obama

Just to jump into a real thicket, a few points To help improve two WIKI articles on an increasingly controversial topic:

• The Afro-Arab article is a messy stub that needs to be beefed up with some of the useful material in the "Middle East" section, as well as better definitions of how the phrase generally is used (working on it);
• Despite what this article says, given the (not addressed here) Sudan issues on black Africans and Arabs, seems the "Middle East" section should be renamed "North Africa and the Middle East";
• Obviously there are (prejudiced sounding) claims that Obama's relatives are African Arabs and/or Muslims. While I'm no genealogist and haven't tracked down a reliable source yet in online searches (and haven't read his books) it seems this would be relevant given Obama gets coverage in this article. So Wiki actually can shed reasonable light on an issue ;-) Carol Moore 00:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

I am not surprised there would be attacks on Obama and alleged Arab connections. I wager that the same folks who are pushing an 'Aryan' model by stealth on Wikipedia across a number of articles are behind it. The source shown below exposes a lot of these falsehoods. I'll check out what you say.

http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita-1993.pdf Mojabba (talk) 03:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Re organization

Would it be better to classify races by ancestry rather than skin color? For instance, there may be dark skinned peoples in Australia and Africa, but they are of very different lineage. I think that the articles that concern races and ethnic groups such as this article should be classified in the following manner:

• African Ethnic Group(s)

• Caucasian Ethnic Group(s)

• Asian Ethnic Group(s)

• Native American Ethnic Group(s)

Each article would have information such as the history of each group. Then, there would be an ethnic category, in which all of the ethnic group articles would fall.

What do all of you think of the idea?-(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 18:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC))

The human race section of this article is a bit irrelevant. This should only be on the Human Race article, not here. I'll delete it on someone's permission.--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 20:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC))

On the contrary, I find it quite relevant as background info. Please leave it in.--Ramdrake (talk) 21:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

O.K. Leave it there! No ignoramus brainwashed by PC curriculum will recognize that it is a collection of mendacious crap. Considering how many such types are present here, the harm for Wikipedia will be minimal. And don't forget to add that we are all Africans under the skin and gorillas and chimpanzees are our brothers and sisters. Centrum99 (talk) 22:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Today most scholars have abandoned these views and see race as a social construct with no biological basis.

NO support for MOST Scholars statement Race is a word that begs definition, it does exist form a medical treatment standpoint. " most scholars have abandoned " Academic scholars frequently bow to peer pressure,as long as there is tenure their will be conformity but this has nothing to do with truth. Race only in a medical sense has been proven. Its relevance outsides that physical sphere is another argument.Stevo46 (talk) 22:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Could you please make your comment more clear?

If we are to classify race by social structure rather than ancestry, there is still much re organization to be done.-(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 15:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC))

Please, we should erase all the ludicrous garbage from the article! It is not only outdated, but even misinterpreted and falsified! I found out that it was a person called "Muntuwandi", who implanted this rubbish there one year ago. For example, the quotation "any two individuals within a particular population are about as different genetically as any two people selected from any two populations in the world" is not a conclusion of Witherspoon's paper (2007), but a quotation of American Anthropological Association from 1997 that Witherspoon et al. actually refute in their study. Not speaking about that the "small" 15% interpopulation divergence in humans is typical for mammals that biologists routinely divide into subspecies. The author of the Fst value, Sewall Wright, said it himself explicitly! And the insane claim that "Today most scholars have abandoned these views and see race as a social construct with no biological basis" may be praised in USA and some multiracial Western countries, but not in the whole world, where scientists still have enough common sense. This article is a disgrace for the whole Wikipedia! Unfortunately, it is not the only one about human differences that is filled with this pseudoscientific, politically-motivated crap. Centrum99 82.100.61.114 (talk) 23:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Centrum, I'm afraid you ran out of credibility a long time ago.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember that you have ever had any credibility, not speaking about knowledge. Centrum99 82.100.61.114 (talk) 00:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Some suggestions:

Today most scholars in USA and Western Europe have abandoned these views...

Breakthroughs in genetics and the mapping of the human genome in the late twentieth century have helped dispel many of the earlier myths about race. At least 99.9% of any one person's DNA is exactly the same as any other person's, regardless of ethnicity.

UNSUBSTANTIED CLAIMS OR IRRELEVANT TO THE VALIDITY OF RACE. BREAKTHROUGHS IN GENETICS SUPPORT THE VALIDITY OF RACE MORE AND MORE.

Of the 0.1% variation, there is an 8% variation between ethnic groups within a race, such as between the French and the Dutch. On average, only 7% of all human genetic variation lies between major human races such as those of Africa, Asia, Europe, and Oceania.

GENERALIZED AND INCORRECT CLAIM, TRUE ONLY FOR SOME DNA MARKERS:

The proportion of genetic variation within continental groups (~93%) is therefore far greater than that between the various continental groups (~7%)

HARDLY CORRECT. THE INTERRACIAL (INTERCONTINENTAL) VARIATION IS FAR GREATER, BECAUSE THE INTERPOPULATION FST VALUE IS LOWERED BY SMALL FST DISTANCES AMONG CLOSELY RELATED GROUPS:

Or to put it another way, "any two individuals within a particular population are about as different genetically as any two people selected from any two populations in the world.

A CLAIM BASED ON OUTDATED SOURCES (VALID ONLY FOR A SMALL NUMBER OF MARKERS) AND - FOR GOODNESS'S SAKE!!! - TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT FROM AN ARTICLE THAT REFUTES IT!!!

Because of these facts, there is general agreement among biologists that human racial differences are too small to qualify races as separate sub-species.

A COMPLETE FABRICATION THAT IS NOT BASED ON ANY FACTS. WHAT ABOUT QUOTING SEWALL WRIGHT OR A RECENT PRESENTATION OF HENRY HARPENDING AT THE Meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists?

http://www.physanth.org/annmeet/aapa2007/aapa2007schedule.pdf

http://www.paxhumana.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160

NO WORD ABOUT THE CLASSICAL TYPOLOGY OF SUB-SAHARAN AFRICANS (HIGHLY CONSISTENT IN ALL PROMINENT ANTHROPOLOGISTS OF THE 20TH CENTURY) AND ONLY 3 SENTENCES ABOUT PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES OF AFRICAN POPULATIONS. AGAIN, IGNORANCE WINS. BUT NOTES ABOUT OPPRESSION, APARTHEID AND OTHER SOCIAL ISSUES MUST BE ADDED AT ANY COST.

Centrum99 82.100.61.114 (talk) 00:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that different human races were sub species. Please read my comment again. --(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 02:21, 1 April 2008 (UTC))

This whole conversation is consistent with one problem. How we define races changes with our sentiments. We define races based on skin color and regional association. This is before DNA anything came into the conversation. The DNA research has been used to reaffirm this social agenda. IN this, you see that only certain genetic markers are used to define race... and those genetic markers have little or nothing to do with the physical appearance. But because, as even random chance will indicate, out of the millions of genetic markers to choose from, some will follow the same regional and skin color pattern... it is those markers that are used to hoist the myth that race is as real as stone. The fact is race is a concept. And it's also obvious at this point in society that the Genetic race game is all about disassociating as much positive meaning a possible from black Africans. You will invariably find "yes... but" and "however" in statements where black heritage is demonstrated in non African groups. While you will find the smallest genetic indication of Caucasoid presence heightened to mislead readers into thinking a founding heritage of white-Caucasians established a great society and culture (from Japan to Ethiopia). You can certainly find just as much black "African" genetic markers in European and Asian groups, but those will be given the heave-ho when those in editorial power re-examine those markers and redefine them to be Caucasoid or (not black) markers, thus redefning the very ancestors as "not truly black". --71.238.121.147 (talk) 03:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It would probably be best if the 99.9% comparison statistic was entirely removed from this page. Humans may all be 99.9% similar to each other but our DNA is also over 98% similar to Chimps. This statistic does not mean the same thing to the biologists that researched it as it seems to in the largely social context of this article. '.1%' is a HUGE difference when it comes to DNA, NOT a similarity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.190.139.151 (talk) 04:32, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Race of ancient Egyptians section should be removed

no it shouldn't - there is a direct lineage from Americans and Egyptians based on DNA research —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.120.194.67 (talk • contribs)

That section is already it's own article and does not need to be here since it is very controversial. Also most people labeled "Black" living away from Africa are descent from Western Africa which is far away from Egypt so they have nothing to do with Egypt anyway. Also ancient Egypt, like today's Egypt, was very mixed and people didn't really label each other as "Black", so the term "Black" has nothing to do with them. Anyone else agree that that section should be removed from this article?

No it shouldn't. Look up Berber, Moor, and Blackamoor. Even in the Webster's dictionary makes the link between Africa - Egypt - American Blacks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.120.194.67 (talk • contribs)

Agreed complitely. The picture itself is loaded, highly controversial in that it purports to represent an ancient Egyptian ethnicity, while ancient Egypt was governed and populated by different ethnic groups during its existance. =Unsigned= —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.56.60 (talk) 20:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

While I agree with your points about ancient Egypt and different ethnicities, there is in fact some "controversy" put forth by Afrocentrists about this and therefore should remain. Remember, we're working towards verifiability, not truth.--Woland (talk) 21:00, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I find the exclusions of the Ancient Egyptians unacceptable. The article is about black people, not merely black people in America. Also, we do not know the proportions of West to East African compositions in Black Americans. We also do not know how much of Ancient Egyptian ancestry blended through the many migrations and contacts with West Africa over the past 3000-4000 years. It's absurd to dismiss the Ancient Egyptian presence in this article based on their speculated lack of direct ancestry to Black Americans. --71.238.121.147 (talk) 03:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Prejudice

Should we mention that most of the people are afraid of black people, and black people usually rapes or mug other races, that most of the time they are the ones to go to jail, that they control the rap business, that they are good at basketball and usually the term gangster often draws up an image of a black male? -150.108.232.26 (talk) 22:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

--edit-- Possibly use the popular culture's view against blacks. Maybe explain the media bias against them, explain the origin of streetgangs since racism was still rampant and gangs had to form. The current gang is a perversion of its true intended purpose. Also maybe explain the cause of white flight, and culture on the blacks. Maybe add a pop culture section to the article? -150.108.232.26 (talk) 02:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The sorts of things you're mentioning are discussed in Stereotypes of black people, although that article could use a lot of work.

PS - If you want people to take you seriously, don't make a comment like "black people usually rapes or mug other races". It's considered trolling, and that's why your comment was removed twice. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 03:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am a black person, and I haven' rape or mugged anyone in my life,and all of the black people i know. None have ever done that either. In fact, black people usually DONT rape or mug other races --71.238.121.147 (talk) 17:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Please don't feed the trolls people. --Woland (talk) 13:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't edit

CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE REMOVE THE SECOND SENTENCE OF THIS ARTICLE THAT CURRENTLY READS "Also know as gay n*****s."??? THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR THAT TO BE HERE. 160.39.152.18 (talk) 04:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It's vandalism, and it's been removed. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 05:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

No it hasn't. It's still there for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Siddhartha21 (talk • contribs) 00:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

that'll happen. i think it's some issue involving caches. 4.174.169.60 (talk) 18:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Page Move

To minimise offense, I recommend a speedy page move to Tinted Brethren. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slydevil (talk • contribs) 17:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

the stupid quote is there again

the "Also know as gay n*****s." is still in there, I've seen by these posts that it was once removed, but it's there right now, can someone take care of that please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.185.81 (talk) 21:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

darker skin color?

The first sentance is "Black people is a term which is usually used to define a racial group of human beings with darker skin color." That doesn't make sense, whith darker skin colour than what? If you say 'with a darker skin color' then you have to compare it to something, for example, with a darker skin colour than white people. I haven't changed it my self because I'm not sure what to make the comparison with. Your thoughts???DineshAdv (talk) 01:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

That seems like a valid concern. The problem is that it varies cross-culturally and we can't just have the Euro-American POV. That sentence does make it seem like anyone with more melanin than Europeans would be labeled 'black,' when in fact that isn't the case. The best solution may be to add another sentence about how this varies cross-culturally, which I believe is mentioned in the article.--Woland (talk) 13:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

yes i have to agree also it should read people with very dark skin as black, though in the united states weird construct some people who do not have very dark skin are considered black(though they should not )--Wikiscribe (talk) 15:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thats because "blackness" is not merely a description of phenotype, it is an interplay between culture, self-identification, and the arbitrary classification of skin pigment. Saying that "people with very dark skin" are black is not particularly useful to this article.--Woland (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

As a light skinned black person, I find Wikiscribe's comment to be patently false. "Should not"? No Wikiscribe I "should" be black based on my culture and ancestry, not based on the definitions and insistence of those who are not even members of the group. When you say "should not", you are implying that someone else "should" determine what black means... and who might that be? --71.238.121.147 (talk) 03:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Historical usage of the term "black" as regards human race

Being "black" has not always meant being of sub-Saharan origin. For thousands of years the term "black" (in regards race) meant a dark caucasoid, eg. Black Irish, Black Jews, Black Italians, Black Moors etc. This article makes it look as though "black" has always meant "Sub-Saharan". It hasn't. Even into the 20th century Turks, Arabs, Berbers and related peoples were referred to as "black". The use of "black" meaning "sub-Saharan" has only existed since the term n****r became unacceptable. A lot needs to be added to the article showing the usage of "black" through the ages.... Dr Rgne (talk) 10:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The strength of the term over the last few generations has been concentrated within Black people from Africa. In fact, the issue is really that there are those who do not wish to include Moors Jews and others as black because they do not wish readers to believe that those groups had African (Sub-Saharan) heritage. Also, the use of Black Irish as anything more than a passing mention does little else other than to disenfranchize the Black African from their own social identity. Black even becomes no longer a unifying identity among the black people of the world (of which the Black Irish would have no part of). Black has been used through the ages since the word "Kush" "Kemu" and "Nehesi" were used in Ancient Egypt. Kush meaning black skinned Southerner in Africa. KEmu meaning Black Person from Egypt. Nehesi meaning Black Nubian. "Ethipian" meaning black skinned. So the word "black" has been used, simply not in English since English did not exist yet. --71.238.121.147 (talk) 03:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

ERm, the point was that for thousands of years the word "black" (not just in English but the equivalent words in Greek, Latin, Arabic, German, French, Aramaic, Berber languages, and various other languages too) used to mean "dark caucasoid". Obviously that isn't the case today. But for thousands of years there was a clear difference between a "black man" and a "n****r". Just like the word "gay". Today it means 'homosexual', but for hundreds of years 'gay', and 'gai' meant lighthearted. It is only recently that "gay" started to mean 'homosexual'. This is not the place to get into the 'Moors, Egyptians, and Israelites were Sub-Saharan' argument. I can say that the same words used to describe them were also used to describe Greeks, Italians, Turks, Afghans etc. I also noticed you used the word "African" as a racial/ethnic term. Yet this definition of 'African' does not include over 150 million North Africans, nor the Khoikhoi and San peoples, who are obviously African, but not "African", as you use it.

Getting back to the actual point, just because the word "black" today means a certain type of person(as used by some people), does not mean it was always used in that way. In fact, the modern definition of 'black' is very recent. All I was suggesting was that a paragraph or two on the historical usgae of the term, showing how it differs with the modern definition, may be included... Dr Rgne (talk) 08:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

i am wondering wether Black means sub saharan africans or just skin colour. for example, both my grandparents on my fathers side were French and on my mothers side it is half Iranian and african. i have green eyes and 'straight' hair, and i am tanned. africans calls me white and europeans calls me black.., . my point is basicaly, are mixed race people black or white ?41.220.99.64 (talk) 18:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)HConfiance41.220.99.64 (talk) 18:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Dr Rgne tried to add a paragraph abotu his personal theory to the article, but without supporting citation regarding both change in application of the term and evidence of prior historical usage, it looks like a personal version of history, and needs citation before reinclusion.ThuranX (talk) 11:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It is not my personal theory. In Peter Frost's 1990 book "History of European Ideas" this is included:

"This older, more relevant sense has been noted in other areas. The Japanese once used the terms shiroi (white) and kuroi (black) to describe their skin and its gradations of color. The Ibos of Nigeria employed ocha (white) and ojii (black) in the same way, so that nwoko ocha (white man) simply meant an Ibo with a lighter complexion. In French Canada, the older generation still refers to a swarthy Canadien as noir. Vestiges of this older usage persist in family names. Mr. White, Mr. Brown, and Mr. Black within the normal color spectrum of English people. Ditto for Leblanc, Lebrun, and Lenoir among the French, or Weiss and Schwartz among the Germans.

And apparently wikipedia has a Black Irish page too.

Joseph Ben Nathan, a medieval Jew made frequent references to Jews being "black" yet see that he looked just like modern Jews.

The phrase "blackamoor" to describe a Moor, is so well-known it does not have to be cited, yet look under the Moors page to see what Moors really (look)ed like.

I'm sure it's also well-known enough that the Ancient Egyptians were describe as "black"", yet go to http://www.geocities.com/enbp/eg_pics.html to see what the Ancient Egyptians really looked like. I'm sure everyone would agree that they don't look like "white Europeans" but they certainly aren't "black" in the modern sense either! Dr Rgne (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

you must not be aware of our Race of Ancient Egyptians article. The depiction of Egyptians as un-black is, of course, an evil Eurocentric conspiracy designed to hush up the superiority of the black race (rollseyes). dab (𒁳) 15:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And you included this citation when you added it? Further, it's one author, and his theory, one apparently drenched in the 'oh noes teh ebil white man is lying about history again' agenda. It's about as boring as the 'oh noes, all the other people was to revize teh hsitorys' agenda. Find a few citations showing this view that the meaning has been narrowed, and we'll find an inclusion, but right now, not enough for me. ThuranX (talk) 20:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not one author and his "theory" (misuse of the term). It's also not "narrowing" of the term, but an entirely new definition. The idea was to add something that stated that the term "Black person" USED TO mean one thing, and now means a DIFFERENT thing. Also, when people see Herodotus' writings stating that Egyptians were "black people" that they should be aware of the fact that what he meant by "black people" and what is today meant by "black people" are 2 different meanings. I do not understand the need for the "oh noes etc" part either. A lot of stuff has been added to wikipedia with far less informative/reliable citations/sources, but then what would be good enough for you personally? Some quotes from Shakespeare? Some NAZI propaganda about non-"Aryans"? Could you be more specific what exactly would suit your criteria? Dr Rgne (talk) 08:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

'''Reference#41'''

The source says nothing about race definitions. It should be http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_68178.htm instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbobsween (talk • contribs) 01:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Who said it had anything to do with race definitions. In fact that was the actual POINT, that "Black" did not signify someone of a different race, and only in the recent years has "black" meant someone of sub-Saharan origin. So thanks for making my point for me. Also your link is to a site giving the latter-day modern definition of "black". You haven't proved anything at all. Quite the opposite you've actually done a quite good job of giving my suggestion a stronger position. Thanks. Dr Rgne (talk) 07:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

any two individuals within a particular population are about as different genetically as any two people selected from any two populations in the world

I hope that this clear error will be fixed, and politics will not enter into the discussion. This article quotes the following from the cited paper (citation 5): "any two individuals within a particular population are about as different genetically as any two people selected from any two populations in the world"

In fact this paper states the following: "In particular, the American Anthropological Association (1997, p. 1) stated that ‘‘data also show that any two individuals within a particular population are as different genetically as any two people selected from any two populations in the world’’ (subsequently amended to ‘‘about as different’’)."

So, the paper that is cited is actually quoting a different paper, and also noting that the quotation was subsequently amended (to "about as different"). I think that the proper source should be cited, and the quotation changed to "about as different".

--137.99.117.114 (talk) 20:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)